Betrayer. Thoughts, queries, equestions. Spoilers, duh.

[Kol Saresk]

Regarding Guilliman's assault on 2 Legions with weaker forces - he was drunk on the desire for vengeance, and he almost won. Had the Emperor Titan fired it's main guns the Traitors would be destroyed.

 

The only disappointment is the stage of the Heresy we're in. The Loyalists are just going to lose at every turn.

 

Hopefully we'll see the Traitors take a mauling one day. Retribution after Terra is likely going to see some pain for the Traitors, hence why they flee.

I'm imagining that not just after Terra, but alongside and directly leading up to Terra, we'll start seeing Loyalist victories as the Traitors' charge loses its momentum and the Loyalists have reached a recovered state.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah you might be right. We know Guilliman destroys a substantial traitor fleet attempting to reinforce Horus, so I can imagine that being a big loss.

 

It's interesting we've seen the loyalists coping with trauma and desperation, and it'd be good to see how the traitors cope later on.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Also, the space battle was annoying. Why did the UM launch their pods on the surface?  They don't have orbital supremacy, so, as shown, their pods/landing craft were shot down. Why didn't they 1) wait until they had won/lost the fight or 2) launched them into the opposing ships, rather than launching them into Nuceria? Both would have been more prudent options since they would have conserved men and material in the first option/or potentially won the space battle in the second. As it was, they 1) lost the ground war because so many of their landing craft were shot down. 2) they lost the space battle.... 3) and because they lost the space battle, presumably left some Ultramarines were left on Nuceria/WB ships/WE ships.

I think you need to take into account Gullimans mind set at the time yes we know he is the ultimate tatician and so forth but the Heresy has shown us time and again that the when confronted with a brothers trechery even the calmest of them fly off the handle. Vulkan flips a Land Raider just because he is looking for Perturabo, Corax curses himself for going after Lorgar at Isstvan instead of comanding the withdrawal but was so blinded by rage, the Lion is literally pulled away from Curze screaming at the top of his lungs. So taking that into account is it any wonder that Roboute was like 'right, you you and you kill those ships. I'm going to bitch slap Lorgar!' I agree if he had lead the assault against the King ship he could have effectivly besieged the planet but think like a father who has just seen more than half of his children killed by his brother.

 

As to how tough the WB king-ships are...How was the Furious Abyss killed? It's been years since I read that book.

 

Ps. I just thought of a possible new way to destroy enemy ships. How much mass can be transported via teleporter? If it's a lot, then instead of teleporting boarding parties onto enemy ships when their shields go down, couldn't you just send a couple of pocket nukes over?

Oh gods that book! I had almost repressed any memory of it! I agree with our brother however I think it was the Space Wolf (the comic drunk Space Wolf) who carried the bomb.

 

Regarding Guilliman's assault on 2 Legions with weaker forces - he was drunk on the desire for vengeance, and he almost won. Had the Emperor Titan fired it's main guns the Traitors would be destroyed.

 

The only disappointment is the stage of the Heresy we're in. The Loyalists are just going to lose at every turn.

 

Hopefully we'll see the Traitors take a mauling one day. Retribution after Terra is likely going to see some pain for the Traitors, hence why they flee.

I did question why they landed the Imperator so close to the city considering they have an effective range of what ten+ miles... oh well. I agree, I cannot wait to read a book with some larger loyalist victories. That was probably why I loved the Crimson Fist so much (oh I am gonna get some Iron Warriors hate for that) but it was a solid loyalist victory... and a marine besting a Primarch that's saying something. Lets be honest a few of the loyalist legions need their image rehabilitating atfer some of the portrayals they've had so far. Cough Dorn and Corax cough cough.

[Blindhamster]

Crimson fist rocked...

[Marshal Rohr]

Nobody won at Phall. The imperial fists took a 5th of the legion and lost almost everybody by the end. The iron warriors got mauled pretty badly in terms of ships, but I can't remember anything about manpower.

[Barabbas Sogalon]

The Iron Warriors lost a triarch, Golg, when Polux boarded his ship.

