Post-Crusade Endgame & the Legions

[Kol Saresk]

It actually seems like more than a few would just "go their own way". Night Lords, White Scars, World Eaters, basically the Legions who don't care for empire building. Those who do would either attempt to claim(or keep in the case of Guilliman) and maybe even challenge the Emperor.

[Kais Klip]

Thats another point; I agree with Scars and the Night Lords, maybe even the Alpha Legion, not being too taken with the conflict at hand (the former would have their mantra proven entirely true), but the World Eaters, Angron in particular, along with Corax and Mortarion would without a doubt go out of their own way to fulfil the sole intention of killing the Emperor, who they would see as the epitome of a slaver and a tyrant after their love for him dies away with betrayal.

 

In terms of drawing the lines of victory, it would be more interesting to say the Emperor's plan to quietly eliminate the Primarchs had floundered at the very beginning due to some slip, but still succeeded in hamstringing the Primarchs in some way (think Istvaan, or actually, and forgive me for bringing that HappyLight filth into this forum, Order 66, which is incredibly apt now that I consider it). It would be due to focus on the Legions that wouldn't be so quick to focus on a guerrilla war, but if someone insists I'm sure we can pit the Inquisition against Corax and A&O in some way. Lets focus on the manly stuff, though :D

 

I reckon Sanguinius is a flip of a coin; on one hand he could just Dorn it and "axios" away due to his feelings about mutations, but on the other he could flip and BFF it with Horus on the hate scale.

[Wade Garrett]

I'd say Gaunt's ambush and annihilation of a World Eaters force and the derailing of an Iron Warriors led siege suggest he can play very well with the boys in power armor.

 

Also, I would very much like a source on this whole "The Legio Astartes can just pull armor, bolt rounds, promethium, and everything else they need out of thin air."

 

Even Robby G needed 500 worlds to work his LOGISTICAL magic.

[Don the Oiler]

I wouldn't call a strike cruiser blitzraiding an undefended world "pulling out of thin air", but depending on the amount of PDF stationed there it might well be close to it.

 

The Imperium might annoy the Legions by producing nothing but Lasguns any more, but i see the greater challenge in acquiring new recruits if they don't want to die out in the long run.

But noone knows where the Alpha legions recruits their flock, so even that obstacle can be overcome.

[Wade Garrett]

Raiding will only get you so far. Look at the state Tenth Company of the VIII or the Marines Malevolent are in.

 

Without infrastructure and industry the Legions wither and die. Assuming they don't all hole up in the Eye and Maelstrom, but that comes with its own issues. Look at the corrupted Emperor's Children in Angel Exterminatus.

 

Those dingbats couldn't go grab a gallon of milk from the grocery store without getting half their warriors killed in a fratricidal blood orgy.

[Kais Klip]

I'm a bit short on my 41m reading atm, but how are the traitor warbands doing re: producing astartes without human stock?

[Kol Saresk]

I'm a bit short on my 41m reading atm, but how are the traitor warbands doing re: producing astartes without human stock?

Some reproduce from slave labor. Others reproduce by kidnapping. Some find children of societies being beaten into submission by the Imperium and take in the kids. In other words, they do have "human stock". It just isn't necessarily in their ownership.

[Perrin]

I'm not sure it would strictly be Astartes vs Humanity. Looking at the HH for example, Horus executes the DSM, news reaches Terra, open-warfare erupts, the Legions + Imperial Army + AdMech are split in half, declaring either for the Emperor or Horus. Going with the Order 66 scenario that was mentioned a few posts back, rather than a trap, assassination campaign or surgical strikes against each Legion before news can spread, if the Legions can avoid a DSM style ambush, or avoid any large-scale battles for a few months/years then more and more Imperial forces may start to decide that actually, the Primarchs have done much more for them than the Emperor, or that they could gain more power for themselves by seeking to upset the status-quo.

 

There would always be those who would choose the side of the Primarchs simply because they see it as a way to advance themselves which otherwise would not have happened, rather than any kind of feeling of support towards either side. Look at how much of the AdMech turned with Horus just because he offered them forbidden knowledge that the Emperor said was naughty. Sure Horus and Lorgar had a while to plan and turn a lot of key figures before openly starting the betrayal, but the Primarchs could do that during the opening years of the conflict, if they managed to avoid a battle.

