Post-Crusade Endgame & the Legions

[Conn Eremon]

You know, the Astartes Heresy could have promise, if you take into account Karthak's last post . . .

 

It would be a nice counterpoint to the Imperial Heresy, which I would still love to expand upon.

 

No, NO! Bad Cormac! You have enough on your plate as is!

[calgar101]

Instead of it being an Astartes Heresy it would most likely be a betrayal by the Emperor (or that is how I see it), The Great Getrayal springs to mind,

[depthcharge12]

I would say that the eye of terror is a microcosm of what we expect astartes on human battle would be. and we can probably agree that after 12 times, Abaddon hasn't done that well.

 

Due to plot armor imho, the chaos legions are able to survive. It doesn't talk about the logistical nightmare the traitors would have and how the heck they would get enough food and ammo to supply their troops with, not to mention any cultist that are still human.

 

 

Unless the astartes could finish the war in just one short battle, they would be ground under the attrition that is the army

[calgar101]

Perhaps so but say if Ultramar became the legions base? Ultramar couldn't out produce the entire Imperium would it would give the legion forces a great boost.

[Conn Eremon]

Instead of it being an Astartes Heresy it would most likely be a betrayal by the Emperor (or that is how I see it), The Great Getrayal springs to mind,

In the eyes of the Astartes, of course. Just like how canon Traitors refer to the Emps as the False Emperor. But 40k is Imperial-centric, hence it being called the Horus Heresy and not the False Emperor's Betrayal. Hence, the Astartes Heresy.

[calgar101]

Agreed on that Cormac, although when I start writing about this later today I may write about it from a Space Marine point of view, so it will be an actual betrayal by the Emperor and I may not be writing it from a 40k perspective.

[Conn Eremon]

I was meaning it as short for "Warhammer 40k" the entire setting not the millennium.

 

But go for it. :)

[Wade Garrett]

In my opinion, an Astartes Heresy would go off the rails because many of the Primarchs would not cooperate with each other even with the threat of extinction hanging over their heads (Perturabo and Dorn, Mortarion/Russ and Magnus, Curze and everybody, Angron and everybody) not to mention Lion and Horus's epic fight over who gets to be the big man in charge.

[FunkyMonkey]

I'd love to see a three-way fight between Horus, Lion, and Guilliman

[Kais Klip]

They co-operated with each other just fine before the Heresy, and perhaps apart from a few broken dining tables I can imagine Horus being able to reign in his brothers just fine in the face of the scale of betrayal against them. Curze lightens up since the Emperor just publicly announced he's an a-hole, and Angron suddenly has 17 extra slave-brothers that are actually related by blood this time.

 

Question is, who's going to stop Dorn from baring his throat, or even better, fighting for Astartes extinction?

 

Perhaps so but say if Ultramar became the legions base? Ultramar couldn't out produce the entire Imperium would it would give the legion forces a great boost.

But the 500 worlds are in a midst of rebellion, unless Guilliman/A&O can persuade them to side against the Emperor. If they fail then Curze's entire legion is suddenly bogged up just securing home territory.

[Wade Garrett]

Horus couldn't rein in Konrad and Angron during the Heresy, not to mention the "Emperor made me Warmaster, so do what I say" he used to get Primarchs like Lion to obey him just evaporated.

 

Heck, Horus might go from the Primarch his brothers all liked to the one most of them hate because of his status as the Emperor's favorite.

 

And Dorn fighting his brothers to extinction? Don't you mean Mr. "I AM THE EXECUTIONER" Wolfy McWolfbeard of the VI?

[Perrin]

Baring in mind I've just got home from New Years eve celebrations and am extremely drunk:

Ultramar would undoubtedly side with Guilliman, as would all of the forces that sided with Horus during the HH, but adding all of the worlds/regiments/fleets that owed loyalty to other Legions. Horus and 8 brothers brought the Imperium to its knees, imagine if it was Horus and 17 brothers. That is essentially what we're talking about, the Horus Heresy with no loyalists. The orginial discussion was Astartes vs IA, so take away the IA elements that sided with Horus (tbf they have done nothing so far), add another 9 Legions, the IA would get slaughtered. Fleet warfare would just benefit the Legions, as they would launch boarding squads and either turn the ship over to their own fleet or destroy it from within, which would take a very small amount of actual space marines. Every fleet battle would result in the Space Marine fleet growing larger, and to my eyes that was the only advantage the IA had in the first place/

Obviously this is ignoring the AdMech.

