Making Berzerkers/MoK work in 7th

[Dragonlover]

Hi all!

 

Inspired by Bonzi's thread over in the Legion of Excess forum regarding Noise Marines, I want to talk about effectively using Khorne Berzerkers and units with the Mark of Khorne.

 

First up, a bit about where I'm coming from with this. I'm not a tournament player, I personally couldn't give a monkeys about countering Screamerstar/Cronair/whatever the other power builds are. That said, if you are, pitch in, because I'd love the input from that side of things. I just think that hurling a bunch of chainaxe wielding nutters at the enemy is a viable tactic, despite constant assertions to the contrary.

 

First off, my thoughts on Khorne specific stuff:

 

Khârn: I've never used him. I started playing back in 3rd when special characters were by agreement only and so on, and so ended up sticking with my Chaos Lord ever since. That said, he's pretty killy, as the 'Today Khârn killed...' thread will attest.

 

Axe of Blind Fury: I've used it a few times, the wielder has always killed himself. That said, it is very potent and if I didn't need the points elsewhere I'd have a second Lord with one.

 

Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne: Unlocks Berzerkers, so necessary. I sling lightning claws on mine.

 

Khorne Berzerkers: Yup, awesome. Trust me on this. Four WS5, S5 attacks per guy on the charge means that in most cases, you're swinging more times than your opponent. Sure, losing the +1I on Furious Charge sucks, but you've still got 3+ saves to get you through the backswing.

 

Chain axe: Irrelevant. Unless of course your meta is GEQ heavy, in which case I'd probably consider putting some in my squads, but ultimately decide against it in favour of getting more bodies on the ground.

 

Mark of Khorne: I like it. Makes winning that initial charge both easier and slightly critical, otherwise you tend to get bogged down.

 

---------------

 

I've been playing a Berzerker army on and off for a while now, and first I went with the obvious: 10 man squad, stick it in a Rhino. The problem there of course is that you get out of the Rhino, get shot to pieces and then achieve nothing. I then played around with Land Raiders, but they cost too much, and stop me from taking Defilers. In the end, I've settled on the following list:

 

HQ

Lord, Mark of Khorne, Vets, Twin Lightning Claws, Sigil, Meltabombs - 140

 

Troops

13x Khorne Berzerkers with Vets - 270

 

13x Khorne Berzerkers with Vets - 270

 

12x Khorne Berzerkers with Vets - 250

 

Rhino with Dirge Caster - 40

 

Rhino with Dirge Caster - 40

 

Rhino with Dirge Caster - 40

 

Fast Attack

5x Raptors with Vets and Mark of Khorne, 2x Meltagun, Meltabombs - 140

 

5x Raptors with Vets and Mark of Khorne, 2x Meltagun, Meltabombs - 140

 

8x Bikers with Vets, Mark of Khorne, 2x Meltaguns (on the bike, not the rider), Meltabombs - 219

 

Heavy Support

Defiler with Power Scourge, extra power fist, dirge caster - 225

 

Defiler with Power Scourge, extra power fist, dirge caster - 225

 

Total points: 1999

 

Now, I know what you're thinking, You;re thinking, 'But Dragonlover, you could save a bunch of points by dropping Vets!'. Yes, yes I could, but 99% of my games are against Marines, and that re-roll really comes in handy, so I'm happy to pay it. Plus, my guys *are* Veterans of the Long War, so they get the upgrade.

 

The workhorse in this list is the humble Rhino. It provides mobile cover for my mobs of dudes, and then stops them from being shot when they charge. In addition, I use them to foul up my opponents lanes of movement. They spent yesterday hemming a Land Raider Redeemer in. I also sometimes use them to move a depleted unit of Berzerkers over to an objective, if all my movement has lined up nicely.

 

The Raptors and Bikers harry heavy infantry/vehicles. Sometimes I'll deep strike the Raptors, but it depends on how I'm feeling on the day.

 

The Defilers charge forwards and punch things in the face. Every now and then I'll take a pot shot with the battle cannon, but it's very rare. The power scourge is a must. I'm occasionally tempted to leave the Reaper Autocannon on there, but my models aren't set up for it and I'd just forget.

 

The Berzerkers do what they do best: stride up the field covered by 3 Rhinos and 2 Defilers, then charge something and gut it. My Lord goes in the 12 man squad. The reason I have 13 man units is that it's large enough to absorb some casualties and still be effective when it gets to the other side of the board, but small enough that it doesn't get in the way of itself or other units whilst moving.

 

I've only had one full game with the 2000 point list which I lost thanks to a failed leaderhip roll by the bikers, but I've used 2 different 1500 point lists (either drop the Defilers and one biker or all the Fast Attack, makes a 1500 point list) and they've done me proud. I have, however, identified one main issue: I lose challenges. Trouble is, I don't want to drop 90 points worth of stuff to power weapon all my champions, and only having a few power weapons would bug me, since all these units (except possibly the Raptors) are destined for combat eventually. Eh, I might try dropping a biker and 2 Berzerkers (or something like that) and putting power weapons on the Skull Champions and the Biker Champion, see how that works.

 

So, there you have it. All discussion welcome, but please, keep the negativity to a minimum.

 

Dragonlover

[Brother Dallo]

If you can squeeze 10 points from somewhere, I'd suggest swapping one of the Lord's claws for a powerfist. It's still a Specialist Weapon, so you still get the extra attack for having two, and you can choose to use the fist when facing 2+ saves, high toughness etc. It also benifits from the extra attack given by having two Specialist Weapons.

 

Dallo

[Dragonlover]

Ooh, hadn't thought of that. Still, where am I getting those points from? I may try a smaller bike squad at some point to get the points for power weapons and a power fist, but that's about the only thing I could cut and then I have a 4 man bike squad, which feels pretty fragile.

