Kais Klip Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 Another aspect that hasn't been brought up. What would stop the legions from pumping out as many new marines as they could to fight this war? Sure there would probably be a higher aspirant attrition rate but let's say that you were able to pump out marines five times faster even though you would have a higher mortality rate during the transformation process I'd say it would be worth it. Nothing would stop them, just like nothing would stop mankind from pumping out more guardsmen, with the latter being much more efficient to my mind. A pair of protein packs, 12 years, some flak and a lasgun and bam, you have another rifle manning the trench. On another note the Astartes wouldn't increase their aspirant rate any more than the rate already undertaken by the legions with the highest attrition rates, so we have to assume there is a reason there aren't more Astartes than humans in the galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3559799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Angel Exterminatus (among other sources) mentions children being screened for genetic compatibility with the gene seed. Presumably, simply shoving the implants into an incompatible donor gets you nothing except a dead kid and some wasted Astartes organs, it isn't like building, say, Land Raiders, where "I want five times as many built in half the time!" is even remotely possible. My theory is the large Legions (Ultramarines, Word Bearers, World Eaters) gene seed required a much lower level of compatibility than that of the Space Wolves or Emperor's Children, but that's only my theory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3559804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwatch/Grey knight Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 He's an ironsmith Not science- Since reading angel exterminatas I would say perturabo is the closest scientist of them all Other then big E Wade that's a really interesting theory I may agree with you Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3559813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I'd say Perturabo is an architect/mathmatician/engineer. Ferrus Manus is something of an engineer/mechanic/technician. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3559834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Scrymgeour Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Well, IMHO The emperor planned the whole thing. He knew that an eternal war was the ultimate sacrifice to the chaos gods. He created the Primarchs and the Astartes knowing that they would never, in fact could never stop fighting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3559846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Although if you did need to churn out a bunch of Astartes...cloning a bunch of kids using a highly compatible original as your template could net you a larger recruiting pool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3559850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Although if you did need to churn out a bunch of Astartes...cloning a bunch of kids using a highly compatible original as your template could net you a larger recruiting pool.Yeah, just look at what the Raven Guard did in the IA articles unfortunately that has never been attempted in the fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3559886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Or wouldn't it be feasible to see a legions astartes version of the tyrants legion, countering imperial propaganda on the worlds where the legions have holdings and influence could vastly increase the number of "rifles in the trenches" on the astartes side of things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3559981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carach Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 And Kol, unless you can find me a scene of Konrad playing Super Mario with those claw gauntlets, they aren't the Power Glove. That's a bit unfair, noone can play Super Mario with a Power Glove!Are you saying "The Wizard" lied to me? Edit: As for the Iron Hands Primarch...Ferrus Manus divides his time between punching chunks of metal until they become swords, mauls, and guns and smashing his enemies with a great big hammer. Which discipline of science handles that? Because I'd be doing science right now if my guidance counselor had only told me which branch covers forging swords and smashing skulls with a warhammer. Going by "Fulgrim" and "Feat of Iron" old Metal Hands has far more in common with Conan than Albert Einstein or Archimedes. he hasnt been covered much outside of supporting character in wars, so we dont actually know what he's up to much of the time. Despite that; my point remains. You only attack one part of it; the primarch. Ignoring the fact that there have been quite a few iron hands characters now that are techy beyond the norm. and its established lore that they are one of the closest to the mechanicum. Not to mention the fact that, again, in established lore, he basically taught his homeworld technology. What a coincidence. as already mentioned too and reinforced with the quote from Gulliman in know no fear; some primarchs simply adopted their role as war maker, when they could be so much more. In my original post i said there are roles for some legions that we will never know of due to circumstance. I'd say Perturabo is an architect/mathmatician/engineer. Ferrus Manus is something of an engineer/mechanic/technician. this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 This conversation is flawed in it's assumptions. The current lore uses the Dune prescience trap. The Emperor is prescient and sifts the thousand possible strands of fate. Just like Paul Muhab'dib, he knows all outcomes and does not alter the time line drastically in fear of losing the one "sliver" of hope he sees. Knowing what he knew would happen (the Heresy), he did not care for the furuture of space marines. He would either succeed in his gambit or fail and lose