Augustus Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 ... Imagine how hard it would be to vilify the Legions and consolidate humanity against them, especially after he made sure every Primarch had a flock of remembrancers that made a copper engraving of every fart that ever left a legionary. ... Allowing a gigantic galaxy wide heresy to come to fruition would demonstrate the dangers of astartes well enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I don't think you realize just how large the Imperial Army is compared to the Legions. They can literally lose a hundred men for every dead Astartes and still have millions to spare. Not to mention the Tech Guard. Tech Guard are Admech, the Admech might decide that the don't fully trust the Emperor, especially as he's decided to off his own sons. The quantity doesn't really matter so much when the difference in quality is so large. Taking the Ultramarines, the largest Legion, 100 Army per marine is 25,000,000, not counting Guilliman who physically counts as who-knows-how-many marines in terms of killing power, but also his leadership which would inspire his sons to ever greater feats of heroism and slaughter, plus logistics. It is also a lot easier to transport say, 1000 marines, than the number of Imperial Army that would be needed to match them in battle. It would also depend on which Legion was fighting the Army. Iron Warriors would destroy them through continuous bombardment and siege warfare unless the Imperial Army happened to have siege weapons and artillery with them. The World Eaters vs Imperial Army on a plain battle? As soon as the WE got in amongst the ranks it would be a slaughter. The Legions are just too flexible for the Army to deal with. Also noting that the Legions were very much the front-line troops throughout the Great Crusade, with the Imperial Army taking on a supporting/garrison role, the Imperial Army would contain a lot less veterans and experienced troops than the Imperial Guard does. Which is the whole point of 40k, post-Heresy everything is designed to be able to kill everything else and be killed by everything else. GC era was different. Obviously a single battle is the same as the X v Y debates, either could win on the day, but in a war Legions v Imperial Army, no way would the IA win. Bold for my emphasis. There was something like 4000 Expeditionary Fleets during the Crusade. I don't think the Legions had a presence in all of them. Legion is a good look at an Expedition without a Legion detachment.Yep. Prime example would be Legion. The Expedition Fleet there didn't have an Astartes presence until the Alpha Legion arrived as reinforcements. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Expedition Fleet who's regiment was getting slaughtered by low-tech chaos tainted natives until the Legion shows up and wipes the floor with them? I guess we just agree to disagree, but in my mind the Imperial Army would be no match for the Legions united. The only possible exception that might swing it in the IA favour would be fleet warfare, as we have no idea of the number of human-manned ships compared to Astartes ships. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Slaughtered isn't the appropriate word. Hindered is better. If you choose to recall, the Nurthene only had a few cities left. Not to mention they were using warp-magick, something most Imperial forces had few defenses against, especially after Nikea. As for the ships, it was enough to make Dorn back down from a fight and he had the Phalanx, so glean from that what you will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 As for the fleet point, the incident with Dorn was after the Heresy, when Guilliman's reforms were in the process of changing everything. While Dorn's fleet wasn't hindered as such, the Imperial Navy was likely stronger. Though I would argue regardless that it wasn't the strength of the Fleet opposing Dorn that made him back down, but the realization that the Imperium thought that he was in the wrong, and that there would be another civil war against him if he refused to budge. But, at the time of the Great Crusade, the Space Marine fleets were vastly more powerful. Now, I don't think that the Legion a had to scuttle their ships as they broke into Chapters. They probably divided what they were allowed to keep among themselves and the rest was taken by the new Imperial Navy. Which means that the Imperial Army was less numerically superior than the later Imperial Navy. Whether or not it means that the Legions would be able to easily topple them, I don't know. But the Legions did have a greater navy while the Army had a lesser one at this time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 They were more powerful in that they had the larger, more deadly warships. As for numerous, that, as usual, would have been in the province of the Imperial Army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Just to clarify my last sentence, not greater or lesser than each other, but to the future versions of themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don the Oiler Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I agree that all the Legions united could probably not overthrow the Imperium against the rest of humanity. Horus nearly did, but he did have the support of a big part of the Mechanicum and