Post-Crusade Endgame & the Legions

[RapatoR]

As far as the tactical ability of a mortal admiral or general vs that of an Astartes, mortal Lotara Sarrin turned Roboute Guilliman's assault on Nuceria into a disaster

 

If it was disaster, I don`t think Lotara Sarrin would comment it saying: "Lucky for us they are running." Also Fidelitas Lex would probably be in a better condition. And book clearly states it wasn`t Lotara didn't won that engagement for team Red, Trisagion did. 

 

P.S. Wade, I enjoy your posts, but you recently, I observed that you have to tendency of either oversimplifying or blowing stuff way out of proportion. I think you need to step back a little.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

As far as the tactical ability of a mortal admiral or general vs that of an Astartes, mortal Lotara Sarrin turned Roboute Guilliman's assault on Nuceria into a disaster

If it was disaster, I don`t think Lotara Sarrin would comment it saying: "Lucky for us they are running." Also Fidelitas Lex would probably be in a better condition. And book clearly states it wasn`t Lotara didn't won that engagement for team Red, Trisagion did.

 

P.S. Wade, I enjoy your posts, but you recently, I observed that you have to tendency of either oversimplifying or blowing stuff way out of proportion. I think you need to step back a little.

Er, yes and no. The Trisagion took the brunt of the attack. However the Fidelitas Lex an the Conqueror kept most of the troops from landing while also being a big enough distraction that the whole fleet didn't target the Abyss kingship.

[calgar101]

In a scenario that has Guilliman and the Ultramarines pitted against
the Imperium I would wager that the 500 worlds of Ultramar would side
with the Primarch first and foremost, yes they are loyal to the Imperium
but only because Guilliman is loyal. As well as being the one
responsible for building Ultramar and ruling it in a utopian like
manner, Guilliman also has over 250,000 Astartes and a large fleet to
enforce his will. I think it would be safe to say that Ultramar, its
large fleets, armies and manufacturing and recruitment pool (for both
Astartes and Army) would side with Roboute and the legions. This is not a
war winner by any means but the ability to replace losses in man power
and equipment should not be underestimated and Ultramar has over
1billion human troopers that can either be used as garrison troopers to
free up legion forces.

Now other legions also have access to
recruitment and manufacturing worlds, how long these worlds would last
in a hostile Imperium is not known but legion home worlds would put up a
good resistance with even a skeleton defence. For this rebellion to
work the legion forces would need to be on the offensive, any glorious
last stands or any sort of siege would allow the Imperial Army time to
concentrate its forces and grin the Space Marines to dust. A 'death by a thousand cuts' type of strategy would have to be enacted on a galactic scale.

As for the Primarchs working together, perhaps them facing extinction
would allow them to over come their rivalries with one another long
enough? Horus could remain Warmaster, there would be some who would
object but the need for a strong leader would be important and who more
qualified than Horus? Perhaps some squabbling but I don't see it being a
huge problem as the legions would probably act independently of each
other largely.

 

Angron would have one hell of a time burning world after world, whilst the terror tactics of Curze and guerrilla style of Corax would be very much suited to this war.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

A full on scale battle would be awesome to see though but it would have to be on ullanor or Armageddon ( which ones bigger ) it would be most bloodiest long war of all time

 

And Honestly IA vs the legions does anyone have to think about this yes given in mind once land there forces and artillery and armour the legions will get bogged down but they have to land first and maybe some ships would get lucky to drop there forces but think about it

 

A void warfare with the legions is something you really can't get past as phoebus pointed out they wernt made for boarding-ship warfare it would be massacre if they tried it and not only that but you gotta worry about the flagships like the .. Phalanx,vengeful spirit , conquer, furious abyss ( given it was made ) and all the others and then you have Magnus ripping apart ships left and right unless the Big E is having a mental battle with him

 

And each ship lost for IA could be 2% of there force destroyed so yeah

[Don the Oiler]

The "1000 Chapters with 1000 Marines" doctrine was devised with the very real fear in mind of Astartes trying to overthrow the Imperium again. Granted it was devised by a Primarch so he might have been biased.