[Excessus]

The Iron Warriors lost a triarch, Golg, when Polux boarded his ship.

But wasn't he replaced with a cooler one, so that wasn't such a big loss after all? ;)

[Wade Garrett]

The Iron Warriors lost a triarch, Golg, when Polux boarded his ship.

Eh, Perturabo punches Triarchs to death when they bring him bad news like "We won't be killing Sigismund today"; so how important can they really be?

:p

[karden00]

LOL Depthcharge, spoiler tagging the end of Battle for the Abyss. 

Really kinda funny :P

 

But yeah, Guilliman really seems to be portrayed as a much more emotional character than his reputation has suggested of him in previous iterations. 

In KNF, he readily admits that he is fighting with his heart, and not his head. And in Betrayer, his every action smacks of desperation, rather than sound strategic planning and execution. I think so far, ADB and Abnett have really been showing that he does have a soul, (despite Kor Phaeron's claim) and that he isnt just a logistical robot.

 

I for one dont mind any of this in the slightest. I've loved that weve seen a more fleshed out Guilliman, one that punches WB heads clean off in speeeeeehce, one who shows up to fight Anger-on and Lorgar just to say "Hey, you two, bugger off!" and who makes little jokes about the Lion to his momma bear. Its not as though any of these things detract from his grasp of logistics. 

 

Logistics

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Nobody won at Phall. The imperial fists took a 5th of the legion and lost almost everybody by the end. The iron warriors got mauled pretty badly in terms of ships, but I can't remember anything about manpower.

Well, personally I count it as a points victory for the Fists as they faced down a whole legion, took a mauling, boarded a Primarchs flagship, killed one of the enemies three most senior commanders and live to tell the tail. To be honest though at this point in the heresy I will settle for a draw rather than IT WAS AN ALPHA LEGION PLOT ALL ALONG LOYALISTS LOOSE.

The Iron Warriors lost a triarch, Golg, when Polux boarded his ship.

Eh, Perturabo punches Triarchs to death when they bring him bad news like "We won't be killing Sigismund today"; so how important can they really be?

That more emphisises his flaws as a commander though doesn't it brother? I mean Night Haunter could have killed Sevatar for any number of things, Dorn could have killed Sigismund for not securing Mars like he was ordered. Also, on a personal note I would have like to see Sigismund take on the three Triarchs an strut away like 'my dads better than your dad' :p but I realise that is biased

LOL Depthcharge, spoiler tagging the end of Battle for the Abyss.

Really kinda funny

But yeah, Guilliman really seems to be portrayed as a much more emotional character than his reputation has suggested of him in previous iterations.

In KNF, he readily admits that he is fighting with his heart, and not his head. And in Betrayer, his every action smacks of desperation, rather than sound strategic planning and execution. I think so far, ADB and Abnett have really been showing that he does have a soul, (despite Kor Phaeron's claim) and that he isnt just a logistical robot.

I for one dont mind any of this in the slightest. I've loved that weve seen a more fleshed out Guilliman, one that punches WB heads clean off in speeeeeehce, one who shows up to fight Anger-on and Lorgar just to say "Hey, you two, bugger off!" and who makes little jokes about the Lion to his momma bear. Its not as though any of these things detract from his grasp of logistics.

Logistics

Well I think as more of the Primarchs get fleshed out we're seeing that all of them are equally geniuses and emotional wrecks. Corax guiding his one ship from Isstvan when its got a good few hundred vessles chasing it but also leaving his sons when they are being butchered to go and gut his brother. But I agree I am enjoying Gullimans new face as it were I think its going to make his later fights with the Alpha Legion and Snake Fulgrim that much more interesting to read.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Primarchs that have walked away best from the Horus Heresy series were the ones that were all previous ridiculed. Angron became a tragic story. Guilliman demonstrates his abilities over and over. Lorgar went from being the random guy hiding in a temple to the Archprophet of Chaos. Kurze went from being clinically insane to....

 

 

well still insane, but now everybody thinks its cool. 

