Knights Errant, Dark Angels, Grey Knights Discussion

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Recently i found so very interesting new info was added to the lexicanum regarding the topics listed above.  These are the articles:

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Loken#.UqE7gPRDvX4  (Knight Errant Section)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iacton_Qruze#.UqE8ePRDvX4

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights-Errant#.UqFEYfRDvX5

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Epimetheus#.UqFEY_RDvX5

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pandorax_(Novel)#.UqFOBvRDvX4

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights#.UqE9IvRDvX4 (Origins)

 

Here i hope to make some connections and work up discussion of the topics in light of this info.  Look to these articles and related articles (including sources) for info.  If there is something that is confusing, unclear, possibly false etc and cant find info yourself - ill be happy to do some searching as well!

 

The info presented here clearly states that Knights Errant formed the Grey Knights.  It is also stated that these astartes had their geneseed replaced by that of an unknown, unique source (obv their are numerous suggestions elsewhere for Emp geneseed).  Interesting enough, so far only 6 Knights Errant have been named or even referred to, which means their are 2 more members that have not been written about at all yet.  Now of those founding marines, only three of the founding grand masters of the Grey Knights are named, Janus, Khyron, and Epimetheus.  Clearly the Knights Errant had changed their names upon becoming Grey Knights, and any of those names could be the 2 as yet unmentioned Knights Errant.  For one, Epimetheus is certainly one of these unmentioned so far, as he is from the Dark Angels.  Based on images of the Knights Errant, mostly HH books, the other Knight Errant i believe is a White Scar.  Furthermore, it is said that Epimetheus was captured by Abaddon, which raises seriously scary concerns regarding geneseed.  However, given Epimetheus' personal training under The Sigilite, as a Dark Angel, and his status a loyalist Fallen, and his Grey Knight geneseed, he is likely next to impossible to convert to chaos.  Therefore, i believe that the combination of his strength of will and Abaddon's likely unwillingness to execute such a important living resource, makes it possible and perhaps even probable that Epimetheus, one of the founding 8, is still alive.  Regardless, this also means that the Tomb of the Eight is missing one of the founding Grand Master's bodies.  Additionally, the fact that the Dark Angels entire chapter intervened on Pandorax out of the blue (suggesting they knew that something on the world was supremely significant), and the fact that a member of the their number, more importantly a Fallen, was chosen to become a founder of the Grey Knights, highly suggests that their is or at least was a closer relationship between them and the Grey Knights than previously thought.  It also suggests that the Grey Knights may know or perhaps once knew more about the Dark Angels' past than the majority of the Imperium.  Furthermore, the limited info provided by Epimetheus regarding the other Fallen, applied with info already known about them, particularly Cypher, i believe suggests that Cypher and indeed other Fallen are in fact still loyal to the Emperor, perhaps not exactly the Imperium, but this could help explain some of Cypher's actions and why other Fallen are drawn to him.  As it would not make sense for other Fallen to be drawn to a Cypher if he is loyal to the Emperor and they are not.  Certainly, some of the Fallen, perhaps many, are indeed lost to chaos, but this info suggests that there are certainly some who are, like Cypher, loyal to the Emperor or at least also seek forgiveness/redemption.  They would be drawn to Cypher as a leader of such a "quest" (lack of better word sorry) because he actually has the mind and means/leverage by which to actually (perhaps by a longshot) possibly achieve that, through his actions in fighting chaos and his suspected possession of the Lion's sword.

 

All of this is based only on what i have read so far from lexicanum, which is based on varied books.  I would certainly love to hear any more detailed info from anyone who read the books, as i hope to myself.  Hopefully, i have saved some people from the time of trying to piece somethings together, but also really looking forward to what you think and any other info!

[depthcharge12]

Thank God for plot advancement!

 

 

 

this info is very titillating and I look forward to more as long as it doesn't end in "Just as Planned-ism" or another AL plot

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 It is also stated that these astartes had their geneseed replaced by that of an unknown, unique source (obv their are numerous suggestions elsewhere for Emp geneseed).