 

As for tactics/strategy wise, there is so much the Astartes could do that the Imperial Army just wouldn't. Drop Pod assaults for example, a well known tactic of the Legions, imagine Horus and the Luna Wolves drop-poding on top of the IA basecamp and destroying, obliterating, slaughtering, annihilating their Command structure. Of course that would rely on Orbital superiority, but with the Alpha Legion onside that supply barge that has just arrived from Mars with a bunch of new lasguns could be packed to the rafters with angry Space Marines.

 

Getting all of the Primarchs to cooperate would be a problem, especially with some of the more independent ones like Angron, Curze and the Khan, but setting up a war council where all parts are equal could go some way to ease the problem. With the knowledge that they are fighting for their very existence, and the existence of their sons, it could even get Angron to go along with the majority vote.

 

 

Thinking of it though I imagine it would go down more like Kais Klip said, that the Emperor would rig some sort of trap in Ullanor 2.0 rather than risk open-warfare with the Legions. Something like a tea party that all the Primarchs are invited to, but they quickly realise that there's a vortex missile inside the cake, not a stripper.

 

 

EDIT: Changed a word for clarity

[Kol Saresk]

Decimation really isn't that bad. A high risk strike that only results in a tenth of the Army forces being lost? That's one heck of a defense.

[Perrin]

The more common meaning of the word, to destroy or kill a large proportion of, not the Roman military tradition of killing one in ten, and I'm sure you knew what I meant

I've edited the post anyway, hopefully it is a bit clearer now.

[Marshal Rohr]

My personal theory is that once the great crusade in real space was finished, the legions would have been tasked with cleaning out the web way. Once that had been finished, I'm at a loss, but I think the Emperor would've used them there because of the insane stuff hiding between the universes.

[RapatoR]

 

And book clearly states it wasn`t Lotara didn't won that engagement for team Red, Trisagion did.

"But Lotarra's efforts left the forces making planetfall a fraction of what Guilliman's armada had hoped to land."

Betrayer, p. 374

 

Gee. That looks an awful lot like third person omniscient narration stating that Lotarra Sarrin was the one who put a spike in the spokes of Guilliman's assault on Nuceria.

Before that you got sentences like: "Even so, she estimated the odd were about even ... Plenty of the Ultramarines armada already looked wounded or cobbled together ... it was clearly a ragtag strike force..." and so on.

 

Lotarra several times acknowledges importance Trisagion for example: "We'd have lasted less than three minutes without her (Trisagion).

 

Then you got: "If she had been leading that enemy fleet, she knew how she'd roll the dice in this fight." and her tactic exactly matches that of Guilliman, later there is similar mention - so this suggests that they were at least equally capable. Then the ships of the Red team are picked apart and unable to support each other - Lotarra can't do anything about it and every big ship basically does it's own thing.

 

Lotarra is a commander of single ship, that decides to (do let's say a World Eatery thing) don't give up ground and focus Conqueror on those ships that carried troops and titans at cost of damage to the ship. (There is also mention of those ships being wounded by Trisagion beforehand.) This is emphasised further by: "He admired Lord Guilliman’s plan. Although it suffered from the unexpected presence of the Word Bearers king-ship, and Lotara’s tactical refusal to give ground unless she had no other choice."

 

So yes you got one quote but you got context. Context that shows that Lotarra was important but not that important.

Also the whole engagement is miles away "showdown of the tactical ability of a mortal admiral or general and turning assault into disaster" as you claimed in the original post.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that Lotarra did accurately call how the fight was going to go. Wade never once said that she thought she would win. Unless I missed something somewhere. He said that she could keep up with Astartes tactics and predict them, which was true. She did accurately predict that the warships would go for the Trisagion while the troop carriers went for the planets, which is exactly what happened.

[Don the Oiler]

I think that whole UM fleet appearance was an awkward plot device, i wouldn't set too much value in whatever made that exact amount of Ultramarines land on the planet.

Lotarra was an exellent fleet commander who used all the assets she had in the most efficient way possible, a Legion commander probably couldn't have done any better.

But she didn't really "outsmart" Guilliman, if anything he was gambling (hoping for a smaller force as opponent) and more or less lost.

He couldn't just turn tail and run, so he saw his thing through and accepted his losses.

 

Now landing that Imperator Titan in direct vicinity of the enemy force without giving it enough time to even fire a single shot, THAT was a stupid waste!

[Wade Garrett]

I may be failing at communicating what's in my head to my posts, tis true.

