How was Nostramo allowed to degenerate so?

[Xin Ceithan]

Didn't the Old fluff also state that Curze's Visions (Curzes' visions - I still mix this up :p ) were always -or at least increasingly so- visions of Worst case scenarios? That may turn one a bit fatalistic? In Soul Hunter he is quoted to have an "Do you really think what happens to you when I ' m gone? " attitude towards his very own Astatertes. How much more indifferent would he be possibly be towards humans?

I would also think that his fatalistic streak got worse over time. He didn't give up on Nostramo in the beginning:

Curze left it "better" - especially on a galactic scale: Fluff says it was a busy trade nexus. Resources and Recruits for the Imperial cause.

On local scale probably much nicer than say Caliban or Fenris:

Zero crime rate. Trains on time. Clean streets. No running in the hallways.

OR ELSE

Still ask yourself on which world you or - better yet - your next door neighbor would rather choose to live?

 

Also being the psycho he is/ turns out to be...if he allows some pesky human to kill him just to make his point, why wouldn't he allow ( not necessarily actively design/ force ) Nostramo to slip away into it's old ways just to prove his point?

"Look what I can turn this :cusshole into if I enforce my way! And look what a frigging mess the humans and my brothers and my frigging father allow this to become when I turn around!"

[Kol Saresk]

Not to mention it helps put him into the mindset that everything is set in stone and predetermined, thus allowing Nostramo to become what it once was not only proves his point about control, but also proves his vision of Nostramo being destroyed by a spear of light.

[Brother Nihm]

That, and there's also the telekinetic-like blast in 'The Dark King'.

[Karthak]

Not to mention it helps put him into the mindset that everything is set in stone and predetermined, thus allowing Nostramo to become what it once was not only proves his point about control, but also proves his vision of Nostramo being destroyed by a spear of light.

I suppose this is the key. His visions-induced fatalism. If he hadn't had those visions, or had someone tutored him about them Dornian Heresy-style, who knows what might have happened?

[Hyaenidae]

 

Still ask yourself on which world you or - better yet - your next door neighbor would rather choose to live?

 

It is better to have dangerous freedom, rather than peaceful slavery.

[Phoebus]

Didn't the Old fluff also state that Curze's Visions (Curzes' visions - I still mix this up ) were always -or at least increasingly so- visions of Worst case scenarios? That may turn one a bit fatalistic? In Soul Hunter he is quoted to have an "Do you really think what happens to you when I ' m gone? " attitude towards his very own Astatertes. How much more indifferent would he be possibly be towards humans?

I would also think that his fatalistic streak got worse over time. He didn't give up on Nostramo in the beginning:

Yes, his visions were fatalistic - per the original Index Astartes: Bringers of Darkness article.

And no, he did not give up on Nostramo in the beginning, though one has to wonder to what degree his premonitions of violence and atrocity affected his methods. There was, at the beginning, something fundamental about Konrad Curze that strongly desired order and justice. Unfortunately, that something was utterly perverted by the environment he was seeking to correct and, possibly, his foreknowledge of what was to come. He became predatory and abusive in very short order, and clearly began to enjoy the power he wielded and the fear his actions caused. Probably the most interesting part of his old background material was the fact that, after he gained control of Nostramo Quintus, Curze balanced his reign of terror with temperance and benevolent wisdom.

Again, it's unfortunate that Konrad Curze was affected to such a degree by his own nature and Nostramo itself. The same Index Astartes shows that the people of that planet were not inherently criminal or evil. The crime that ran unchecked through Nostramo Quintus was a direct result of the corrupt rule of their hierarchy (both the government and the criminal organizations) and the horrific violence they employed to keep the abused, downtrodden, and impoverished people in check. This shouldn't come as any surprise to us: although there is no direct parallel to Nostramo Quintus or the Night Haunter in the real world, there is plenty of documented evidence showing that those very factors (abusive rule, corruption, violence, fear) tear at a society's integrity and result in further violence and instability. By basing his rule on fear and violence, the Night Haunter suppressed crime on Nostramo, but never effectively changed its people. He simply ensured they were too scared to do what people inevitably do when they are abused.

On local scale probably much nicer than say Caliban or Fenris:

Zero crime rate. Trains on time. Clean streets. No running in the hallways.

OR ELSE

Still ask yourself on which world you or - better yet - your next door neighbor would rather choose to live?

You're asking the question many tyrants have asked before. "Isn't the security and stability I provide the price of [insert whatever it is they demand of you]?" On a very general level, yes, Nostramo was certainly safer than Caliban or Fenris after Konrad Curze consolidated his rule.