 

It's outright stated in the GK Codex the GK have the Emperors Gene Seed.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Well what can I say other then I have been blowing this horn for years.  Looking over then links you have provided, the only thing that screams out to me as unsupported is the inclusion of Umojen in the list of possible founding members.  I don't know him nor any links he might have to the Grey Knights.  You have to be carful with the Lixicanum.  Some of the information there is not right and just speculation.  Though I find it more right then most other collection of 40k lore, it is still just a bunch of fan knowledge with no official weight.  Having said that, I agree with most of the Grey Knight speculation talked about there, with the exception of the Emperor Gene-seed rumor.

 

I have become somewhat obsessed with this topic for a couple years now.  I came to it from trying to figure out Loken's fate after the end of Galaxy in Flames.  At the end of that book I could not accept his "death".   After thinking and rereading some of the opening trilogy, I started thinking that maybe he might yet live.  There was to much effort made by the authors to foreshadow life past Isstavan III for him.  Ahh those old battles here and other places.  Most thought I was smoking.  Talking about Loken could get a thread shut down quicker then smuff bashing.  I found that just saying I thought he was alive, was not getting me any ware, so I thought that I should try and figure out what he would do if he did in fact live.  I also thought that I should try and come up with a plausible answer as to HOW he could have lived through the Bombardment.  After much digging I found my sisters of Battle codex ( Wichhunters) and in it I read about Faith and the powers it could give people in 40k.  This was still too big a leap for me so I tried to find a source where Astartes had shown the powers of Faith.   Looking deeper into my library I found a passage in the Deamonhunters Codex about the Grey Knights and the Shrouding.  Showing that Astartes could also manifest the powers of Faith, and trying to figure out what Loken might have done after Isstavan III bounced around in my head until I was unable to separate them.  I began to think that if Loken had indeed lived he would have to be destined for greatness.  I got ahold of the Collected Visions of the Horus Heresy.  In it there is a chapter about the siege of Terra.  There in is a passage about how Malcador took eight loyal Astartes before the Emperor.  I thought who else could be one of the Eight if not a man like Loken.  

 

My current list of the Eight Founders of the Grey Knights.

 

Garro

Loken

Tarvitz

Varren

Rubio

Arvida

El' Zurias

Tarrasch

 

finally, I would warn you that this is a topic that has been well done here and you might encounter some resistance in your efforts to "work up discussion".  I could be wrong and maybe the dust has settled but.... yeh lets just say that it has been a touchy subject in the past.

 

[Gentlemanloser]

LLW, you have listened to the Garro Audio books, haven't you?  If not, look into the Cerberus. ;)

 

It's been a while since I read flight, but I didn't think Saul Tarvitz was on it.  Someone survived Isstavan III, but it was only a single Marine.

 

You'[re also missing (cannot spell his name!) Iocon Quaze (the half heard).  He was on the Eisenstien with Garro.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Heh,  yeh I know about Cerberus.  I also know all about the Half-heard.  He is my favorite captain of the Horus Heresy.  He is not on my list now, though there was a time he was on it.  As for Tarvitz, let me just say that I keep the Faith.   If you think that Loken was the ONLY loyalist, survivor of Isstvan III, you should read the Forge World book, Betrayal.   

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh, seems I've missed some stuff. ;) What happened to the half-heard?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The last we see of the Half- heard he tries to do his best XIX Legion impersonation, by ghosting into the I Legions fortress monastery.  Cypher busts him cold.  Good story.  Grey Angel is the name.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Thank God for plot advancement!

this info is very titillating and I look forward to more as long as it doesn't end in "Just as Planned-ism" or another AL plot

i hope so as well!

It is also stated that these astartes had their geneseed replaced by that of an unknown, unique source (obv their are numerous suggestions elsewhere for Emp geneseed).

It's outright stated in the GK Codex the GK have the Emperors Gene Seed.

perfect! official GW clearification of that then!

Well what can I say other then I have been blowing this horn for years. Looking over then links you have provided, the only thing that screams out to me as unsupported is the inclusion of Umojen in the list of possible founding members. I don't know him nor any links he might have to the Grey Knights. You have to be carful with the Lixicanum. Some of the information there is not right and just speculation. Though I find it more right then most other collection of 40k lore, it is still just a bunch of fan knowledge with no official weight. Having said that, I agree with most of the Grey Knight speculation talked about there, with the exception of the Emperor Gene-seed rumor.