This post took a while to write so please, even if it is nonsense appreciate the effort

[Kais Klip]

Good point, forgot about shaggy braids, but I doubt he'd follow up victory with ritual suicide as gladly as I'm imagining Dorn would, "axios" and all that. I'm not sure though, but I'm leaning on expecting Russ to eventually side with his brothers over his alpha.

 

Aye but with Angron all Horus needs to do is point him in a general direction and he'll at least get a one-use bloodbath that'll make the imperial commanders cry out "logistical overstretch" at any mention of advance for a next year. I mean I'm not seeing much of a leadership threat coming from Angron, which would be the most dangerous thing to the Astartes. Angron & Lorgar did well enough at the Heresy, I mean yes they took a few detours but they didn't exactly compromise the Heresy as much as you're insinuating I don't think. Apart from Istvaan III.

 

I agree with you on the Lion part, although I think Horus has enough backers in the form of Sanguinius and Fulgrim to silence Johnson's pride for a little bit.

 

And if a schism did erupt, the Primarchs would go their separate ways and still have sense enough to ally up against the Imperials as opportunity would dictate.

 

Baring in mind I've just got home from New Years eve celebrations and am extremely drunk:

 

Ultramar would undoubtedly side with Guilliman, as would all of the forces that sided with Horus during the HH, but adding all of the worlds/regiments/fleets that owed loyalty to other Legions. Horus and 8 brothers brought the Imperium to its knees, imagine if it was Horus and 17 brothers. That is essentially what we're talking about, the Horus Heresy with no loyalists. The orginial discussion was Astartes vs IA, so take away the IA elements that sided with Horus (tbf they have done nothing so far), add another 9 Legions, the IA would get slaughtered. Fleet warfare would just benefit the Legions, as they would launch boarding squads and either turn the ship over to their own fleet or destroy it from within, which would take a very small amount of actual space marines. Every fleet battle would result in the Space Marine fleet growing larger, and to my eyes that was the only advantage the IA had in the first place/

 

Obviously this is ignoring the AdMech.

 

 

 

This post took a while to write so please, even if it is nonsense appreciate the effort :teehee:

That uhh... that stumps me a bit.

 

The Emperor managed to get rid of the TW just fine, and it seems fair enough to assume that whole situation scales up to our question. I'd just expect him to rig some sort of death trap on "Ullanor 2.0", a la TW.

[Wade Garrett]

Why in the Warp would the traitors have all the support elements they had in canon?

 

Lorgar and the rest spent fifty years gearing up to go to war with the Emperor, suborning the loyalties of Army and Mechanicum elements, stockpiling supplies, building Xbawks HEUG warships, and so on.

 

Having the Emperor as the one laying plans for a galaxy spanning war in secret while the Primarchs bumble along in blissful ignorance is going to result in a very different balance of power when the Heresy kicks off.

[Kais Klip]

Maybe not the hard materiel that would be rigorously supervised or easily be manoeuvred out of Astartes reach, but I can envision a lord commander or two wishing to fight for the Astartes under variable circumstances, ranging from Mechanicum-esque ambition to AL putting up "Join the Big E Team" banners.

 

And then there's the countless of worlds that wouldn't know better, due to the Emperor never visiting them or the Astartes having high influence over them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm betting Astartes extinction, if the Big E can do it once he can do it again.

[Phoebus]

Meanwhile, on Tallarn...

If the discussion's evolved into Astartes vs IoM, I have to say I side with the mere humans on this one, and that's without Mechanicum support. At best, the Astartes could carve out a small empire of their own due to sheer concentrated force, but if the Imperial Army felt like it, they could take a decade to mobilise and steamroll the what, a million at best, Astartes off any foothold they gain. Worst case scenario the Navy overpowers the Astartes and Exterminatuses their infrastructure. Or irrevocably poisons the world with all those corpses.