 

Let me try and clarify:

 

Yes, the kingship was a game changer and without it all the Traitors would have died.

 

But at the same time, it's acknowledged repeatedly that it's thanks to Lotarra going above and beyond in keeping the Ultramarines from getting boots on the ground that Roboute's plan for the ground battle went up in smoke.

 

No kingship, everybody dead, agreed. But no Lotarra, Angron and Lorgar drown in a blue tide, Rob bangs his powerfists together and roars "LOGISTICS!" to celebrate. And then maybe the kingship nukes him from orbit, or maybe it doesn't, but hey. He won on the ground.

 

Thus, Lotarra, though a mortal, was instrumental in turning Guilliman's attack on Nuceria into a disaster.

 

Is that better?

[Phoebus]

Except the Imperial Navy didn't exist in the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. It was all the Imperial Army. There was an Imperial Fleet, but it was a division of the Imperial Army, much like how the U.S. National Guard are a division of the U.S. Army.

 

For reference:

 

Imperial Army

 

Imperial Guard

 

Imperial Navy

 

With respect, two of those links make statements that aren't even cited.  One of them properly cites a source - Codex: Imperial Guard, 5th Edition - but it it only tenuously supports the idea of a single military arm:

 

 

The Imperial Army, as it was, ceased to exist.  The link between fleet and army was severed - never again would ground commanders be given direct control over interstellar ships.

 

That single statement is contradicted by numerous other sources, though.  Consider that, in every single Horus Heresy novel, Army officers are qualified specifically as such, and listed separately from Expedition Fleet officers.

 

I think what's happening here is that you're seeing an Army officer appointed as Lord Commander of an entire Expeditionary Fleet and assuming they are all one branch of service.  That's not the case, though.  Consider the U.S. forces (or, heck, those of the British Empire, and later the Commonwealth, as well) in pretty much every war of the 20th and 21st centuries:   a single officer is given command over all forces engaged in a campaign - to include those of other branches.  These forces are the Expedition Fleets, which included ground troops, naval vessels, fighter and bomber squadrons, and - if they were lucky - Titans.  There was always a division between those assets, though, just as there was a division between Air Force, Army, Marine Corps, and Navy assets in Iraq - despite all of them answering to a single General of the U.S. Army.  It's why Imperial naval personnel are consistently shown as having different rank structures, different chains of command, etc., in the novels.

 

The reason why confusion can arise is because those commanding officers of the Imperium were always members of the Imperial Army.  That's simply an echo of our own history, though:  because the Army (of practically any modern nation as well as the fictional Imperium) possess the preponderance of assets and maneuver forces, its commander generally also serves as the overall commander.  The navy's lack of mention is simply a by-product of it being a supporting arm to the ground forces.  Beyond novels, though, we know from books such as Forgeworld's Heresy that there were Admirals as well as Generals.  That distinction is meaningless unless there is a navy.

 

The big change after the Heresy was that the overwhelming majority of the Imperium's military efforts were no longer under the command of a single individual.  Unless your name is preceded by titles like "Solar" or "Warmaster", the Navy is simply giving you a lift.  You can request and coordinate orbital bombardment, but you can't tell them how and when to fight.  Unless you have one of those two titles, you can be a General Patton... but you can't be a General Eisenhower.

 

Closing note:  I don't have the Collected Visions in front of me.  Once I get a chance to look at them again, the first thing I will do is search through them for anything that states Imperial Army = ground forces and naval assets under one service branch.

 

I'd say Gaunt's ambush and annihilation of a World Eaters force and the derailing of an Iron Warriors led siege suggest he can play very well with the boys in power armor.

 

Let's be fair here:  you're comparing an effort supported by two Iron Warriors to an invasion spearheaded by a Company or a Chapter of the Legiones Astartes.  That is to say, it's not a fair comparison at all.

 

Also, I would very much like a source on this whole "The Legio Astartes can just pull armor, bolt rounds, promethium, and everything else they need out of thin air."

 

It's not thin air, though.  The latest source I can think of is Forgeworld's Heresy, which qualifies that the Expedition Fleets of the Imperium included Mechanicus Arc-ships, purveyor vessels, etc.  We're not going to assume that the Legiones Astartes suddenly lose those assets, are we?  ;)

 

Raiding will only get you so far. Look at the state Tenth Company of the VIII or the Marines Malevolent are in.