I still think post-Crusade the Legions couldn't overthrow fragg, they might blitzkrieg almost any planet they want, but what forces would they want to hold them with?

But on the other side, hunting the Legions to extinction is a sisyphean untertaking as well, they'd just raid planets for whatever support they need and elude when there's a fight they can't win. Ironically, they might flee into the Maelstrom or the Eye of Terror because they're ignorant of what's going on in there.

And i still don't think that was the Emperor's intention to begin with, he could dump the Thunder Warriors quickly because he knew he had the Space Marines if things escalated. Why annoy every Legion with remembrancers when you intend to declare them renegades afterwards?

 

Of course, in the end it comes down to plot armour/plot device. The Emperor might send a couple of hundred Custodes into each Primarch's bedroom via the Webway. Or maybe shutdown the Astronomican.

[Brother-Kezek]

With a mind as powerful as The Emperors', he may have just had every marine put a bolt pistol in their mouth and pull the trigger. He already proved his mind could over power a Primarch's when he had Logar and his legion take a knee in The First Heretic.

[Don the Oiler]

He already proved his mind could over power a Primarch's when he had Logar and his legion take a knee in The First Heretic.

 

Yes, psychically untying an entire Legion's bootlaces was the one power he was feared for by the Chaos Gods as well.

[Brother-Kezek]

 

 

 

He already proved his mind could over power a Primarch's when he had Logar and his legion take a knee in The First Heretic.

Yes, psychically untying an entire Legion's bootlaces was the one power he was feared for by the Chaos Gods as well.

The God's don't like folks messing with their shoes.

[Phoebus]

I think that's why I said "during the Great Crusade". After the Heresy, the Army ceased to exist. Instead, what used to constitute as the Army was separated into the Navy and the Guard.

 

"During the Great Crusade" is precisely when the Imperial Army existed, as its own branch of the Imperium's military.  That continued during the Heresy.

[calgar101]

Shutting off the Astronomicon is a two way road, it would hamper the Imperium. Also it is not the only thing that can aid in warp travel and Magnus and his sorcerers could come with an alternative. The Imperial webway may allow for some troop movement but Navy ships would be too big, also not every world would be connected.

[Don the Oiler]

Yes i also think Webway and Warp Storms should be kept out of "who would win" scenarios. Just wanted to mention that if there ever was to be a codex/novel/younameit about this scenario, the outcome would entirely depend on the author's whim.

And if one of these scenarios involves blinding the Legions Warp travel or sending Custodes into bedrooms via Webway, i can claim the idea was stolen from me.

[calgar101]

Agreed on that.

 

A huge assault on the Palace could be achievable, Horus's favourite tactic of going for the throat. Could Terra withstand a concentrated attack by 18 Primarchs and their legions?

[Don the Oiler]

Now it gets interesting. Assuming all 18 (or 20? What scenario are we discussing now?) Legions somehow manage to skip past every defense and land with all their Legionnaries on the Imperial Palace? No chance for Terra. Not even with the Emperor walking among the defenders. Whatever trick he might have up his golden sleeves, he obviously didn't play it on the actual Siege of Terra, so i'm assuming he doesn't have more here. The Legio Custodes and Sisters of Silence might make the battle a little more interesting, but against millions of Astartes and their Primarchs? He might as well bomb the damn planet to kingdom come.

But what would the Legions gain? What kind of administration would the Primarchs agree upon that was fundamentally different from the Emperor's vision?

[Wade Garrett]

And book clearly states it wasn`t Lotara didn't won that engagement for team Red, Trisagion did.

 

"But Lotarra's efforts left the forces making planetfall a fraction of what Guilliman's armada had hoped to land."

Betrayer, p. 374

 

Gee. That looks an awful lot like third person omniscient narration stating that Lotarra Sarrin was the one who put a spike in the spokes of Guilliman's assault on Nuceria.