I have become somewhat obsessed with this topic for a couple years now. I came to it from trying to figure out Loken's fate after the end of Galaxy in Flames. At the end of that book I could not accept his "death". After thinking and rereading some of the opening trilogy, I started thinking that maybe he might yet live. There was to much effort made by the authors to foreshadow life past Isstavan III for him. Ahh those old battles here and other places. Most thought I was smoking. Talking about Loken could get a thread shut down quicker then smuff bashing. I found that just saying I thought he was alive, was not getting me any ware, so I thought that I should try and figure out what he would do if he did in fact live. I also thought that I should try and come up with a plausible answer as to HOW he could have lived through the Bombardment. After much digging I found my sisters of Battle codex ( Wichhunters) and in it I read about Faith and the powers it could give people in 40k. This was still too big a leap for me so I tried to find a source where Astartes had shown the powers of Faith. Looking deeper into my library I found a passage in the Deamonhunters Codex about the Grey Knights and the Shrouding. Showing that Astartes could also manifest the powers of Faith, and trying to figure out what Loken might have done after Isstavan III bounced around in my head until I was unable to separate them. I began to think that if Loken had indeed lived he would have to be destined for greatness. I got ahold of the Collected Visions of the Horus Heresy. In it there is a chapter about the siege of Terra. There in is a passage about how Malcador took eight loyal Astartes before the Emperor. I thought who else could be one of the Eight if not a man like Loken.

My current list of the Eight Founders of the Grey Knights.

Garro

Loken

Tarvitz

Varren

Rubio

Arvida

El' Zurias

Tarrasch

finally, I would warn you that this is a topic that has been well done here and you might encounter some resistance in your efforts to "work up discussion". I could be wrong and maybe the dust has settled but.... yeh lets just say that it has been a touchy subject in the past.

I believe there was a story that clearifies that Umojen is a Knight Errant, but ill have to look that up. Tarvitz is not a member, in fact we do not know his fate at present. However, there were loyalist Emp Children who made it back to Terra (ill have to look that up as well). as for the other names that are not on list on lexicanum, you will have to find some sources for us to support the claim. certainly some of them could be the missing 2 members.

also, i think it is safe to say that discussion has been stirred up now!

[Gentlemanloser]

The text from page 7 of Codex: Grey Knights;

 

 

Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.

[helterskelter]

I honestly thought they were lining up Arvida for Blood Ravens. And if varren was (if he's the world eater) wouldnt the nails make his head explode. After being berrated at some point for even suggesting thst you can swap out gene seed to change marines make up, this part bothers me and part makes me think I need to start wearing a foil hat

[Wade Garrett]

My theory is that the other two Knight Errants/Founding Grandmasters will be Gabriel Santar and Legatus Orfeo.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

I honestly thought they were lining up Arvida for Blood Ravens. And if varren was (if he's the world eater) wouldnt the nails make his head explode. After being berrated at some point for even suggesting thst you can swap out gene seed to change marines make up, this part bothers me and part makes me think I need to start wearing a foil hat

 

varren is a WE but not all WE had the butcher's nails. especially Terran WEs like him.  i must admit i did not think that changing geneseed was so simple, but in light of what the chaos legions have to do for geneseed, i suppose it is possible.

 

My theory is that the other two Knight Errants/Founding Grandmasters will be Gabriel Santar and Legatus Orfeo.

 

Gabriel Santar would be cool, but that is impossible given that he was slain at the Massacre by Julius Kas-whatever-his-name-is.  I dont know who the other guy is, please enlighten me.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Lord Lorne Walkier - i realized that the name El'Zurias was familiar, and now i realize that he is my favorite pre HH/early post HH DA character.  i do hope that he is the one who becomes Epimetheus for that reason, plus he is a potent librarian.  I do believe it would make sense that the DA Knight Errant would be a high ranking member (he advised Luther) as all the others are, although that is complete speculation right now.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zahariel_El'Zurias#.UqIcifRDvX4  for those who dont know him or could not remember temporarily like me

 

Wade - Orfeo i looked up, he seems unlikely given that there is already a Ultra in the Knights Errant.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, if the idea that Iacton the Half Heard and Loken are future Granmasters is true, (both are XVI Luna Wolves), that means there'd be no bar to having 2 Ultramarines as well.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

well its that given also that Rubio is a potent librarian, fact that one of the unlisted Knights Errant is a Dark Angel and the fact there is no evidence suggesting the last member is from one of the legions already represented.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Thank God for plot advancement!

this info is very titillating and I look forward to more as long as it doesn't end in "Just as Planned-ism" or another AL plot

i hope so as well!