These discussions don't take into account the mental superiority of even the average warrior of the Legiones Astartes. Mind you, I'm not talking about traditional smarts; I'm referring to their ability to process information and make tactical determinations incredibly quickly. Their battle-tracking abilities make a mockery of those of normal humans, and that's even taking into consideration the command and control infrastructure of the Imperial Army and Navy. The logistics for a campaign to conquer a single continent can require a small army of personnel - to coordinate various forces, re-supply them, etc. By contrast, a single Ultramarine Captain in the short story Rules of Engagement is able to battle-track a planetary-wide war and issue orders accordingly to his warriors. And that's not even assuming you have brainpower of the sort a Primarch can bring to bear: we all do recall Roboute Guilliman being able to work on the most important military treatise of his time while tracking all the moving pieces needed to get the largest Legion in the Imperium and their human auxiliaries ready for departure, right?

The logical extension of this goes into operational (trying to conquer planet X because it is the key to sector Y) and strategic (trying to conquer sector Y because it is the key to segmentum Z)-level warfare. The Great Crusade is like a chess game with billions of pieces vying for millions of squares on the board. Put quite simply, the Legiones Astartes would be able to determine the necessary objectives to win wars, coordinate their movements, and synchronize their various efforts with a speed and efficiency that would, again, make a mockery of the Imperial Army and Navy.

Numbers are amazing, but they're only part of the battle. History has been written by better generals and better soldiers stealing a march on their opponents and seizing key terrain, capturing strategic fortifications, ambushing their arriving opponents, etc., etc.

In a war to the death, the Legions have a small chance. As a surviving species, its even smaller. At best you get what, 16-18th century Japan with the samurai replaced by Astartes?

Not necessarily. The different Legions had different characters. It presumes a lot that all of them would think the same. Ultramar, for instance, was as close as it gets to a utopia in this fictional future: a militarized meritocracy ruled over by a benign, fair-minded dictator. Lion El'Jonson would likely have ruled over a benign military meritocracy as well, though feudal touches may have resurfaced following a successful reunion with Caliban. Fulgrim's vision of Chemos was hardly that of an oppressive Shogunate. Perturabo likewise dreamed of an enlightened utopia, whatever his personal failings were. The Khan may not have inspired an advanced society, but his vision was hardly one of telling people what to do and when. Like wise for Russ. Rogal Dorn doesn't appear to have been a tyrant by nature, though any realm of his would probably have been an enlightened dictatorship at best (I can't see him taking "No" for an answer). So on, so forth.

And then the collegia titanicas get involved...

You mean the most strategically irrelevant arm of the Imperium's war machine? The one that doesn't pack as much firepower as orbiting spacecraft, and is less surgical in its application than Space Marines or Imperial Army units? The one that is the hardest to transport and field, and that is slowest on the battlefield than anything other than a walking person? The one that is tremendously cool on paper but ultimately is justified in its existence only as the apex of Martian religious-military doctrine?

Mechanicum is a no brainer in my opinion, considering what lengths the Emperor went to in order to strike a deal with them.

For their ability to manufacture things - not for their ability to fight his wars. And where their warfighting capability is concerned, don't forget the flip-side: that not only was the Imperium willing to accept the Martians under incredibly favorable terms... but that the Martians were willing to join the Imperium, period.

Mind you, everything I'm proposing above assumes the Legiones Astartes versus the rest of the Imperium without the Emperor being a player or a factor.

[Kais Klip]

It feels an insult to answer so shortly to a hell of a post such as that, but the night is calling so allow me to throw up a short prelude.

 

One point I did take into account was the Army's mobilisation, in such that I think the sheer number of personel that will be mustered will do more harm than good on the tactical level. On the strategic level, I would be all in favour of mobilising every third man woman and child and just Chenkov-ing through Astartes lines, because otherwise the Army would be outmatched on any other level, apart from maybe off the field support (Tallarn) and long range Navy duels. It worked well enough for the Soviets who's strategy in the 60s accounted to being rewarded on how deep into enemy ground you managed to punch through to, and with the sheer numbers we are talking about I think what amounts to tipping the table to move the pieces will be enough to simply flood the Astartes away. I mean they'll run out of bolter shells and chain teeth just after the first battle (where the Mechanicum come into play). Not that facing the Army head on is what the more level headed Astartes would do, but a guerrilla campaign would hold little in discussion to my mind.

 

And in regards to the empires, that's if the Primarchs agree to co-exist with humanity, what if they go the 41m route of producing Astartes sans human stock? What I'm more referring to is a species fight, human vs Astartes, and that fight is the one I believe the Astartes will have to back out of.