 

As far as blindly applying the Codex goes, the prosecution submits the Uriel Ventris novels. All of them. The prosecution admits to feeling dirty as it does this, because in the past it has bemoaned the depiction of the Codex in those novels and speculated that they are in-universe fan fiction of the spiteful Chapter Master of a non Codex chapter, but what does personal integrity count for when weighed against winning an online argument?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I think that's why I said "during the Great Crusade". After the Heresy, the Army ceased to exist. Instead, what used to constitute as the Army was separated into the Navy and the Guard.

"During the Great Crusade" is precisely when the Imperial Army existed, as its own branch of the Imperium's military. That continued during the Heresy.

I don't understand what you are trying to say by repeating what I just said.

 

All I said was that during the Great Crusade, the Imperial Army was the Imperial Navy as well. And that after the Heresy, the Imperial Army was divided into two branches, the Imperial Navy(the space fleet) and the Imperial Guard(the ground troops). You were talking about the Astartes fighting the Imperial Guard and Navy. That is a different creature from the Imperial Army, which was the amalgamation of the two. That's all I pointed out. Maybe something got missed here, but I don't know how what I said was untrue when I said "during the Great Crusade the Imperial Army was this" and now it is being repeated back to me. Did we miss something somewhere?

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

Honestly I think we should make this a project

[Wade Garrett]

In which I ramble a great deal:

 

The thing about a small and mobile force (Astartes Legions) versus a lumbering behemoth (Imperial Army) is that small and quick can't get into a slugging match with big and slow.

 

The problem the Legions will face is that the Army knows where their forge and recruiting worlds are, and has the numbers to defend its turf while hammering away at Caliban, Sarum, and the rest.

 

Meanwhile, the Legions can either defend these vital areas or bleed the Imperium, but doing both at the same time?

 

They'll want to avoid big set piece battles, but the Imperium at large will be able to force those confrontations simply by hitting them where they live.

 

It's why in real life, guerillas and partisans will bail on a stronghold once the big lumbering conventional enemy discovers it, to avoid an attrition grind they won't win.

 

But Fenris, Olympia, Baal, etc aren't exactly things you can pick up and move.

[Don the Oiler]

Defending their homeplanets would be hopeless, they'd lose all the edge they have in a defensive battle and only a handful of cyclonic torpedoes would have to get through. Purely fleet-based they'd have a chance, raiding what they need and striking where they see fit.

In fact, i see a much greater threat in the Officio Assassinorum than in the Army/Navy/Guard/Whatever.

[Phoebus]

 

And book clearly states it wasn`t Lotara didn't won that engagement for team Red, Trisagion did.

"But Lotarra's efforts left the forces making planetfall a fraction of what Guilliman's armada had hoped to land."

Betrayer, p. 374

 

Gee. That looks an awful lot like third person omniscient narration stating that Lotarra Sarrin was the one who put a spike in the spokes of Guilliman's assault on Nuceria.

 

As far as blindly applying the Codex goes, the prosecution submits the Uriel Ventris novels. All of them. The prosecution admits to feeling dirty as it does this, because in the past it has bemoaned the depiction of the Codex in those novels and speculated that they are in-universe fan fiction of the spiteful Chapter Master of a non Codex chapter, but what does personal integrity count for when weighed against winning an online argument?

 

Wade, you have to acknowledge that the background material has evolved since those novels.  There are a number of examples of this besides above and beyond the Codex Astartes evolving from a literal book to an interactive tactical analysis program.  Either way you crack it, though, Lotara is clearly the exception to the rule: a number of human commanders have been showcased in the Horus Heresy series thus far, and none have impressed as much as she has - never mind earned the respect of a primarch to such a degree.