It is also stated that these astartes had their geneseed replaced by that of an unknown, unique source (obv their are numerous suggestions elsewhere for Emp geneseed).

It's outright stated in the GK Codex the GK have the Emperors Gene Seed.

perfect! official GW clearification of that then!

Well what can I say other then I have been blowing this horn for years. Looking over then links you have provided, the only thing that screams out to me as unsupported is the inclusion of Umojen in the list of possible founding members. I don't know him nor any links he might have to the Grey Knights. You have to be carful with the Lixicanum. Some of the information there is not right and just speculation. Though I find it more right then most other collection of 40k lore, it is still just a bunch of fan knowledge with no official weight. Having said that, I agree with most of the Grey Knight speculation talked about there, with the exception of the Emperor Gene-seed rumor.

I have become somewhat obsessed with this topic for a couple years now. I came to it from trying to figure out Loken's fate after the end of Galaxy in Flames. At the end of that book I could not accept his "death". After thinking and rereading some of the opening trilogy, I started thinking that maybe he might yet live. There was to much effort made by the authors to foreshadow life past Isstavan III for him. Ahh those old battles here and other places. Most thought I was smoking. Talking about Loken could get a thread shut down quicker then smuff bashing. I found that just saying I thought he was alive, was not getting me any ware, so I thought that I should try and figure out what he would do if he did in fact live. I also thought that I should try and come up with a plausible answer as to HOW he could have lived through the Bombardment. After much digging I found my sisters of Battle codex ( Wichhunters) and in it I read about Faith and the powers it could give people in 40k. This was still too big a leap for me so I tried to find a source where Astartes had shown the powers of Faith. Looking deeper into my library I found a passage in the Deamonhunters Codex about the Grey Knights and the Shrouding. Showing that Astartes could also manifest the powers of Faith, and trying to figure out what Loken might have done after Isstavan III bounced around in my head until I was unable to separate them. I began to think that if Loken had indeed lived he would have to be destined for greatness. I got ahold of the Collected Visions of the Horus Heresy. In it there is a chapter about the siege of Terra. There in is a passage about how Malcador took eight loyal Astartes before the Emperor. I thought who else could be one of the Eight if not a man like Loken.

My current list of the Eight Founders of the Grey Knights.

Garro

Loken

Tarvitz

Varren

Rubio

Arvida

El' Zurias

Tarrasch

finally, I would warn you that this is a topic that has been well done here and you might encounter some resistance in your efforts to "work up discussion". I could be wrong and maybe the dust has settled but.... yeh lets just say that it has been a touchy subject in the past.

I believe there was a story that clearifies that Umojen is a Knight Errant, but ill have to look that up. Tarvitz is not a member, in fact we do not know his fate at present. However, there were loyalist Emp Children who made it back to Terra (ill have to look that up as well). as for the other names that are not on list on lexicanum, you will have to find some sources for us to support the claim. certainly some of them could be the missing 2 members.

also, i think it is safe to say that discussion has been stirred up now!

You can write off Tarvitz if you like but he will remain on my list until that last possible moment when either his death is confirmed or there are 8 others who are shown to be the Grandmasters.

My reasons for this are many, and could be the topic of another thread. To say "Tarvitz is not a member" might be a bit to final. Unless you have some information I don't.

I honestly thought they were lining up Arvida for Blood Ravens. And if varren was (if he's the world eater) wouldnt the nails make his head explode. After being berrated at some point for even suggesting thst you can swap out gene seed to change marines make up, this part bothers me and part makes me think I need to start wearing a foil hat

Arvida and the Blood Ravens is a connection I am unwilling to join into. They are just one chapter among a thousand. This is too minor a story line for the likes of a hero of the Horus Heresy like Arvida in my mind. I have read all the speculation and just don't buy it. I find it more likely that Malcador, once he is returned to terra by the White Scars, would use his knowledge to bolster the Grey Knights.

As for Varren, he did not have the Butchers Nails. I don't think any of his men did.