A more accurate assessment, though, would point to the fact that, following the Lion's Crusade, Caliban was inherently dangerous due to flora and fauna - and not to due to parts of its society that systematically abused and oppressed everyone else (as the Nostraman criminals and civic leaders had). And even though the deadly nature of their planet forced the Calibanites to live in a sort of forced feudal society, the warrior-aristocracy that ruled and protected them was benevolent. It did not resort in brutality and terror to ensure that the people toed the line while they went out to fight the Great Beasts. Under the Lion, the Order became the greatest agency of defense and governance, and that meant that the social barriers of the old regime became increasingly irrelevant. So while a romp through the inherently dangerous forests of Caliban (especially as Aaron Dembski-Bowden envisioned them) was still a sure way to court death (by planet, insect, or animal predator), I would argue the people of Caliban felt more secure in their lot coexisting with one another and the Order than the Nostramans did with the Night Haunter.

Fenris is a different animal altogether, and not entirely a fair comparison, I would say. The absence of high technology meant that Leman Russ could never address the fundamental reason for human-on-human violence on his adopted homeworld: competition for resources.

[Xin Ceithan]

 

 

Still ask yourself on which world you or - better yet - your next door neighbor would rather choose to live?

 

It is better to have dangerous freedom, rather than peaceful slavery.

Which I would support.

But with the utmost respect, I do not consider your choice that of an "ordinary human" ;)

 

And which is why I am suggesting considering the choice of "the man next Door". Ever wonder why humans seem to tend towards strong, authoritarian leader styles during tough times? Willing to give up personal freedoms for "safety"? I'd argue the average human will likely choose the opressive safety of Nostramo under the Night Haunter over the dangerous freedom of Fenris in most cases.

 

Also -and returning from my rambling closer to the topic- if you reduce the pressure ( by Curze leaving ) some will seek freedom. freedom to return to the old ways perhaps? which in this case would be the not so nice ways of Nostramo. A few misfits a first. a theft here, a murder there. The first slips might have been retaliated by the resident Legion forces ..

I'm presuming there is some form of Legion force garrison. it's their home world after all and some one has to keep an eye out for recruits and initiation. Which makes one wonder what type of unlucky, unwanted poor soul get's left behind by the VIII.... "Sorry lads. we are going on a skinning and maiming tour around the galaxy. And you lucky few get to keep an eye on this booooring rock."

While I am along that train of thought...maybe the first few setbacks are done by Legionaries venting some frustration? That then encourage a few mortals? a few who actually get away with it for one reason or another? Even a couple of Astartes can not police an entire planet. Then the population looses their sense of security ...turns to other ways of protection. Of Vengeance. Sees no point in living under the oppressive fear when there is nothing to be gained by it. And so a few pepples start the avalanche that drags the whole planet downward?

[Xin Ceithan]

Just in case that needs to be said:

I, personally, do not encourage Curze way of running things.

I do tend to exaggerate some items to make appoint here. Which Wade's diary entry put up much more eloquently.

Curze left behind a " better" Nostramo. From a galactic, Imperial point of view. And a then contemporary Nostramian citizen might've been relieved and willing to accept the conditions for while. How ironic that this will be the state of affairs for a lot of imperial worlds in the 41st millennium...

As for Primarch / Legion " fails" I'd agree Lorgar failed. Hard. Again, from Imperial / the Emperor's viewpoint (all that religious nonsense keeping him from the real job)

In some ways, Nostramo's fate is very much the fate of Curze and the VIII

Flawed from the beginning and getting worse from there, self destructive and with delusions of grandeur and an overdose of melodrama ;)

.

[Phoebus]

Ever wonder why humans seem to tend towards strong, authoritarian leader styles during tough times? Willing to give up personal freedoms for "safety"? I'd argue the average human will likely choose the opressive safety of Nostramo under the Night Haunter over the dangerous freedom of Fenris in most cases.

I think that's too general a statement. And I would argue that history teaches us otherwise. The early colonists of North America, for example, chose a life of greater danger and freedom over "safer", "more structured" lives in totalitarian states that controlled politics, religion, etc.

Also -and returning from my rambling closer to the topic- if you reduce the pressure ( by Curze leaving ) some will seek freedom. freedom to return to the old ways perhaps? which in this case would be the not so nice ways of Nostramo. A few misfits a first. a theft here, a murder there.

