How was Nostramo allowed to degenerate so?

[Kol Saresk]

Well if we are considering Primarhs who did not leave their homeworlds better than they found it, Magnus, Russ, Angron and Mortarion didn't do anything to improve their homeworlds, although Mortarion did at least kill the necromancers. Olympia and Caliban both went into rebellion.

[Hyaenidae]

Ah. So, if America ever goes into a second revolution, it's the British's fault?

[Kol Saresk]

Idk. I ain't the one who set the stipulation, I'm just saying "These are the Primarchs who would fall under it."

[Hyaenidae]

My point is:

 

Prospero was a hellhole. Magnus cast it into a city of light and knowledge.

 

Fenris was... Fenris. Russ turned it into a place of hope, in it's own way.

 

Caliban was a nightmare infested Deathworld. The Lion purged it of beasts, and the people slept in peace.

 

Olympia was a tyrant run warzone. Perturabo united the cities, and deposed his own foster father.

 

Neither the Lion or Perturabo had any fault in the rebellions of their worlds. Their faults lay with how they dealt with it.

 

Prospero died because of deception. Whether Magnus fought or not, the world was going to die.

 

Each made a positive imprint on their worlds. The stipulation is broken and false. Next case.

[Kol Saresk]

And Curze didn't tell Nostramo to slide into a hellhole. Its something the population did. After Curze made it into a prosperous, ordered society with virtually no crime rate. Paradise it was not, but it was a sight better than some of the third world countries of today.

 

I'm just saying that if we blame Curze for how each world eventually turned out, then we have to blame those Primarchs as well.

 

Like I said, I didn't make the stipulation. I'm just saying that if we play by it, that's what we have to do. Look at each homeworld an its ultimate outcome.

[Wade Garrett]

Fenris Pre Primarch:

A frozen hellhole of warring tribes and giant monsters

 

Post Primarch:

No discernible difference

 

See also Baal (Radioactive Hellhole) and Medusa (Tectonically Unstable Hellhole)

[Kol Saresk]

Fenris Pre Primarch:

A frozen hellhole of warring tribes and giant monsters

 

Post Primarch:

No discernible difference

 

See also Baal (Radioactive Hellhole) and Medusa (Tectonically Unstable Hellhole)

Well, in the case of Baal and Medusa, the clans/tribes were some united. Although in the case of Medusa, the Clans were united in killing each other to gain the favor of their Primarch........... I wonder if that would be classed "same" or "worse".

[Frosco Toppings]

Fenris Pre Primarch:

A frozen hellhole of warring tribes and giant monsters

 

Post Primarch:

No discernible difference

 

See also Baal (Radioactive Hellhole) and Medusa (Tectonically Unstable Hellhole)

Good recruiting grounds though. Is world-building or governance really part of a Primarch's remit? Those that improved their homewords did so off their own backs before the big cheese found them, not a his behest. Their job is simply to lead their warriors and enforce compliance.

[Wade Garrett]

Good recruiting grounds though. Is world-building or governance really part of a Primarch's remit? Those that improved their homewords did so off their own backs before the big cheese found them, not a his behest. Their job is simply to lead their warriors and enforce compliance.

 

That depends entirely on which Primarch you ask. Guilliman, Vulkan, Magnus, Lorgar, and even Curze would disagree with you that their intended role is that narrow.

 

Russ, Ferrus, The Khan, and Angron would think you hit the nail on the head.

 

And the Emperor would glow bright gold, make an ambiguously cryptic remark, and stride off imperiously, leaving a heated argument about what exactly he meant by what he said in his wake.

[Memento Of Prospero]

"So which is it Father? Should we build an empire worthy of your name or conquer the galaxy through building rutless breeding ground?"

 

++ Indeed my sons! ++

[godking]

Perturabo and the Lion left their world better then when they left it.

 

Angron never cared  and was never in a position to change his world.

 

Russ deliberately chose not to change his world.

 

Magnus and Mortarion both left their world in a better position.

 

 

Its only Curze who tried and failed while having all the advantages of a Primarch

[Memento Of Prospero]

You will have to be more specific as to way he failed. The Lion failed, and so did Perturabo. There home worlds rebelled, just as Curze's did.

[Kol Saresk]

Mortarion's homeworld was still a plague-ridden planet. All he did was kill the zombies.

 

Magnus got his world burned to a crisp.

 

Leaving your planet to be a deathworld where entire tribes of women and children will be killed just because a shooting star went over their heads sounds like a real winner. Good job Russ. ;)

 

While Curze was remembered, Nostramo was considered to be a planet with no crime and was described as a "rich and prosperous world that traded with its neighboring planets". It was only after the Administratum got hold that reverted back to before Curze's....... "administration".

[Wade Garrett]

I'd say "Not having necromancers march armies of the dead down to massacre villages for sport" counts as Mort improving Barbarus.

[helterskelter]

I remember the IA from white dwarf many moons ago, mortarion did the best he could with the materials available, I really admired his character and he is hard as nails. Just don't really like the siding with horus/tolerance of typhon, but thats the story hey-ho.

[Kol Saresk]

While he was on Barbarus, he built respirators so he could lead his soldiers into battle. But if the Death Guard are anything to go by, respirators seem like "something for the weak." I mean, they have recruits run through a briarpatch of poisoned thorns.

[Conn Eremon]

While he was on Barbarus, he built respirators so he could lead his soldiers into battle. But if the Death Guard are anything to go by, respirators seem like "something for the weak." I mean, they have recruits run through a briarpatch of poisoned thorns.