 

More tomorrow : D

[Kol Saresk]

Hey, if the Guard learned anything, numbers beat anything. And when the its the Imperial Army who practices eugenics to surprising results along with minor genetic and cybernetic enhancement, it becomes a somewhat different beast than the Imperial Guard.

 

This isn't three million civilians with guns with some Thunder Warriors. These are highly trained soldiers, most of whom had to be beaten into bending the knee because the Emperor deemed them more valuable alive than dead. Say what you will, but I personally believe we are underestimating the Imperial Army.

[Wade Garrett]

As far as the tactical ability of a mortal admiral or general vs that of an Astartes, mortal Lotara Sarrin turned Roboute Guilliman's assault on Nuceria into a disaster, and I'll see your Ultramarine in Rules of Engagement (whose grasp of the planetwide war extended to blindly applying the precepts of the Codex Astartes while failing to grasp what that is supposed to accomplish until after it happens) and raise you Lord Commander Eidolon and Triarch

Harkor.

[Conn Eremon]

You can fight it all you want Wade, but we both know that Guilliman and Lorgar sitting on the couch, working together by preachin' and logisticin', is the best tag team ever, and could never be beaten by something as paltry as superiority.

[helterskelter]

Don't forget the filthy xenos, don't you think war on this scale would catch the attentions of the krork/ork, necrontyr, and other predatory sorts? The galaxy would be in such a state who would stop them?

[Phoebus]

It feels an insult to answer so shortly to a hell of a post such as that, but the night is calling so allow me to throw up a short prelude.

 

You're too kind, man.  I appreciate the kind words.  :)

 

One point I did take into account was the Army's mobilisation, in such that I think the sheer number of personel that will be mustered will do more harm than good on the tactical level. On the strategic level, I would be all in favour of mobilising every third man woman and child and just Chenkov-ing through Astartes lines, because otherwise the Army would be outmatched on any other level, apart from maybe off the field support (Tallarn) and long range Navy duels. It worked well enough for the Soviets who's strategy in the 60s accounted to being rewarded on how deep into enemy ground you managed to punch through to, and with the sheer numbers we are talking about I think what amounts to tipping the table to move the pieces will be enough to simply flood the Astartes away.

 

That's the thing:  what are they going to Chenkov?  What lines are they going to bust?  "Chenkov-ing" worked because the two armies in question operated on a largely two-dimensional battlefield and both were largely limited by the same means of transport and the same planning and command/control capabilities.  That's not the case here, though.

 

On that note, I'd like to re-emphasize the term "Space Marine".  The Legiones Astartes are certainly the premier Imperial force when it comes to conquering planets, but the point about them is that they have always been at least as good at ship-boarding operations.  If the Legiones Astartes engage the Imperial Navy either in classic void warfare, they are excluding the Imperial Army altogether.  If they do so while they are transporting the Imperial Army, they are taking away the latter's every single advantage.

 

With that in mind, the Imperial Navy and Army's only hope is that they will be able to bring to bear the myriads of resources they need to overwhelm the Legiones Astartes in time to, well, overwhelm them.  But we know that's easier said then done.  We know for a fact that they would need to bring exponentially more ships, troops, etc., to defeat the Space Marines.  The more you try to bring, though, the more variables and difficulty you introduce and the greater the likelihood that one of your moving pieces fails.

 

In other words, if the Imperial Army and Navy were able to move and coordinate ten times as many assets through treacherous terrain such as the Warp in the same amount of time as another human faction, that would be a victory in and of itself.  Again, though, you're dealing with warriors who not only need to move and coordinate fewer resources but are able to do so faster and more efficiently.  Fulgrim could have had Lord Commander So-and-So's head on a platter by the time he was able to bring enough armies and navies to "Chenkov" the Emperor's Children.

 

The final thing to remember where the Chenkov tactic is concerned is that the galactic battlefield is infinitely larger than the Russian one.  At the height of the Great Crusade, there were less than five thousand Expeditionary Fleets, but easily a million planets up for grabs.  Can you imagine what chaos the Space Marines could wreak with that kind of ratio?  How long do you think it would be before the Navy and the Army started feeling the effect of their centers of supple being destroyed or crippled, one after the other?  Concentrate forces too much, and you're losing strategic strongholds left and right.  Disperse too much, and now you're vulnerable to the superior Astartes forces.  The advantage is decidedly on the side of the more maneuverable and efficient force:  the Space Marines.