 

Tenth Company and the Marines Malevolent were renegades operating in a vacuum, though.  We can't compare their challenges or their capabilities to those of hundreds of Legiones Astartes fleets operating in concert.

 

Edit the 2nd: Gaunt isn't an example of a mortal taking down Astartes. He is an example of a bottom rung officer of an incomprehensibly vast military that adequately proved himself a thorn in their side. He is an example of the ability of mortals to kill an Astartes empire by a thousand cuts. He is an example of how attrition will favor the mortals.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Gaunt was not simply a bottom rung officer; he was an individual whose talent and ability was recognized by no less a person than the previous Warmaster of his entire Crusade.  Read Chapter 23 of Blood Pact again: you don't have to believe Criid's assertions as to Gaunt being a possible successor to Slaydo, but there's no doubt that he was an absolutely exceptional commander whom the Warmaster entrusted with key objectives.  For every Gaunt, though, there are literally millions of less imaginative, less caring, and less skilled Guard officers.

 

Cheers!

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, fine. Show me a HH novel/nobella/short story/ebook/sourcebook(such as Betrayal and Massacre) where it says the Imperial Navy existed during the heresy.

 

EDIT: One thing to point out about collected visions is if it is the old one, it has since been revised so what you read may or may not be true anymore. But I'm sure one of the other members who have purchased the new one would gladly help if that's the case.

 

EDIT SECUNDUS: In the meantime, from Scars;

 

“Only one type of fleet in the galaxy had such a profile. The Imperial Army possessed larger complements – vast conglomerations of swollen troop-carriers and supply behemoths – but they had nothing to compare with such concentrated killing power. Only a Legiones Astartes battlegroup could muster such monsters of murder.”

 

Excerpt From: Wraight, Chris. “Scars: Collector's Edition.” Black Library, 2013-12. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

[Wade Garrett]

It's not thin air, though. The latest source I can think of is Forgeworld's Heresy, which qualifies that the Expedition Fleets of the Imperium included Mechanicus Arc-ships, purveyor vessels, etc. We're not going to assume that the Legiones Astartes suddenly lose those assets, are we? ;)

 

It happened to nine of them in OTL, so why not? ;)

 

And I think the ability of the Primarchs to subvert Army and Mechanicum elements is being greatly overstated.

 

Horus, Fulgrim, Angron, and Mortarion had to kill what, a quarter? A third? of their own gene sons on Isstvan III because they couldn't get them on board with betraying the Emperor, and that was with active Chaos corruption and prep time.

 

That makes me very doubtful that all 500 worlds of Ultramar and so on will leap joyfully into rebellion against the Emperor just because a Primarch said so.

[Don the Oiler]

Thus, Lotarra, though a mortal, was instrumental in turning Guilliman's attack on Nuceria into a disaster.

 

Of course, that's the way the book was written and we have to believe that. A lesser fleet commander, be it human or Space Marine, would have fared much worse.

In a "who would win" scenario we can only assume each adversary uses his assets as effective as possible, because we have no way of finding out how stupid some elements would act. And a single stupid act can change the entire direction of a war.

A Munitorum pencil pusher might accidentally send an entire fleet to the wrong sector, or a World Eaters army might attack all its allies because they can't tell friend from foe.

We can't possibly know, so this should be kept out of the discussion.

But on the other hand, even the best Imperial Army commander can't just make an entire human battalion deep strike or quickly redeploy it, and a Primarch can't defend a planet with a hundred Marines when he loses space superiority against a fleet with cyclonic torpedoes.

 

EDIT:ed post to make it less biased

[Wade Garrett]

Were Storm Troopers or Elysian Drop Troops a thing during the Great Crusade?

 

Because if so then the IA can "Stehl Rehn!" with the best of them.

 

Anyway, it's true that not all Space Marines are Eidolon, and not all humans are Lotarra and Gaunt. What isn't true is that Astartes and Primarchs will always outgeneral and outadmiral plain old mortals, full stop.

 

Out bench press? Yes indeed, but in the realm of tactics and strategy things are a lot less clear cut.

[Don the Oiler]

True. "Tactical Genius" is a gaming rule, not a definite asset you can include in your planning. And if it was about tabletop rules, we can assume both camps would be balanced if the codices are written well.

