depthcharge12 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 The Blood Angels having longer longevity is a post-30k realization. At the time of the Heresy, the oldest Marines were less than three hundred years old. They had no idea at that time how long they could go. They were like teenagers thinking they would live forever. By 40k terms, the Legionaries were still young. They didn't yet know that the Blood Angels could live past a millennium, and that others could not, because they hadn't even existed half that time yet. Yes and I am agreeing to the first part of that, but the only reason Dante has lived that long is he hasn't been killed in combat yet. Ulrik the slayer is 600 something years old and I think one of the previous black Templar Marshals lived to be 1300 something years old and launched 2 large scale crusades. Lysander is technically over 1000 years old, but he was also in a warp eddy. He can't remember a time when Dante wasn't the chapter master of the blood angels. Not to mention the fact that Night lords can be upwards of 10,000 years old as they more than likely avoid the warp unless they are traveling in it, which adds or subtracts undefined amounts of time. It doesn't make sense to say the blood angels are the longest lived when only Dante AFAWK is only blood angel to live over a couple centuries. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Yep. Although having the literal blood of a Primarch has its perks. And disadvantages. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I think that endgame would see the wolves eaters night lords death guard in the war theater clearing the eye of terror. The smurfs both angels thousand sons and fists taking administrative duties The ravens the sallies the sons and the emps kids on guard duty within the imperium The iron warriors iron hands alphas scars on patrol of the imperium looking for external threats And the word bearers creating propaganda for the imperium Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwatch/Grey knight Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Don't forget that salamander the 3rd company found he wasn't effected by the warp yet he was a surviver of the drop site massacre Oh and Logan grimnar And what about the famous chief librarians Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Going by "The Last Church" the Emperor was trying to stomp religion out because he hated it, not as some bass-ackwards "if you nuke their cities from orbit when they worship you, then they'll only worship you more" plan. And according to several other precognitives, the worst possible outcome of the Heresy is the one that happened, dooming mankind to ten thousand years of decay and stagnation followed by an apocalyptic demise. If the Emperor triggered that deliberately he's either misanthropic to a degree that makes Night Haunter look cuddly or dumb as a stump. He not did want it to happen that way. He would have survived and be the only hope for humanity avoid destruction, as he transcended to fight chaos in the immaterium. What unmade him was that he hid the true nature of chaos from his sons. Which doesn't make sense if your only purpose to to bring secular truth to the galaxy.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 The Outcast Dead specificly confirms that he already knew. It is not news, and he alludes to already knowing what the message is when talking to the psyker. Lorgar put it well: the Emperor knew from the start that Lorgar worshiped him, and made the compliant planets in that same mage of worship. He had never mentioned it or been botheted by it up till that time. The Emperor knows what he created in each primarch, and struck a cord in his reprimand of the wordbearers. You also find out about the stranded human colonies to worship him in ancient religions. To create a fate of cosmic proportion, nothing like denying the people the right to practice faith No, The Outcast Dead shows that He found out the future by watching the vision that was hidden within the Astropath Kai when Kai finally saw the vision after facing his fears. That takes place on pages 440-447. On page 352, the Emperor tells Kai that the universe keeps some secrets hidden until their appointed hour, even from Him. And on page 354, He says that He did not yet know the outcome of the Heresy. And on page 137, the Emperor tells Kai that He is aware of one whose thread is intertwined with His own, but he is unaware of who that person is. As for telling people no, people have a habit of doing what they are told not to do. Prohibition. Drunk driving. Weed. Crack. The list goes on. And so far, we have only seen one planet in the Heresy series that was worshiping the Emperor and Lorgar turned it to ashes immediately following Monarchia. I will have to mske another pass at that section of the book, I might have misread it. The very first planet in the first book is led by a false Emperor claiming to be Terra. The Omnissiah on Mars. He seems to appear in nearly all the history books ever written on Terra. If he wanted only secular truth, he would not hide the true nature of the warp and it's entities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 That's the thing. It's not like secularity is an ideal that the Emperor is pushing. He knows that there are thirsting gods that pose an imminent danger to Mankind. He's using the Imperial Truth as a cover, to limit as much as possible the influence Chaos can have on human beings. Telling people that there were four powers that innately drew on the negative aspects of fundamental facets of existence and that the soul of every human being was doomed to annihilation and/or eternal torture would not help his cause one bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 To hide it from the general populace can work for some time. He could not possibly think that he could keep the lid on it. As someone who was able to deceive the gods of chaos, he should have known better. Especially with his sons. Again, this suports that he had ulterior motives, and that his sons were expandable. We just never got to know what they were. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I honestly don't know that it supports the idea that he had ulterior motives. Obviously I don't think he could have prevented Chaos from having some influence on the people he conquered some of the time, but I certainly don't see how he "could not possibly think" that his plan would work. It seemed to be working rather well for about two centuries. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 The Emperor as always looked to the long view. It's not possible that he and nothing else in mind. It certainly worked well for two centuries, on the surface.The very denial of the existance of chaos is what allowed it to work it's magic towards and corrupt the Primarchs. Would Fulgrim have taken the Laer sword had he known? Would Lorgar have turned? Would Horus have fallen to the deceit? Magnus knew, and it is that knowledge that prevented him from falling for as long as he did. He ended up playing is part, but minimized the damage done to the space wolves as much as he could. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Magnus believed the Warp was benign and that the parts of it that were malign could be tamed. He let his arrogance blind him to the truth in front of him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 The Blood Angels having longer longevity is a post-30k realization. At the time of the Heresy, the oldest Marines were less than three hundred years old. They had no idea at that time how long they could go. They were like teenagers thinking they would live forever. By 40k terms, the Legionaries were still young. They didn't yet know that the Blood Angels could live past a millennium, and that others could not, because they hadn't even existed half that time yet. This touches on something that has been bugging me. Yes, the Crusade is roughly 300 years old, give or take, but the FW Heresy books have shown us that the Unification Wars were a long-fought deal as well. Not only crushing the tyrants and kings of Old Earth, but also Luna, the Saturnyne fleets, and various xenos holdings within the boundaries of Sol as well. I've heard estimates of up to an additional 200+ years to solidify the Terran holdings, and the FW books have shown that the old Legions took a far larger part in taking Terra than previously thought, and that momentum for the Emperor's wars was much slower than originally thought as well. The oldest Legionaries (should they have lived that long) could be closer to 500+ years. Possibly longer. It's all guesswork, sadly. But the possibility is there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3560972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 he hasnt been covered much outside of supporting character in wars, so we dont actually know what he's up to much of the time. Despite that; my point remains. You only attack one part of it; the primarch. Ignoring the fact that there have been quite a few iron hands characters now that are techy beyond the norm. When I pointed out that the Iron Hand's homeworld (desert hellhole of fighting barbarian tribes) was hardly conductive to breeding a Legion of scientists, you said the homeworld was irrelevant, it's the Primarch that matters. Now you say it doesn't matter that Ferrus was a Blacksmith/Warlord (or Warlord/Blacksmith) not a scientist, because the Iron Hands are close to the Mechanicum and some of them do science. A. Being bootlicks to an institution (particularly an innovation hating reactionary one like the Ad Mech) doesn't make you sciencey. B.ALL the Legions had some eggheads in their ranks. The Emperor's Children ( Fabius) and the Raven Guard (Raptors project) for starters. I would ask that you get your hands on a copy of Forge World's Massacre. Ferrus Manus himself created many vehicles and equipment that would later be used by the legions. He even teamed up with Roboute to make the Sicarian battle tank. Ferrus Manus divides his time between punching chunks of metal until they become swords, mauls, and guns and smashing his enemies with a great big hammer. Which discipline of science handles that? Physics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 To hide it from the general populace can work for some time. He could not possibly think that he could keep the lid on it. As someone who was able to deceive the gods of chaos, he should have known better. Especially with his sons. Again, this suports that he had ulterior motives, and that his sons were expandable. We just never got to know what they were. It doesn't point to ulterior motives, be they real or not. The Emperor simply believed that he could build the Imperium upon the lie that the sentient powers of chaos do not exist. The Khan and Him argued on this point so much that they fell out; the former did not believe an empire can be built on a deception as great as that, the latter simply did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 The Blood Angels having longer longevity is a post-30k realization. At the time of the Heresy, the oldest Marines were less than three hundred years old. They had no idea at that time how long they could go. They were like teenagers thinking they would live forever. By 40k terms, the Legionaries were still young. They didn't yet know that the Blood Angels could live past a millennium, and that others could not, because they hadn't even existed half that time yet. This touches on something that has been bugging me. Yes, the Crusade is roughly 300 years old, give or take, but the FW Heresy books have shown us that the Unification Wars were a long-fought deal as well. Not only crushing the tyrants and kings of Old Earth, but also Luna, the Saturnyne fleets, and various xenos holdings within the boundaries of Sol as well. I've heard estimates of up to an additional 200+ years to solidify the Terran holdings, and the FW books have shown that the old Legions took a far larger part in taking Terra than previously thought, and that momentum for the Emperor's wars was much slower than originally thought as well. The oldest Legionaries (should they have lived that long) could be closer to 500+ years. Possibly longer. It's all guesswork, sadly. But the possibility is there. I always thought the Unification Wars were shorter, less than a century. I have heard theories of it being longer, but I have always dismissed them. They almost always assumed that it happens as soon as the Age of Strife begins, but forget how long ago it had. That is why I said less than three centuries, allowing for the two hundred years plus Legionaries who were present during the Unification Wars. This isn't me debating the point, I am just explaining how I guessed that age bracket. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I think it was the Unification War that involved the Thunder Warriors took less than a century so we by habit think of the Unification of Terra as the totality of the Wars and "100+200=300". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share Posted January 5, 2014 Yeah, Prospero Burns touches on this, the Unification War was officially finished after a century, but in reality it went on and on and on for another number of years (I doubt its another 200 though). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I think it was the Unification War that involved the Thunder Warriors took less than a century so we by habit think of the Unification of Terra as the totality of the Wars and "100+200=300". just throwing out a comparison and question based on this being a timeframe, both ahriman and iacton qurze were around pre or very early crusade, iacton appears considerably more haggard. How so? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 It's possible though. It's also possible that there is some overlap. The Night Lords "famous battle" that involved them dumping an entire city into a crevasse? There only five hundred involved because the rest of the Legion was off partying somewhere. It's possible the Unification Wars went on for a bit even after the Great Crusade began. The Imperium didn't seem beyond the "It looks like too much trouble now so we'll come back to it later" mentality and we know of at least two different rebellions where elements long thought dead resurfaced long enough to cause trouble. So it could be possible that the Unification Wars did go on for two centuries, but the beginning of the Unification Wars to the Heresy still only be ~300 years. helterskelter, on 05 Jan 2014 - 15:30, said: Kol_Saresk, on 05 Jan 2014 - 14:58, said: I think it was the Unification War that involved the Thunder Warriors took less than a century so we by habit think of the Unification of Terra as the totality of the Wars and "100+200=300". just throwing out a comparison and question based on this being a timeframe, both ahriman and iacton qurze were around pre or very early crusade, iacton appears considerably more haggard. How so? Don't know. Why does Dante at 1,100 years old depicted as rather young looking but Logan Grimnar at 700 years looks so much older? Honestly, I don't know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I think they touch upon it with Garro, though I can't recall the details of it. I believe things like Warp travel and gene-seed origins was part of the conversation. Basically alluding to the time travel aspects of Warp travel while also revealing how little they know about the differences in their genetic sources at this time. It would be interesting if it meant that the XVI had shorter life spans than other Legions, though such details will never be known. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Could just be that different folks age differently. Some people look 60 when they're 40 and others look 40 when they're 60. Then you add the geneseed and the warp and you get all kinds of weirdness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Garro also talks about spending considerable lengths of time "in the little-death of coldsleep on voyages below the speed of light". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I think FW is (personal opinion here) stretching the Unification out as far as they can, intentionally, to show the machine that is the newborn Imperium gaining momentum. Where we all used to look at Unification as Terra alone, FW has made the wars against the rest of the Sol system a part of that. Plus, many of the old regimes of Terra seem much larger and more powerful than previously thought, which slowed things down a bit. Scracthing up a massive warfleet from Saturn, turning the wheels of the Mechanicum to begin mass production for...everything, bringing twenty legions of superhumans to at least combat strength, building the beginning of the Imperial Army, curing the entire Terran gene-pool of 30,000 years of rad and chem mutation, all while fighting a bunch of xenos holdings, humans that refuse Unification, (Imagine scouring the bloody asteroid belt for hidden empires! Oy!) and setbacks from various sources (primarchs disappearing, III Legion gene-seed corruption, etc). This stuff takes time. A lot of time. Again, all personal opinion. But I'm still holding that the Sol Unification Wars add at least an additional 300 years to all this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Ooh! Something else to bring up. John Grammaticus met the Emperor during the Unification Wars. He became a Perpetual and a member of the Cabal after he died during those wars. And yet by the time we reach Legion, he's 1,000 years old(page 65). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Some of that is after the Great Crusade has begun, though. Some Legions were not formed until others had left Sol. The Imperial Army was created when the Legions had begun to spread out too much to cover everything. At least one Unification event I can recall, the War Hounds at Cerberus, happened after some Legions had already left Sol. I think Kol has the right of it, and ForgeWorld's expansions are by way of overlap. The Great Crusade began before the full unification of Terra and the Sol System was complete. Edit: Well, :cuss John Grammaticus then! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285089-post-crusade-endgame-the-legions/page/9/#findComment-3561259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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