countless of regular Army troops. Which is the exact point: How many thrall-planets would side with the Astartes if they were declared renegade by the Emperor? Many obviously didn't have any qualms when it was only *half* of the Legions. If they were entirely on their own and starved of any human personnel, they couldn't even leave the star system they're currently in (and i doubt the Emperor would grant them access to the webway then). But let's say all they have is their home planets, fleet and corresponding personnel, and all the rest of humanity was arrayed against them. The Legions might have to give up their planets because they'd probably get virus-bombed quickly, but ammo and fuel can be raided. I think their mastery of irregular warfare would see them through against the highly inflexible Army and Mechanicum forces. They couldn't reconquer the whole galaxy for the simple lack of forces to hold what is captured, but neither could they be made extinct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Expedition Fleet who's regiment was getting slaughtered by low-tech chaos tainted natives until the Legion shows up and wipes the floor with them? If by "wiped the floor with them" you mean "The Nurthene's Chaos magicks would have killed the XX and their Primarch if a bunch of xenos hadn't warned them to run for their lives" you are absolutely correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Expedition Fleet who's regiment was getting slaughtered by low-tech chaos tainted natives until the Legion shows up and wipes the floor with them? If by "wiped the floor with them" you mean "The Nurthene's Chaos magicks would have killed the XX and their Primarch if a bunch of xenos hadn't warned them to run for their lives" you are absolutely correct.Now now, the black cube was after the XX showed up ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 True, it was Alpharius sacrificing the Dancers to take Tet Utuan that made the Nurthene decide to go for the big "[redacted] all you star people!" Chaos ritual. But it's not kosher to pooh-pooh the Army for having trouble with the crazy hoodoo booboo juju when the same stuff would have taken down the Alphas if not for Cabal interference. And the Nurthene had giant crocodile cavalry. You can never discount the impact of giant crocodile cavalry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwatch/Grey knight Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 He scrapped the Thunder Warriors knowing there were more battles to fight post-terra. Granted, the Thunder Warriors were made to conquer terra and not the galaxy. How do we know the Astartes wont be scrapped in favour of Thunderwarriors 3.0, as you suggest? I believe that Thunder Warriors are a bad example, Astartes are believed to be "refined" and higher than Thunder Warriors so they may well be kept at hand over their predecessors. Though i would love to see more TW's coming out in the fluff as it expands. I under stand your point but then again I think thunder warriors are superior and inferior Point 1 to me they are inferior because they died after 27 years or something because they were made to conquer a world not a galaxy their geneseed was defected Point 2 the reason I think they are also superior is they are immune to psychic a abilities or the warp (correct me if I'm wrong) to me that's an advantage now imagine if the thunder warriors were fixed and didn't get killed off but the asartes was still made and they kept a force of TW for witch hunting and psychic xenos now instead of the wolves they sent this force to prospero imagine how low their losses would be It's this immune to psychic abilities makes me think that that geneseed at the end of ( I forgot the name of the book ) with that TW will be used for grey knights Now the last question to the topic Lorgar was turned first remember Sorry for being late on the topic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Thunder Warriors are NOT immune to psyker powers. True, the Thousand Son that tries to delve into a TW's mind in Outcast Dead describes it as "a fortress, with every entrance guarded by a hundred traps" but that's very different from how he reacts to the immune to psyk blank in the same novel, whom he can barely stand to look at. The Thunder Warriors may well have been more resistant to the subtler forms of control and subversion than an Astartes, but the cruder blast apart or blow up powers would have killed them just as easily as they did the Wolves and Custodians on Prospero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Thunder Warriors are NOT immune to psyker powers. True, the Thousand Son that tries to delve into a TW's mind in Outcast Dead describes it as "a fortress, with every entrance guarded by a hundred traps" but that's very different from how he reacts to the immune to psyk blank in the same novel, whom he can barely stand to look at. The Thunder Warriors may well have been more resistant to the subtler forms of control and subversion than an Astartes, but the cruder blast apart or blow up powers would have killed them just as easily as they did the Wolves and Custodians on Prospero. Thunder warriors had 4+ to deny the witch you see.