A good Imperial Army commander (and we must assume they're all good) knows that the Space Marines could always suddenly attack from an unexpected direction, and has to plan accordingly. And a Legion commander (yes even an Iron Warrior) knows he'd never win a protracted attrition war because enemy reinforcements would just keep pouring in. He has to make sure he never gets in such a situation.

[Perrin]

It's not thin air, though. The latest source I can think of is Forgeworld's Heresy, which qualifies that the Expedition Fleets of the Imperium included Mechanicus Arc-ships, purveyor vessels, etc. We're not going to assume that the Legiones Astartes suddenly lose those assets, are we?

It happened to nine of them in OTL, so why not?

And I think the ability of the Primarchs to subvert Army and Mechanicum elements is being greatly overstated.

Horus, Fulgrim, Angron, and Mortarion had to kill what, a quarter? A third? of their own gene sons on Isstvan III because they couldn't get them on board with betraying the Emperor, and that was with active Chaos corruption and prep time.

That makes me very doubtful that all 500 worlds of Ultramar and so on will leap joyfully into rebellion against the Emperor just because a Primarch said so.

The difference being Horus was the aggressor, he instigated the civil war with no real provocation from the Emperor. In this made up scenario the Emperor would be the aggressor starting a war with no provocation, wiping out the warriors that built the Imperium because he didn't need them anymore.

There may be a few astartes that fall on their swords because it's the Emperor's wish but it would be a hell of a lot less than stayed loyal in the actual HH. The loyalist marines at Isstvan had to choose between two sides, this scenario only has one side for them to choose because the other one wants them destroyed.

Ultramar is controlled and governed by the Ultramarines. All media and propaganda sources will be controlled by them, though I really can't see why they would need to spin "The Emperor has ordered the death of all Primarchs and Astartes because they have outlived their usefulness". It's impossible to say there would be no dissenters, but I can't see there being many.

[Perrin]

True. "Tactical Genius" is a gaming rule, not a definite asset you can include in your planning. And if it was about tabletop rules, we can assume both camps would be balanced if the codices are written well.

A good Imperial Army commander (and we must assume they're all good) knows that the Space Marines could always suddenly attack from an unexpected direction, and has to plan accordingly. And a Legion commander (yes even an Iron Warrior) knows he'd never win a protracted attrition war because enemy reinforcements would just keep pouring in. He has to make sure he never gets in such a situation.

 

Are we talking about a ordinary straight-up skirmish or can it be any type of battle? A fortress designed by IW and IF working together, manned by Space Marines from both Legions would take a hell of a lot of Imperial resources and manpower to take out. Resource problems are less of an issue with marines, apart from ammunition, but with forge capabilities that problem would be lessened.

 

It's a nice thing to imagine for fans of either Legion, the ultimate fortress standing up to hundreds/thousands/millions of ordinary Guard. They could always destroy the planet from orbit though, so that puts a hole in that vision.

 

Fighting a guerrilla battle on a death world against astartes would be pretty grim (with marines as the guerrilla force). Eventually the IA would run out of death world Regiments and morale would drop too low for the IA forces to continue effectively.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Except the Imperial Navy didn't exist in the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. It was all the Imperial Army. There was an Imperial Fleet, but it was a division of the Imperial Army, much like how the U.S. National Guard are a division of the U.S. Army.

 

For reference:

 

Imperial Army

 

Imperial Guard

 

Imperial Navy

With respect, two of those links make statements that aren't even cited. One of them properly cites a source - Codex: Imperial Guard, 5th Edition - but it it only tenuously supports the idea of a single military arm:

The Imperial Army, as it was, ceased to exist. The link between fleet and army was severed - never again would ground commanders be given direct control over interstellar ships.

That single statement is contradicted by numerous other sources, though. Consider that, in every single Horus Heresy novel, Army officers are qualified specifically as such, and listed separately from Expedition Fleet officers.

 

I think what's happening here is that you're seeing an Army officer appointed as Lord Commander of an entire Expeditionary Fleet and assuming they are all one branch of service. That's not the case, though. Consider the U.S. forces (or, heck, those of the British Empire, and later the Commonwealth, as well) in pretty much every war of the 20th and 21st centuries: a single officer is given command over all forces engaged in a campaign - to include those of other branches. These forces are the Expedition Fleets, which included ground troops, naval vessels, fighter and bomber squadrons, and - if they were lucky - Titans. There was always a division between those assets, though, just as there was a division between Air Force, Army, Marine Corps, and Navy assets in Iraq - despite all of them answering to a single General of the U.S. Army. It's why Imperial naval personnel are consistently shown as having different rank structures, different chains of command, etc., in the novels.