Because, sometimes the enemy lies on the other side. Sometimes what is an obstacle to us is not one for a tyrant who would kill and dominate us.

 

The Death Guard Legion are the extension of those gas mask wearing soldiers. They weren't crutches, but necessary tools to overcome an obstacle and bring down the enemy. The Legion continues this. But their obstacles are greater, the enemies greater still. Only the most determined, only those that can endure the worst, should be allowed into the Legion. Anything less is a weakness they can ill afford. The mountains are higher, the poisons more lethal, the tyrants grander. The obstacles set before them in recruitment programs are a mere taste of those they would face when ascended.

[Kol Saresk]

So we agree, Mortarion wanted Barbarus to be a harsh environment because he belieed it would produce better soldiers.

 

EDIT: Remember, the original claim was that Curze was a failure as a Primarch because he "did not leave his homeworld better than he found it."

[Conn Eremon]

I agree with Wade. Not having Necromancer Overlords preying on the human populations to make fresh corpse-recruits for their hellish armies is definitely better than having them, Mortarion's later use of Barbarus' more natural dangers for proving the mettle of potential recruits notwithstanding.

[Kol Saresk]

Well hey, isn't no crime rate better than a crime rate so large that there isn't even a law enforcement agency? It was like MegaCity 1 without the Judges. And then Curze came along.

[Conn Eremon]

But it only lasted as long as Curze was present, acting all threatening like.

 

Mortarion promised the end of all Necromancer Overlords. For the remainder of Barbarus' life, ended during the Scouring I presume, how many Necromancer Overlords were there?

[Kol Saresk]

None. But of course, after a certain point there was no life on Barbarus. And actually, it lasted until "the memory of Curze faded". At least one generation. But that's the thing, when Curze left Nostramo, he left. We only see a group of Night Lords returning to see how its hanging. And yet the original predication is judging Curze because 1.) his homeworld went into rebellion(which a total of nine known homeworlds did), 2.) he didn't leave Nostramo better than he found it(but when he left it was rich, a trade hub and had no crime rate) and 3.) his homeworld was destroyed(which happened to a total of ten known homeworlds). So all in all, by those criteria, we have a total of ten Primarchs who are failures because their homeworlds were either destroyed, rebelled or were not left better than they were found.

 

All I'm doing is sarcastically pointing out why the line of thinking is "eh". Did Nostramo fall apart? Yes. Was Curze a failure as a Primarch? Yes. Was Nostramo Curze's fault? Not really. It'd be like saying a gang war is the police's fault because they aren't as strict as they used to be. Could he have done a better job? Yes.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Nostramo was a place before Curze arrived and he scared an entire planet into submission by tearing people apart with his hands. A shadow in a land of darkness. Curze brought peace to that world and it brought him no inner-peace obviously but he was certainly no failure by that measure. If planetary improvement was the goal Curze improved the place (Nostramo) when he came back: nuked it from orbit. Why not start new in a few hundred years when the fires die down and a Imperial colonization fleet is mustered to actually get to the place? Sure he was the Sword of Damocles hanging over Nostramo when he was the active regent/GDBatman but that was his job; the Emperor loved it when the NLs would force self-purges by systems just to keep them out ("Pay dem taxes yo") and would even turn the other cheek to their... ultraviolent proclivities.

Could have Curze done a better job Kol? I am not sure. He brought a world under heel. Konrad was also... well... Konrad. I think any Primarch put in the situation would have done a better job (yes even Angron) with leaving behind a culture or idea or philosophy of being something to aspire to in their Legion/planet's life path. Curze was an object to be feared, not aspired to. Angron's martial prowess got him respect, Lion's tactical acumen, Rob G's 'Logistics', yadda yadda. What is Curze known for? Ripping people apart. Making people fear him and his Legion. Having crazy visions, and not cute or helpful ones like that Winged Pretty guy or the Cyclops but visions of darkness and dear ol' Dad coming to kill you; you know, that loveable guy the Master of All-Mankind. Curze knew he was the monster in the darkness and that his "father" was a monster as well. I wonder what Angron would have been like in Curze's place?!

Wade: Russ left a difference in the culture of Fenris for sure! He became the uber-Fenrisian when he adopted the culture and became the primary figure across the tribes to aspire to. Someone badass enough that all the hard-headed and disparate tribespeopele of Fenris could point to and be like "Hey, you want to deliver epic thrashings? Do it like Russ." I totally agree however that Russ did not seem to change Fenris (unlike Sangy's rad-mutant purges *snicker* and Mort's deathquest) as it created hearty warriors ready for recruitment who likely survived much bloodshed or near-death to the rigors of the deathworld and tribal culture.

edit: What the hell did Big-E really promise Konrad to get him to be the Punisher in the Forever War? Argh :\

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, Curze could have left a lasting piece. Also, shattering a planet into oblivion kind of makes it hard for resettlement.

[Karthak]

None. But of course, after a certain point there was no life on Barbarus. And actually, it lasted until "the memory of Curze faded". At least one generation. But that's the thing, when Curze left Nostramo, he left. We only see a group of Night Lords returning to see how its hanging. And yet the original predication is judging Curze because 1.) his homeworld went into rebellion(which a total of nine known homeworlds did), 2.) he didn't leave Nostramo better than he found it(but when he left it was rich, a trade hub and had no crime rate) and 3.) his homeworld was destroyed(which happened to a total of ten known homeworlds). So all in all, by those criteria, we have a total of ten Primarchs who are failures because their homeworlds were either destroyed, rebelled or were not left better than they were found.

All I wondered was why Nostramo didn't have an Astartes presence that could have upheld Konrad's laws.