[helterskelter]

Istvaan III is becoming a joke really. We shall destroy all our sons who arent useful. That ship is leaving... most peculiar. Go on let them bugger awf.

 

I don't think my old socks have as many holes as there are in 30 and 40k.. if I didnt like power armoured superhumans so much I would've quit this balony long ago

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Lord Lorne Walkier - well it is at the least definite that the members listed on lexicanum (except perhaps Umojen) are all confirmed. so you might want to at least revise your list to fit that. 

 

Helter - please discuss something in posts, not just state that the numerous missing details are driving you crazy.  if you were on the other hand throwing out the opinion that the traitors were not as efficient as they claimed to be in their purges as a point of discussion, then that is different.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Lord Lorne Walkier - well it is at the least definite that the members listed on lexicanum (except perhaps Umojen) are all confirmed. so you might want to at least revise your list to fit that. 

 

Helter - please discuss something in posts, not just state that the numerous missing details are driving you crazy.  if you were on the other hand throwing out the opinion that the traitors were not as efficient as they claimed to be in their purges as a point of discussion, then that is different.

Nothing has been confirmed about the 8 Founding members of the Grey Knights with the possible exception of El' Zurias.  I agree that they might all be Knight errants but this is not a automatic pass into the Grey Knights. Some or all of them could get killed before the 8 are gathered.   Even if they do become apart of the Grey Knights it dose not mean they will be the Founding Grand Masters.  It is all speculation until the Horus Hersey book about the Siege of Terra is released and there is a chapter about what Malcador dose in those final moments before he takes the Emperors place on the Golden Throne.   I don't see the Half heard having what it takes to make my list so he will remain off.  With Loken being on my list i see Qruze as being redundant.

[Sothalor]

One of the founding eight is almost certainly a Luna Wolf. Abaddon mentions that he watched his "erstwhile brother die" while taunting Epimetheus in Pandorax.

 

It's most likely Loken or that other guy from The Outcast Dead. There's supposed to be some audio drama about him or something.

 

Ah, here it is. His name is Severian and he features in Wolf Hunt.

[Kol Saresk]

Abaddon wouldn't really know about Severian. Now Loken or Qruze, that's a bit more believable. They are brothers Abaddon personally knows and feels betrayed by.

[Marshal Rohr]

Honestly, this plot line adds what to the Horus Heresy? That they gathered up the dudes to make the Grey Knights before the Scouring? Unless these Knights Errant are the guys in grey behind the Emperor in the Adrian Smith piece, they are nothing but a distraction from the main plot, and suck up time that could be used doing something else. 

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

 

Lord Lorne Walkier - well it is at the least definite that the members listed on lexicanum (except perhaps Umojen) are all confirmed. so you might want to at least revise your list to fit that. 

 

Helter - please discuss something in posts, not just state that the numerous missing details are driving you crazy.  if you were on the other hand throwing out the opinion that the traitors were not as efficient as they claimed to be in their purges as a point of discussion, then that is different.

Nothing has been confirmed about the 8 Founding members of the Grey Knights with the possible exception of El' Zurias.  I agree that they might all be Knight errants but this is not a automatic pass into the Grey Knights. Some or all of them could get killed before the 8 are gathered.   Even if they do become apart of the Grey Knights it dose not mean they will be the Founding Grand Masters.  It is all speculation until the Horus Hersey book about the Siege of Terra is released and there is a chapter about what Malcador dose in those final moments before he takes the Emperors place on the Golden Throne.   I don't see the Half heard having what it takes to make my list so he will remain off.  With Loken being on my list i see Qruze as being redundant.

Um...Actually the HH series has stated that at least those 5 are confirmed Knights Errant and that the Knights Errant become the founding Grand Masters of the Grey Knights.  It does not however, say where the other "regular" marines are formed from

[Jareddm]

I honestly thought they were lining up Arvida for Blood Ravens. And if varren was (if he's the world eater) wouldnt the nails make his head explode. After being berrated at some point for even suggesting thst you can swap out gene seed to change marines make up, this part bothers me and part makes me think I need to start wearing a foil hat

I always believed that marines would have no problem living without their geneseed and Legion of the Damned solidified that for me.  I never thought about switching geneseed but perhaps the fact that it's the Emperor's geenseed rather than one of the primarchs helps smooth out some of the complications that would be involved.