 

The reason why confusion can arise is because those commanding officers of the Imperium were always members of the Imperial Army. That's simply an echo of our own history, though: because the Army (of practically any modern nation as well as the fictional Imperium) possess the preponderance of assets and maneuver forces, its commander generally also serves as the overall commander. The navy's lack of mention is simply a by-product of it being a supporting arm to the ground forces. Beyond novels, though, we know from books such as Forgeworld's Heresy that there were Admirals as well as Generals. That distinction is meaningless unless there is a navy.

 

The big change after the Heresy was that the overwhelming majority of the Imperium's military efforts were no longer under the command of a single individual. Unless your name is preceded by titles like "Solar" or "Warmaster", the Navy is simply giving you a lift. You can request and coordinate orbital bombardment, but you can't tell them how and when to fight. Unless you have one of those two titles, you can be a General Patton... but you can't be a General Eisenhower.

 

Closing note: I don't have the Collected Visions in front of me. Once I get a chance to look at them again, the first thing I will do is search through them for anything that states Imperial Army = ground forces and naval assets under one service branch.

 

I'd say Gaunt's ambush and annihilation of a World Eaters force and the derailing of an Iron Warriors led siege suggest he can play very well with the boys in power armor.

Let's be fair here: you're comparing an effort supported by two Iron Warriors to an invasion spearheaded by a Company or a Chapter of the Legiones Astartes. That is to say, it's not a fair comparison at all.

 

Also, I would very much like a source on this whole "The Legio Astartes can just pull armor, bolt rounds, promethium, and everything else they need out of thin air."

It's not thin air, though. The latest source I can think of is Forgeworld's Heresy, which qualifies that the Expedition Fleets of the Imperium included Mechanicus Arc-ships, purveyor vessels, etc. We're not going to assume that the Legiones Astartes suddenly lose those assets, are we? ;)

 

Raiding will only get you so far. Look at the state Tenth Company of the VIII or the Marines Malevolent are in.

Tenth Company and the Marines Malevolent were renegades operating in a vacuum, though. We can't compare their challenges or their capabilities to those of hundreds of Legiones Astartes fleets operating in concert.

 

Edit the 2nd: Gaunt isn't an example of a mortal taking down Astartes. He is an example of a bottom rung officer of an incomprehensibly vast military that adequately proved himself a thorn in their side. He is an example of the ability of mortals to kill an Astartes empire by a thousand cuts. He is an example of how attrition will favor the mortals.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Gaunt was not simply a bottom rung officer; he was an individual whose talent and ability was recognized by no less a person than the previous Warmaster of his entire Crusade. Read Chapter 23 of Blood Pact again: you don't have to believe Criid's assertions as to Gaunt being a possible successor to Slaydo, but there's no doubt that he was an absolutely exceptional commander whom the Warmaster entrusted with key objectives. For every Gaunt, though, there are literally millions of less imaginative, less caring, and less skilled Guard officers.

 

Cheers!

Navy: It is nice reasoning and all, but it doesn't change fact, and the fact still stands that the Navy came into existence under Guilliman's reforms of the Army.

 

Gaunt: You are correct. But that doesn't raise him above the bottom rungs. If he had become a Warmaster, he would have been closer to the middle. But he is a commander of a single regiment of Guardsmen in a single Crusade. As far as the Imperial Guard is concerned, bottom rung.

[Don the Oiler]

The Navy as an independent force may have originated from Guilliman's reforms, but had to already exist in one form or another during the Crusade. Lotara was a captain, which, as commander of the WE flagship really only makes sense as a Navy rank. If it was an army rank, she would equal a Navy lieutenant, and i really don't see that. Not when all that's required is to promote her two ranks so she was colonel.

The Imperial Army is probably the overarching term, with a Navy (or whatever it's called, but i'm sure it's there) commanding and manning the spaceships as some kind of sub-branch, and the ground-forces being called Army again. Then, post-heresy, it gets split up into Guard and Navy.

The problem is that "Army" is usually associated with ground forces, and should be a sub-branch itself.

 

EDIT: Also, Kaminska of the Wrathful was a rear admiral, which is *definately* a Navy rank. Maybe it was called Imperial Spaceforce or something.