[Kol Saresk]

Nobody won at Phall. The imperial fists took a 5th of the legion and lost almost everybody by the end. The iron warriors got mauled pretty badly in terms of ships, but I can't remember anything about manpower.

Well, personally I count it as a points victory for the Fists as they faced down a whole legion, took a mauling, boarded a Primarchs flagship, killed one of the enemies three most senior commanders and live to tell the tail. To be honest though at this point in the heresy I will settle for a draw rather than IT WAS AN ALPHA LEGION PLOT ALL ALONG LOYALISTS LOOSE.

The Iron Warriors lost a triarch, Golg, when Polux boarded his ship.

Eh, Perturabo punches Triarchs to death when they bring him bad news like "We won't be killing Sigismund today"; so how important can they really be?

That more emphisises his flaws as a commander though doesn't it brother? I mean Night Haunter could have killed Sevatar for any number of things, Dorn could have killed Sigismund for not securing Mars like he was ordered. Also, on a personal note I would have like to see Sigismund take on the three Triarchs an strut away like 'my dads better than your dad' :p but I realise that is biased

LOL Depthcharge, spoiler tagging the end of Battle for the Abyss.

Really kinda funny

But yeah, Guilliman really seems to be portrayed as a much more emotional character than his reputation has suggested of him in previous iterations.

In KNF, he readily admits that he is fighting with his heart, and not his head. And in Betrayer, his every action smacks of desperation, rather than sound strategic planning and execution. I think so far, ADB and Abnett have really been showing that he does have a soul, (despite Kor Phaeron's claim) and that he isnt just a logistical robot.

I for one dont mind any of this in the slightest. I've loved that weve seen a more fleshed out Guilliman, one that punches WB heads clean off in speeeeeehce, one who shows up to fight Anger-on and Lorgar just to say "Hey, you two, bugger off!" and who makes little jokes about the Lion to his momma bear. Its not as though any of these things detract from his grasp of logistics.

Logistics

Well I think as more of the Primarchs get fleshed out we're seeing that all of them are equally geniuses and emotional wrecks. Corax guiding his one ship from Isstvan when its got a good few hundred vessles chasing it but also leaving his sons when they are being butchered to go and gut his brother. But I agree I am enjoying Gullimans new face as it were I think its going to make his later fights with the Alpha Legion and Snake Fulgrim that much more interesting to read.

Actually Corax tried to butcher Lorgar in the same battle his son were being butchered in. Lorgar sought out Corax, not the other way around. And actually, Corax left the fight to save what he could of his sons.

No, Corax's emotional crucible was supposed to be when he returned, made an army of clones, most of whom were mutated, used them against the Traitors and then after the Heresy, had the epiphany that he sank as low as some of his Traitor Brothers diring the Heresy and left.

Then we got Delverance Lost.

[Wade Garrett]

There is no Heresy novel titled

Deliverance Lost. NO! That was NEVER the Raven Guard's fluff! I deny it! I REJECT GAV THORPE'S REALITY, AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, Wade, all Raven Guard fluff comes from Horus Heresy book 2, First Heretic, and the Upcoming Extermination. Nothing else exists.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Actually Corax tried to butcher Lorgar in the same battle his son were being butchered in. Lorgar sought out Corax, not the other way around. And actually, Corax left the fight to save what he could of his sons.

 

No, Corax's emotional crucible was supposed to be when he returned, made an army of clones, most of whom were mutated, used them against the Traitors and then after the Heresy, had the epiphany that he sank as low as some of his Traitor Brothers diring the Heresy and left.

 

Then we got Delverance Lost.

I think it's mentioned in that accursed book that Corax left the fight to engage Lorgar... I could be wrong i have been trying my hardest to repress that book from my memory.

 

There is no Heresy novel titled

Deliverance Lost. NO! That was NEVER the Raven Guard's fluff! I deny it! I REJECT GAV THORPE'S REALITY, AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!

YES! The Raven guard have only appeared in Ravens flight, that traitor in the Night Lords story and Sharrowkyn in Angel Exterminatus.