You're confusing "freedom" with a reversion to what Nostramo was like before the Night Haunter. Prior to Curze, the Nostramans did not murder and steal as a means of expressing themselves. Crime was high as a result of a brutal and corrupt hierarchy that ruled without accountability over everyone and made normal people miserable and desperate to the point of horrific rates of suicide (to the point that they prevented overpopulation!). The Nostramans reverted to high crime rates because the Night Haunter didn't fundamentally change the people or their society - he simply terrorized them to the point that they were scared of even earning more money than their neighbor - thinking that would be evil in their new master's eyes.

What didn't help matters was the fact that...

The first slips might have been retaliated by the resident Legion forces ..

... Curze's Night Lords appear to have been sadists and tyrants from the get-go, and that, once their primarch departed for the Great Crusade, they probably became not too different from the gangsters who once ruled Nostramo. It can't be a coincidence that they didn't appear to even care that they were sending their legion murderers, rapists, etc.

While I am along that train of thought...maybe the first few setbacks are done by Legionaries venting some frustration? That then encourage a few mortals? a few who actually get away with it for one reason or another? Even a couple of Astartes can not police an entire planet. Then the population looses their sense of security ...turns to other ways of protection. Of Vengeance. Sees no point in living under the oppressive fear when there is nothing to be gained by it. And so a few pepples start the avalanche that drags the whole planet downward?

Bingo.

Curze left behind a " better" Nostramo. From a galactic, Imperial point of view. And a then contemporary Nostramian citizen might've been relieved and willing to accept the conditions for while.

That's the thing: they weren't. They were terrified. "Shared wealth and shared terror" is exactly how the Index Astartes describes their state.

As for Primarch / Legion " fails" I'd agree Lorgar failed. Hard. Again, from Imperial / the Emperor's viewpoint (all that religious nonsense keeping him from the real job)

I don't think Lorgar was by any means the best of the primarchs in terms of how he served and united his planet and its people. I don't necessarily think he was among the better ones. I think the order probably goes like this:

1. Fulgrim - he quite literally saved the people of Chemos and proved an enlightened, visionary ruler
2. Mortarion - he defied his upbringing and single-handedly led the people of Barbarus against their horrific oppressors
3. Magnus - he cleansed Prospero of its most insidious predators and ushered in a golden age of learning and peace
4. The Lion - he united the knighthoods of Caliban and wiped out the Great Beasts that terrorized his people
5. Sanguinius - he saved the people of Baal Secundus from the cannibalistic mutants that had made war on them
6. Vulkan - he rallied the people of Nocturne against their Dark Eldar tormentors
7. Corax - he freed the slaves of Deliverance from their oppressive masters
8. The Khan - he defeated an oppressive empire that had hunted his people for sport
9. Lorgar - he brought about an age of peace and unity vis-a-vis global holy war

I don't put Guilliman and Dorn up there because, although they were indisputably great primarchs, their experiences reflect a best-case scenario. They did great things (Guilliman especially), but they largely did so through societies that were already highly advanced.

There are also a few exceptiona to the rule. Russ, for instance, didn't have even the comparatively primitive technology available to the Lion, nor did he have a stable enough ecology to conquer, like the Khan. Horus don't even appear to have spent enough time on Cthonia to affect a change. And who knows how Angron would have turned out sans Butcher's Nails*.

In my eyes Lorgar is the point at which, looking at the list of the known primarchs, we see someone accomplishing things that might be great in terms of scale, but not so much where the well-being of their people is concerned. His idyllic society, after all, is the product of a global holy war. And I can't recall to what extent he was fighting "evil" religions.

After Lorgar are three primarchs whose depiction is at best cold and callous. Perturabo in essence refuses to get involved with a planet ruled by a self-styled tyrant who imposed his will via war. One can wonder if Perturabo's adopted father was really any worse than Konor of Macragge, but it is qualified that the "son" was cold and distant. Ferrus Manus is like a force of nature, who spend much of his time on Medusa uncaring of the well-being of its people, and heedless of the wars they waged among themselves - seeing it as something healthy. It wasn't until after Ferrus was satisfied with his own travels and feats of strength that he invested time in teaching the roaming clans of Medusa his knowledge. And of Konrad Curze, we have already spoken so much.

* I think the Forgeworld Heresy books and the Heresy novels have given enough clues pointing to the fact that the Legions were pre-ordained for certain purposes. The Emperor instilled canine genetics in the primarch whose Legion would come to be identified with wolves. The World Eaters were savage and ruthless before ever finding their primarch. The Night Lords were feared, vicious killers before Nostramo was discovered. So on, so forth. I think it stands to reason that, even if Angron had not suffered the kiss of the Butcher's Nails, he would have been a ruthless warlord. Perhaps he would not have turned traitor, but I highly doubt he would have been more "pleasant" than, say, Ferrus Manus.