 

II mean they'll run out of bolter shells and chain teeth just after the first battle (where the Mechanicum come into play). Not that facing the Army head on is what the more level headed Astartes would do, but a guerrilla campaign would hold little in discussion to my mind.

 

I sincerely doubt the Legiones Astartes will suffer logistical constraints faster than the Imperial Navy and Army.  Unless we assume an unrealistic division of assets from the very get-go, then the Space Marines will always have possessed the forge-ships they had for the Great Crusade.  Even if they lose their fief-worlds (and even formerly backwards Caliban was able to keep the Dark Angels stocked up), they'll still have the means by which to keep their forces going.  The same can be said of Imperial Navy fleets... but not to the same extent.

 

 

And in regards to the empires, that's if the Primarchs agree to co-exist with humanity, what if they go the 41m route of producing Astartes sans human stock? What I'm more referring to is a species fight, human vs Astartes, and that fight is the one I believe the Astartes will have to back out of.

 

I don't think any Primarch would advocate species war.  The motivations of what drive a species is an interesting topic, though.  It brings to mind Herbert's Dune series.  :)

 

As far as the tactical ability of a mortal admiral or general vs that of an Astartes, mortal Lotara Sarrin turned Roboute Guilliman's assault on Nuceria into a disaster, and I'll see your Ultramarine in Rules of Engagement (whose grasp of the planetwide war extended to blindly applying the precepts of the Codex Astartes while failing to grasp what that is supposed to accomplish until after it happens) and raise you Lord Commander Eidolon and Triarch

Harkor.

 

You're citing the exception to the rule, though.  And where the Codex is concerned, respectfully, you're missing the point.  Guilliman, who possesses superhuman genius, created what was in essence an interactive program that processed battlefield information and pumped out the "Roboute Guilliman Solution" to the problem at hand.  What made it special wasn't just the fact that it gave an answer conceived by a demigod warlord, but that it was able to take into account a ridiculous amount of information.  I don't care if it doesn't the officer using it one iota smarter; it still trumps the planning and decision-making process of a general staff that involves hundreds of individuals with different warfighting philosophies trying to interpret thousands of sources of information to help one guy create a battle plan.

 

A Primarch could trump the Codex solution, of that I have no doubt.  A superior Astartes commander might also be able to pull the wool over a blind Codex user - I'll buy that, since "plot armour" allows for anything to happen.  Let's face it, though:  99 times out of a hundred, Guilliman's solution will come faster than that of an Imperial staff, and will almost always be better.  ;)

 

Cheers!

[Kol Saresk]

Actually during the Great Crusade the Imperial "Navy" was the Imperial Army. Technically it didn't exist until after the Heresy when it was separated into the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy. Until then, they were one and the same and it wasn't uncommon to find Imperial Army units aboard the warships.

[Phoebus]

That is not true, Kol_Saresk.  The Imperial Army is qualified as a separate arm from the Imperial Navy in a number of novels, novellas, and short stories.  What you're thinking of, I believe, is that, during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, individuals with high enough rank could command both armies and fleets.  Lord Commander Teng Namatjira, from the novel Legion, is the first example that comes to my mind of this:  he is an officer of the Imperial Army who also happens to be the commander of the 670th Expeditionary Fleet.

 

It's neither here nor there, though.  The Imperial Army, regardless of its name or status as an independent service, was never meant to be a force for ship-boarding operations.  Could they do it in a crunch?  Sure.  Would they pose a challenge to Space Marines?  Absolutely not.  forced to fight In an enclosed environment, and deprived of the assets that make them a meaningful force - artillery, tanks, gunships, etc. - the Imperial Army becomes fodder.

 

And again, the main point remains:  in a battlefield that's as big as a million star systems, the Imperial Navy can't prevent the Legiones Astartes from playing a devastating game of cat and mouse.  If the Navy, numbering less than five thousand Expeditionary Fleets, concentrates its numbers, it just leaves that many more systems to be exploited by the Legiones Astartes, and that many more strategic points (logistical centers, forge worlds, orbital yards, etc.) to be taken away.  If it disperses its numbers, it becomes more vulnerable to attack by a qualitatively superior force.

[Kol Saresk]

I think that's why I said "during the Great Crusade". After the Heresy, the Army ceased to exist. Instead, what used to constitute as the Army was separated into the Navy and the Guard.