 

Furthermore, the whole Lotara example is kind of neither here nor there in that she qualified that her force outgunned that of the Ultramarines - just not to the extent that it could prevent them from landing their troops.  Beyond that, I'm not sure that it's fair to cite her abilities to begin with.  Her experience was gained fighting for the Legiones Astartes, and Imperial Navy officers operate under different doctrine, traditions, etc.  Comparing the two is like comparing German field marshals and Czarist officers from World War I - completely different schools of thought achieving completely different results.  :)

[Wade Garrett]

What you say is true, and she wouldn't be on the Imperium's side in any event.

 

Lotarra was just the first example I thought of a human out tacticking an Astartes.

 

There are more if we look at "modern" 40k, Ibrahim Gaunt, Yarrick, Urskuar Creed, and so on, but I don't think it's kosher to use them as examples in a 30k Imperial Army vs Legio Astartes discussion.

[Phoebus]

All I said was that during the Great Crusade, the Imperial Army was the Imperial Navy as well. And that after the Heresy, the Imperial Army was divided into two branches, the Imperial Navy(the space fleet) and the Imperial Guard(the ground troops). You were talking about the Astartes fighting the Imperial Guard and Navy. That is a different creature from the Imperial Army, which was the amalgamation of the two. That's all I pointed out. Maybe something got missed here, but I don't know how what I said was untrue when I said "during the Great Crusade the Imperial Army was this" and now it is being repeated back to me. Did we miss something somewhere?

That's the thing, I'm not repeating you: the Imperial Army and the Imperial navy are not the same thing. I'm not trying to be rude with the bold print, but I can't state that more plainly. Even during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, the two were distinct branches of the Imperial military.

Beyond that, I don't know how you interpreted I was talking about the Space Marines fighting the Guard and the Navy; I have repeatedly mentioned the Army and the Navy and even made a point of mentioning the fact that the Army was not meant to fight ship-boarding operations.

The thing about a small and mobile force (Astartes Legions) versus a lumbering behemoth (Imperial Army) is that small and quick can't get into a slugging match with big and slow.

That's not necessarily true; in fact, there are plenty of historical examples to the contrary. And again, that assumes that moving a big force is as simple and quick as moving a small force. That is demonstrably not true.

The problem the Legions will face is that the Army knows where their forge and recruiting worlds are, and has the numbers to defend its turf while hammering away at Caliban, Sarum, and the rest.

To what end? It has been qualified that the Space Marine Legions had the means to re-supply themselves in transit. We can't assume that they simply lose all the support assets that they had anymore than Horus did when he began his Heresy.

The single greatest logistical challenge to the Legiones Astartes will be keeping their warships properly repaired. Would the Imperial Navy be able to protect each and ever shipyard from them? I sincerely doubt it - see below, about the size of Imperial Navy fleets.

Meanwhile, the Legions can either defend these vital areas or bleed the Imperium, but doing both at the same time?

They don't have to do so, though. Those home planets are certainly very convenient for the purposes of resupply and easy manpower, but - with the exception of Ultramar - they are symbolic more than anything else. Both the Ultramarines and the Red Scorpions have proven that you don't need a specific stock of hardened Death World survivors to make Space Marines: you need genetic compatibility and the right social engineering to prepare them for becoming a Space Marine. The Legiones Astartes could simply take however many thousands of children they wanted from conquered worlds.

Bottom line, the Legion's culture and society is the Legion itself. It's the Imperium that is obligated to defend the worlds that belong to it.

They'll want to avoid big set piece battles, but the Imperium at large will be able to force those confrontations simply by hitting them where they live.

See above. A modern Chapter, on average, possesses two or three Battle Barges, half a dozen or so Strike Cruisers, and three or four times that many rapid strike vessels. We can use these figures to extrapolate likely numbers for a Legiones Astartes fleet a hundred (or more) times that size... and that still wouldn't include the Imperial Navy warships that will inevitably have taken their Space Marine masters' side in the war.

Why do I bring this up? Because Sector Battlefleets are typically mentioned as numbering 50-75 battleships and cruisers, not including escort squadrons. Sectors encompass hundreds of worlds. This gives you and indication of just how spread out the Imperial Navy would need to be to even attempt to adequately protect the Imperium. We know that isn't enough, though. It's why the Navy is typically on patrol and acting as a reactive force, responding to various emergencies because it can't be everywhere at once.