[Wade Garrett]

Umm, Wade, ever since time immemorial when the IA articles were forged from the very stuff of the primordial universe, Curze has been written as being precognitive. I could be wrong, but precognition is a trait of being a psyker. So... :whistling:

I am no warp touched sorceror, or fallen weaver of spells. I share the gene seed of the Night Haunter. From my father-not the Ruinous Powers did I inherit this...gift."

Soul Hunter, page 162

 

"How many of our brothers only claim the Primarch's foresight after mastering the secrets of the Warp? But not you. No-no, not Talos of the Tenth."

Blood Reaver, page 140

 

But I'm sure Talos was just a latent psyker. Like Sevatar. Who is a latent psyker and also cool. Therefore every other character ever must also be a latent psyker. Every. Other. Character. Ever.

 

Lotarra? Latent psyker. Khârn? Latent psyker. Warsmith Dantioch? Latent psyker! Ollanus Pious? LATENT PSYKER!

 

In the grim latent psykerness of the latent future, there are only psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers latent psykers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Latent psyker.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually all that says is whatever gave Talos his foresight came from the gene-seed, it was neither a warp-mutation nor a product of his own genes. It does not say if the gift itself is a psyker ability or not.

[GhostMalone]

Wade are you trying to tell us something?

 

 

 

Are you trying to tell us your a latent psyker?

[Conn Eremon]

Wade are you trying to tell us something?

 

 

 

Are you trying to tell us your a latent psyker?

Maybe that's why he hates it being used so much. Makes him less of a special snowflake. :p

 

 

In all seriousness, the point he is making is that one could make the insinuation that the foretelling is not a psyker gift. It is not Warp-based.

 

But, to me that just doesn't seem likely. There is no other source of power. It isn't like there are psykers and psychics. The psykers are the psychics. The psychics are the psykers. And all talents to that nature are borne from the Warp.

[Kol Saresk]

Although how one obtains such power is varied. Some are born, some are mutated and apparently some can get it from organ donors.

[Ratboy1664]

How long before the fall of Nostromo becomes an Alpha Legion plot.....

[Wade Garrett]

Stepping back a bit, I may be engaging in some of that "Wolf Priests draw on the natural powers of Fenris" folderol that I have sneered at others for in the past.

 

But it's different because....er..

Talos doesn't live on Fenris! So there!

[Xin Ceithan]

Kudos to Phoebus and I am loving your "Primarch 101" there

 

And isn't foresight in the Divination discipline? Sounds pretty psyky to me...

Do agree that the latent psyker thing seems somewhat virulent (Even if imitation may be the most honest form of flattery)

[frostclaw222]

Russ preferred Fenris as it was, so he left it that way, as what better way to make strong recruits than an un-pacified Death World?

 

But I will add this: He did leave it with the biggest planetary fortification outside of the Emperor's Palace on Terra. It has withstood a full-on attack from a depleted Legion (Thousand Sons) and the mustered might of a renegade but very empowered Ecclesiarch. I reckon that's a bit of an improvement over the pre-Fang, pre-Legion Fenris, no? 

 

Angron never got the chance, and when he came back, he was steeped in Khornate juju, thanks to Lorgar. Fair nuff. 

 

Magnus's blinkered pursuit of power post-Nikkea damned his world. Pride led to the fall. 

 

Perty and Konrad...yeah, they screwed up. But, to be fair, their upbringing and coming-to-power were...atypical. 

 

The Lion needed a PR man, and still had problems in his backfield, sure. But if Luther hadn't unified and added astartes strength to the rebellion, I doubt Caliban would be fragments and a memory now. 

 

I was actually a little shocked that Malcador and the Emperor chose Monarchia as the spot of Lorgar's shaming, instead of the Legion homeworld. But, eh. Maybe E/M didn't want to humiliate him in front of his recruiting pool?

 

The rest are fairly clear to me, outside of Horus. Cthonia we don't hear much of, once Horus has left it. I'd be very, very interested to see a novella that covered both Horus's rise to power, and the period during and after the Emperor arrived there. 

[Wade Garrett]

I think that's too general a statement. And I would argue that history teaches us otherwise. The early colonists of North America, for example, chose a life of...

Committing genocide, owning other human beings like cattle, and hanging people whose religious beliefs they disagreed with.