[Marshal Rohr]

NO.

 

Raven Guard are not ninjas. Raven Guard are a specialized force that excels in striking swiftly and effectively, with little collateral damage. They are not super-sneaky.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, what I'm remembering of the fight is from The First Heretic, which was published first. So that takes precedence in my opinion. In that perspective, Lorgar saw Corax was tearing through the lines and making a path to safety for the Raven Guard. So he went after Corax. Lorgar got his rear handed to him, Curze intervened, and it slapped Corax in the face that the retreat was faltering without him leading it out so he left. The last we see of it is Curze ordering Sevatar to head Corax off and not let him escape. Which is my personal belief as to why we then see him with the Sinner's Red in Savage Weapons.

[wtwhizz]

NO.

 

Raven Guard are not ninjas. Raven Guard are a specialized force that excels in striking swiftly and effectively, with little collateral damage. They are not super-sneaky.

 

Nope.  They should just rename the Space Ninjas.  Maybe switch them from using lightning claws to throwing stars and nunchuks.  It'd be a nerd-gasm of epic proportions around here if that happened.  Right?  Right?!?!

[daveNYC]

Well, what I'm remembering of the fight is from The First Heretic, which was published first. So that takes precedence in my opinion. In that perspective, Lorgar saw Corax was tearing through the lines and making a path to safety for the Raven Guard. So he went after Corax. Lorgar got his rear handed to him, Curze intervened, and it slapped Corax in the face that the retreat was faltering without him leading it out so he left. The last we see of it is Curze ordering Sevatar to head Corax off and not let him escape. Which is my personal belief as to why we then see him with the Sinner's Red in Savage Weapons.

 

I'd like to think that Sevatar got the red hands for something more interesting that not being able to capture a primarch.  That's in 'cut down the largest tree.. with a herring' territory.

[Knight of the Raven]

NO.

 

Raven Guard are not ninjas. Raven Guard are a specialized force that excels in striking swiftly and effectively, with little collateral damage. They are not super-sneaky.

Not according to Graham "Who doesn't love space ninjas?" McNeill.

 

No, I don't like it either.

[helterskelter]

Is no one happy nykona stuck two swords of lovely blackness into lucius' mind bogglingly irritating torso?

[Conn Eremon]

Is no one happy nykona stuck two swords of lovely blackness into lucius' mind bogglingly irritating torso?

Not when the person doing the stabbing is indistinguishable from the one being stabbed.

[Scribe]

NO.

 

Raven Guard are not ninjas. Raven Guard are a specialized force that excels in striking swiftly and effectively, with little collateral damage. They are not super-sneaky.

 

See, would this have been so hard?

 

Its tough, because there is a subtle line that needs to be drawn, between 'real' gritty 30K, 'warp touched' 30K, and pseudo science 30K.

 

Space Ninja Asartes crosses that line for me.

[Kais Klip]

 

NO.

 

Raven Guard are not ninjas. Raven Guard are a specialized force that excels in striking swiftly and effectively, with little collateral damage. They are not super-sneaky.

 

See, would this have been so hard?

 

And Deliverance Lost offered a whole chapter showing that.

 

<-- This guys likes Deliverance Lost.

[Sanct]

 

Well, what I'm remembering of the fight is from The First Heretic, which was published first. So that takes precedence in my opinion. In that perspective, Lorgar saw Corax was tearing through the lines and making a path to safety for the Raven Guard. So he went after Corax. Lorgar got his rear handed to him, Curze intervened, and it slapped Corax in the face that the retreat was faltering without him leading it out so he left. The last we see of it is Curze ordering Sevatar to head Corax off and not let him escape. Which is my personal belief as to why we then see him with the Sinner's Red in Savage Weapons.

 

I'd like to think that Sevatar got the red hands for something more interesting that not being able to capture a primarch.  That's in 'cut down the largest tree.. with a herring' territory.

 

Could be related to where Rushal came from and why how he is connected to Sevetar.  (Prince of Crows)  Someone had to cause those scars, disable his speech, and encourage him to betray his legion