Fact is, the Legiones Astartes will be able to fight the Imperial Navy in battles of their choosing and desired scale far, far more often than the reverse.

It's why in real life, guerillas and partisans will bail on a stronghold once the big lumbering conventional enemy discovers it, to avoid an attrition grind they won't win.

This isn't guerrilla warfare, though. It's no more guerrilla warfare than when Alexander the Great marched into Persia. ;)

Lotarra was just the first example I thought of a human out tacticking an Astartes.

Does she? I might have to re-read the pertinent chapters of Betrayer. I was under the impression that the Ultramarines were less interested in the void battle and more invested in landing troops on Nurceria, to strike a retributive blow against Lorgar and Angron. It's even qualified that their fleet appears cobbled together from what Guilliman had available, with many ships being damaged, etc.

There are more if we look at "modern" 40k, Ibrahim Gaunt, Yarrick, Urskuar Creed, and so on, but I don't think it's kosher to use them as examples in a 30k Imperial Army vs Legio Astartes discussion.

I'd be careful even with those examples. Creed is going to be the exception to the rule; he's like Macharius in that sense. Gaunt is a brilliant commander, but his shining moment against Chaos Space Marines was leading an ambush against an arrogant undermanned squad out to torch a village. By contrast, in Salvation's Reach, Gaunt's plan doesn't impress even regular battle-brothers from three different Chapters.

[Kol Saresk]

Except the Imperial Navy didn't exist in the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. It was all the Imperial Army. There was an Imperial Fleet, but it was a division of the Imperial Army, much like how the U.S. National Guard are a division of the U.S. Army.

 

For reference:

 

Imperial Army

 

Imperial Guard

 

Imperial Navy

[Conn Eremon]

To respond to the quibble about the Imperial Navy/Army/Guard/Military thing, I have to speak in Kol's favor.

 

The Imperial Navy does not exist during the Great Crusade and Heresy. It is born simultaneously with the Imperial Guard, as a division of the responsibilities and authorities of the Imperial Army, as part of the same decrees that saw the Legions broken down into Chapters and much of their void teeth pulled. If the Imperial Navy already existed, then the Imperial Army would have been simply renamed the Guard. That is not the case.

 

You might see the word Navy, especially if the author is trying to distinguish the differences between the components of the Imperial Army, but it is all still part of the Imperial Army. More often than not, however, they label them fleets or ships, or more fully the Expedition Fleets. Because they don't have an overarching organization outside of the Imperial Army.

 

Edit: Blargh, put the phone down and didn't refresh the page when I picked it up again. Ninja'd.

 

Edit the 2nd: Gaunt isn't an example of a mortal taking down Astartes. He is an example of a bottom rung officer of an incomprehensibly vast military that adequately proved himself a thorn in their side. He is an example of the ability of mortals to kill an Astartes empire by a thousand cuts. He is an example of how attrition will favor the mortals.

[Don the Oiler]

In this "who would win" scenario we should probably first establish (at least everyone for himself) at what point one side has won and the other lost. Horus wanted to overthrow the Imperium, for which he had to reach Terra and kill the Emperor before loyalist reinforcements would result in a stalemate or worse.

Now if the Legions ware declared renegade by the end of the Crusade, would they even try to achieve something similar? Would they even bother to unite to a coherent fighting force, or split into countless warbands? Mass suicide, because they obviously can't serve their primary purpose of defending humanity and their Emperor any longer?

And the Imperium, would it be content if the Legions wouldn't have any say in Imperial matters any longer and just stayed at their own little empires, or would they seek out to kill every single Space Marine there is?

[calgar101]

The idea that I was running with was that the Emperor had decreed that the legions need to go the way of the Thunder Warriors; the Emperor issues an Edict of Annihilation against his Sons.