 

If I may be serious for a moment...I'd argue that greed and ambition drew many more people to the New World than a nebulous longing for freedom.

 

After all, we ungrateful Colonials only turned on Mater Britain when she began to meddle with our pocketbooks.

[Frosco Toppings]

The Night Lords were cursed from the start. You can tell by just how much the names Curze and Nostramo are misspelled.

[Sanct]

Been reading this thread and keep coming back to the idea of Nostramo degeneration. In particular the idea that Nostramo under Kurze was a perfectly peaceful and obedient place.

Kurze - despite being a primarch - is not omnipresent and his ability to 'police' the people of Nostramo is ironically, akin to the idea of batman. It's not the inescapable, commit-a-crime-and-you-will-be-caught but what he does to you once you're caught. So anyone who can appear innocent to Kurze (or is never even associated with the crime inquestion) will never be punished.
This would create a near darwinian psychopathic society. Those with just enough social awareness (to avoid being seen in any way as a suspect/criminal/perpetrator of a crime) and those just psychopathic enough (to carry out the crimes in the first place) would develop more and more and begin to thrive. Psychopathy in the populace would almost be bred into them as well since brutality is historic (it used to be a societal norm) and is still used (Kurze publicly transmits the punishments to the entire planet) - imagine how child development would be affected by this.

Now imagine these as the first inductees - bred to avoid being seen as criminal and morally altered by growing up with torture/murder reality tv instead of a Law&Order style media show. Imagine them, in the prime of their prepubescent years, being turned into Astartes - by Astartes who themselves were born and raised in the depths of the 'prison sinks of Ancicent Terra' [HH2: Massacre] and being told to police Nostramo as Kurze did.


I'd be surprised the 'degeneration' would take more than a generation.


My point is that there would still have been people getting away with crimes on Nostramo under Kurze's rule. They just didn't publicly show their true colours and that affected how the society appeared.

[Xin Ceithan]

Sanct makes a pretty good point here

[Wade Garrett]

The problem is, how do you hide

a crime from a Primarch that can re-live your victim's last moments just by tasting their blood, is pretty much as unbound by things like due process and privacy rights, and gets the occasional honest to goodness prophetic vision?

 

Curze is an interesting character

because his methods brought a peaceful golden age (of a sort) to Nostromo, and he committed his atrocities with a higher purpose than mere sadism.

 

Take that away, and you just have this evil pale man evilly chuckling as he skins babies because he is EVIL! EVIL! EEEEEVIL!

 

Essentially, a Hobo Chaos Fulgrim.

[Kol Saresk]

And I'm not sure I'd call Nostramo perfectly peaceful either. As Heathens said, this was a dictatorship. Everything you did was under a microscope. It was "peaceful" because there was the absence of conflict, not because everyone held hands and sang and dance.

[Phoebus]

 

I think that's too general a statement. And I would argue that history teaches us otherwise. The early colonists of North America, for example, chose a life of...

Committing genocide, owning other human beings like cattle, and hanging people whose religious beliefs they disagreed with.

 

If I may be serious for a moment...I'd argue that greed and ambition drew many more people to the New World than a nebulous longing for freedom.

 

After all, we ungrateful Colonials only turned on Mater Britain when she began to meddle with our pocketbooks.

 

I just don't see how we can make blanket statements about this sort of thing.  Were there adventurers heading to North America from the 1600s?  Sure.  In large part, though, the early movements were defined by people willing to brave a very dangerous place for religious freedom or for the privilege to till a field in North Carolina or New England without having to be beholden to an aristocrat or a landowner.

 

But whatever the motivations of those early colonists may have been, the point I made in response to Xin Ceithan stands.  It's too simplistic to assume that people will choose an oppressive, "safe" dictatorship over a life that offers more freedom and more danger.

 

The problem is, how do you hide

a crime from a Primarch that can re-live your victim's last moments just by tasting their blood, is pretty much as unbound by things like due process and privacy rights, and gets the occasional honest to goodness prophetic vision?

 

Curze is an interesting character

because his methods brought a peaceful golden age (of a sort) to Nostromo, and he committed his atrocities with a higher purpose than mere sadism.

 

Take that away, and you just have this evil pale man evilly chuckling as he skins babies because he is EVIL! EVIL! EEEEEVIL!

 

Essentially, a Hobo Chaos Fulgrim.

 

I think the most likely answer is that he was a multifaceted character.  Konrad Curze would hardly be the first character to start on a path of righteousness only to be corrupted by the dangerous combination of violence, power, having no one to be accountable to, and possessing an abundance of self-righteousness.