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 It is also likely that the fortress-mind was that Thunder Warrior's mind and not indicative of his entire breed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 It could also be to a very rigorous routine of training one's mind to be a "fortress". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwatch/Grey knight Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 But they are more immune then asartes right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 But they are more immune then asartes right? Don't know. Literally, we do not know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 Keep in mind the particular thunder warrior in question was THE thunder warrior, so at best compare him to the Astartes' second to the primarchs' themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwatch/Grey knight Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 That reminds me have we heard from TWs since outcast dead I don't listen to audio books Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Expedition Fleet who's regiment was getting slaughtered by low-tech chaos tainted natives until the Legion shows up and wipes the floor with them? I guess we just agree to disagree, but in my mind the Imperial Army would be no match for the Legions united. The only possible exception that might swing it in the IA favour would be fleet warfare, as we have no idea of the number of human-manned ships compared to Astartes ships. Yeah the Imperials had taken the entire planet save for one city. They were really getting their tails handed to them. Not to mention all the Expeditions that never had any legion support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Meanwhile, on Tallarn... If the discussion's evolved into Astartes vs IoM, I have to say I side with the mere humans on this one, and that's without Mechanicum support. At best, the Astartes could carve out a small empire of their own due to sheer concentrated force, but if the Imperial Army felt like it, they could take a decade to mobilise and steamroll the what, a million at best, Astartes off any foothold they gain. Worst case scenario the Navy overpowers the Astartes and Exterminatuses their infrastructure. Or irrevocably poisons the world with all those corpses. In a war to the death, the Legions have a small chance. As a surviving species, its even smaller. At best you get what, 16-18th century Japan with the samurai replaced by Astartes? And then the collegia titanicas get involved... Mechanicum is a no brainer in my opinion, considering what lengths the Emperor went to in order to strike a deal with them. Saying their technological benefits overrode their military power would be incorrect, considering whole human sub-species have been exterminated for less even after showing technological superiority to the Mechanicum. So to me, pure vanilla man comes first with the mechanicum a close second, and the Astartes a distant, distant third. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 At the height of the Crusade I would say there would be a little over 2million Astartes riding around in their ships splatting the Emperor's enemies. Even with those numbers and having their own fleets and infrastructure I agree with Kais that the Imperial Army would win in a war. Numbers and the ability to replace losses in both men and equipment quickly would prove a very important factor. Although the legions could inflict horrific losses on the Imperial Army/Imperium before they could be stopped and then I would say small legion forces would carry on the fight guerrilla style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Why are we assuming that the Astartes would be on their own against the rest of the Imperium? When Horus jumped ship huge parts of the Army and the Mechanicum sided with him. Now imagine what would happen if all the Legions rebelled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Why are we assuming that the Astartes would be on their own against the rest of the Imperium? When Horus jumped ship huge parts of the Army and the Mechanicum sided with him. Now imagine what would happen if all the Legions rebelled. Now that would be one hell of a war.. Imagine this; The Great Crusade comes to its conclusion, the mighty and glorious armies of the Imperium have all but conquered the galaxy, there exists no threat to the Imperium. Mankind rules supreme. A secret council that excludes the Primarchs is convened on Terra, humanities most deadly weapons of war are no longer needed, the problem posed is how to get rid of them. Plans are drawn up for a new war, against the most deadly of foes, a war that will shake the Imperium to its core. Magnus with his gift of foresight gets wind of this greatest of betrayals and warns his brothers. The Emperor is made aware of Magnus's vision and sends a huge force of Imperial Army backed up by Sisters of Silence and Custodes to raze Prospero to the ground. On the world of Istvaan 5 several Primarchs hold council to discuss their brothers revelation, without warning a huge fleet breaks warp over the planet and the legions are attacked by Imperial Army forces.. This is probably the wrong forum for this but I hope you can see where I'd go with this. Suffice to say a scenario of all the legions rebelling would be awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3557990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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