all. The outcome of the heresy would still be vaguely the same, with the space marine legions crippling each other. Had he acheived godhood however, the primarchs would become irrelevent. They would be powerless to oppose him at that point. But if we ignore all this, we can say this: the Emperor tends to discard things when they are no long useful. The Thunder warriors were discarded. If they were truly flawed and an unforseen side effect, he would not have them written down as conveniently dying in the last battle for Terra. At the time, he needed a ruthless army. After Terra, he would need warriors that could work alongside human troops and interact with the lost strands of humanity. Thunder Warriors were not designed for that. If the Emperor did not know of the impending Heresy, why would he not trush his sons with his plans, and strip them of their defense against daemons, and purposefully nudge Lorgar in the right direction after decades of crusade? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 he hasnt been covered much outside of supporting character in wars, so we dont actually know what he's up to much of the time. Despite that; my point remains. You only attack one part of it; the primarch. Ignoring the fact that there have been quite a few iron hands characters now that are techy beyond the norm. When I pointed out that the Iron Hand's homeworld (desert hellhole of fighting barbarian tribes) was hardly conductive to breeding a Legion of scientists, you said the homeworld was irrelevant, it's the Primarch that matters. Now you say it doesn't matter that Ferrus was a Blacksmith/Warlord (or Warlord/Blacksmith) not a scientist, because the Iron Hands are close to the Mechanicum and some of them do science. A. Being bootlicks to an institution (particularly an innovation hating reactionary one like the Ad Mech) doesn't make you sciencey. B.ALL the Legions had some eggheads in their ranks. The Emperor's Children ( Fabius) and the Raven Guard (Raptors project) for starters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 This conversation is flawed in it's assumptions. The current lore uses the Dune prescience trap. The Emperor is prescient and sifts the thousand possible strands of fate. Just like Paul Muhab'dib, he knows all outcomes and does not alter the time line drastically in fear of losing the one "sliver" of hope he sees. Knowing what he knew would happen (the Heresy), he did not care for the furuture of space marines. He would either succeed in his gambit or fail and lose all. The outcome of the heresy would still be vaguely the same, with the space marine legions crippling each other. Had he acheived godhood however, the primarchs would become irrelevent. They would be powerless to oppose him at that point. But if we ignore all this, we can say this: the Emperor tends to discard things when they are no long useful. The Thunder warriors were discarded. If they were truly flawed and an unforseen side effect, he would not have them written down as conveniently dying in the last battle for Terra. At the time, he needed a ruthless army. After Terra, he would need warriors that could work alongside human troops and interact with the lost strands of humanity. Thunder Warriors were not designed for that. If the Emperor did not know of the impending Heresy, why would he not trush his sons with his plans, and strip them of their defense against daemons, and purposefully nudge Lorgar in the right direction after decades of crusade? Actually The Outcast Dead specifically says he did not see the Heresy coming. As for Nikea, that was in an effort to keep the Thousand Sons from going too far, similar to how Prohibition was targeted against drunks but affected everyone who drank alcohol. Worked out just as well. As for Lorgar, yes, nudging him into burning planets to the ground and leaving only ashes was definitely in the right direction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 The Outcast Dead specificly confirms that he already knew. It is not news, and he alludes to already knowing what the message is when talking to the psyker. Lorgar put it well: the Emperor knew from the start that Lorgar worshiped him, and made the compliant planets in that same mage of worship. He had never mentioned it or been botheted by it up till that time. The Emperor knows what he created in each primarch, and struck a cord in his reprimand of the wordbearers. You also find out about the stranded human colonies to worship him in ancient religions. To create a fate of cosmic proportion, nothing like denying the people the right to practice faith ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Heres one, the iron warriors were getting particularly peeved that they were being used as a garrison. Now the far numerically superior word bearers all stuck around to do this religious conversion nonsense, why didn't lorgar just leave a few legionnaires behind ala IW and carry on in that fashion? That does not make sense, chewbacca is a wookie from kashykk, but lives on endor, that does not make sense! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 The Outcast Dead specificly confirms that he already knew. It is not news, and he alludes to already knowing what the message is when talking to the psyker. Lorgar put it well: the Emperor knew from the start that Lorgar worshiped him, and made the compliant planets in that same mage of worship. He had never mentioned it or been botheted by it up till that time. The Emperor knows what he created in each primarch, and struck a cord in his reprimand of the wordbearers. You also find out about the stranded human colonies to worship him in ancient religions. To create a fate of cosmic proportion, nothing like denying the people the right to practice faith No, The Outcast Dead shows that He found out the future by watching the vision that was hidden within the Astropath Kai when Kai finally saw the vision after facing his fears. That takes place on pages 440-447. On page 352, the Emperor tells Kai that the universe keeps some secrets hidden until their appointed hour, even from Him. And on page 354, He says that He did not yet know the outcome of the Heresy. And on page 137, the Emperor tells Kai that He is aware of one whose thread is intertwined with His own, but he is unaware of who that person is. As for telling people no, people have a habit of doing what they are told not to do. Prohibition. Drunk driving. Weed. Crack. The list goes on. And so far, we have only seen one planet in the Heresy series that was worshiping the Emperor and Lorgar turned it to ashes immediately following Monarchia. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Going by "The Last Church" the Emperor was trying to stomp religion out because he hated it, not as some bass-ackwards "if you nuke their cities from orbit when they worship you, then they'll only worship you more" plan. And according to several other precognitives, the worst possible outcome of the Heresy is the one that happened, dooming mankind to ten thousand years of decay and stagnation followed by an apocalyptic demise. If the Emperor triggered that deliberately he's either misanthropic to a degree that makes Night Haunter look cuddly or dumb as a stump. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Going by "The Last Church" the Emperor was trying to stomp religion out because he hated it, not as some bass-ackwards "if you nuke their cities from orbit when they worship you, then they'll only worship you more" plan. And according to several other precognitives, the worst possible outcome of the Heresy is the one that happened, dooming mankind to ten thousand years of decay and stagnation followed by an apocalyptic demise. If the Emperor triggered that deliberately he's either misanthropic to a degree that makes Night Haunter look cuddly or dumb as a stump. Or, he's Cthulhu! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Or for the ultimate in cheese, he saw beyond the apocalypse to some kind of acension whereby he absorbs the essences of the primarchs and roundhouses abbadon back to 30k Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Or for the ultimate in cheese, he saw beyond the apocalypse to some kind of acension whereby he absorbs the essences of the primarchs and roundhouses abbadon back to 30kAlthough funnily enough that would end up proving Horus right that the Emperor would be willing to sacrifice all of Humanity if it meant becoming a god. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Absorbing the Primarchs would be tricky, considering that at least six of them have already been absorbed by Chaos and Emps personally flayed one of them into deader than dead not coming back ever he gone oblivion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Thats still leaving 11 for the picking Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I think an interesting nugget popped up as I was reading Angel Exterminatus in the discussion between Cassander and Fabius: Pg 424 Paraphrased for sanity "I don't want to die" said Fabius, "the emperors soldiers who came before us, the TWs, their gene code carried the seeds of their own destruction. And the gene boosted savages before them? They were fortunate to live before their hyper metabolism consumed them." Fabius: "the primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die. I would not have it so." Cassander, " You gorillas want to live forever?!!!! Get some Marin-" Ahem not that last part :D but if the Emps had possibly deluded the primarchs into thinking the astartes live functionally forever.....he might thunder warrior them and have an agenda" My speculation is that he ultimately wanted the humans to remain in control and not need to rely on super humans. Savage weapons and all that...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I think an interesting nugget popped up as I was reading Angel Exterminatus in the discussion between Cassander and Fabius: Pg 424 Paraphrased for sanity "I don't want to die" said Fabius, "the emperors soldiers who came before us, the TWs, their gene code carried the seeds of their own destruction. And the gene boosted savages before them? They were fortunate to live before their hyper metabolism consumed them." Fabius: "the primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die. I would not have it so." Cassander, " You gorillas want to live forever?!!!! Get some Marin-" Ahem not that last part but if the Emps had possibly deluded the primarchs into thinking the astartes live functionally forever.....he might thunder warrior them and have an agenda" My speculation is that he ultimately wanted the humans to remain in control and not need to rely on super humans. Savage weapons and all that...... Maybe. Or this is just similar to the part in Horus Rising where Loken thought that it was possible that they might functionally live forever, but wasn't sure because no one had ever lived that long. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I think it is also oddly mentioned that the blood angels are the longest lived of the astartes. Which makes no sense as they are all functionally immortal right? Dante is 1100 plus years old but we have bjorn who's fleshy parts haven't degraded within his dreadnought frame (though is is put in stasis iirrc) Also it's odd that it's noticed that blood angels live longer because their gene seed undoes them and makes them go nuts and die faster due to combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 The Blood Angels having longer longevity is a post-30k realization. At the time of the Heresy, the oldest Marines were less than three hundred years old. They had no idea at that time how long they could go. They were like teenagers thinking they would live forever. By 40k terms, the Legionaries were still young. They didn't yet know that the Blood Angels could live past a millennium, and that others could not, because they hadn't even existed half that time yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/8/#findComment-3560577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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