 

Dragonlover

[Lord Tarkin]

Hmm, gotta say, love the way you think. Due to the heavy influx of range oriented armies (the rules have went from heavy CC to very shooty) Ive been forced to add regular chaos marine squads to add firepower for my tide of berzerkers. Similar to you, I usually bring defilers regardless of who im facing. I do use Kharne in my army, he is very useful minus the killing if his own men. Like i said on my link i have a lot of trouble with necrons and honestly cant stand them.

[Deadman Wade]

First, some thought about Khârn - he is awesome, absolutely the best choppy HQ when it comes to killing power and cost efficiency. 7 attacks with S7 AP2 at ini5, always hitting on 2+ with re-rolls due to Hatred Incarnate, he will cut through any squad without 3++ save (even then he can kill 2-3 terminators on his own), also, 2+ DtW and Force Weapon instant death immunity, all of this for 160 points. Also, you can drop Veterans on a squad he's leading, since he gives them Hatred.

He's very squishy though and quite a fire magnet, so he requires careful positioning.

And he's very good in challenges, 'cause it's usually almost guaranteed 7 AP2 wounds to his opponent. We were having some dueling contests with HQs one day and Khârn defeated every opponent, except Abaddon (got smashed by a Talon of Horus before he could swing), Calgar, Typhus and Chapter Master after causing at least 2 unsaved wounds to each, all of then cost more than 200 points though.

As for regular HQs, I'd take a bike or juggernaut for a Chaos Lord.

[Lord Tarkin]

Very true. I always take abaddon though, you cant go wrong with him. I would definitely take a lord on a juggernaut. Very powerful. Have yet to get mine though. Khârn is absolutely amazing but like u said, but point a missile launcher at him and hes gone. Another thing is the killing of his own people. Im glad we have cultists now, cuz they will be perfect cannon fodder. Perfect. I would never put him with berzerkers for obvious reasons,way to many points to be lost.

[Deadman Wade]

Very true. I always take abaddon though, you cant go wrong with him. I would definitely take a lord on a juggernaut. Very powerful. Have yet to get mine though. Khârn is absolutely amazing but like u said, but point a missile launcher at him and hes gone. Another thing is the killing of his own people. Im glad we have cultists now, cuz they will be perfect cannon fodder. Perfect. I would never put him with berzerkers for obvious reasons,way to many points to be lost.

Well, killing his own squad is an issue only when combat lasts more than one round, it's hard to fail 2+ to hit with re-rolls. I take 20-man berzerkers squad, they benefit the most from hatred IMO (3+ to hit with re-rolls and 3+ to wound usually enough to kill a 5-man terminator squad with 10 berzerkers).

He can be vulnerable to S8 weapons, but usually "Look out, sir" is enough to keep him safe from ranged weapons.

What's good with Khârn is that you can throw him at any squad without fear of bad rolling (like 1s for Daemon Weapons), and expect to cause enough unsaved wounds to win combat.

[Lord Tarkin]

I guess your right there. Reward is worth the risk. I remember putting Khârn in a 15 man possessed marine squad. Midway through the battle i had 6 possessed left with Khârn still there. Charged a space marine sternguard squad and i actually rolled 5 1s out of 7! Then wounded every time. Made only one invunerable for those poor guys. 4 of them got cut down by that beast. Possessed are like 25 a model. So ive had nightmares ever since. I'll conquer my fear eventually and throw him in a squad of berzerkers

[the jeske]

Yes, yes I could, but 99% of my games are against Marines, and that re-roll really comes in handy,

how offten do you need to re-roll hiting on +3 , there are few meqs that have a WS higher then 4 , which aren't characters.

 

As the list goes .

 

I don't understand the dirge casters. rhinos , which you can't even embark on [?] , will not live long enough to be used and they give up first blood . Overwatch does not hurt meq as much as horde armies and if it does , then it is mostly against armies that will kill your list what ever you take the dirge or not . having 3 troops at 1999 is suicide . at more then 1500 you should have 4 minimum.

 

That is all that can be done . The list is still going to be realy weak [and I did read the non tournament thing . It is going to be weak against casual lists] . No long range support , no helldrakes to help with dealing with opposing army flyers and support units . Slow, and melee , with a bad at melee core [zerkers] of the list.

 

Defilers . You want to use them . You choice , but they are right now what carnifexs were for nid players in the 6th codex. They are around 60-80 pts overcosted when naked . If you want walkers to do melee you should be runing maulerfiends, but it is your choice.

 

Lords . you take a khorn your , you take the ax . Or to be more precise to get the ax you take the khorn lord and it is a bit of a handicap considering you lock yourself in to zerkers .

 

FA

you need to run at least 1 helldrake .

if you want anti tank , take bikers and not raptors . bikers are cheaper , even if you take the bad MoK and give the same meltaguns

8 man biker units are too big . 6 is more optimal and normaly you would be runing them with a sorc and a lord , but this being a khorn list locks you out of it . Two lords then one with the ax and another with a fist+claw . Both on bikes . You only take the jugger if your playing dual FoC and have a spawn unit in one of your detachments. The biker champion is one of the few chaos champions that can do ok with a power weapons [ax] .

 

 

Troops

Normaly in a build like this , you would be runing huron to give the zerkers infitlration or at least trade all the zerkers for khorn CSM.

Sadly this can't be done here . So . Take 9 man zerker units , drop the rhinos and buy a fourth unit of zerkers and a unit of cultists to hide on your home base objective .

[Tenebris]

With Khorne armies you want to be in melee asap, but you would also have to keep some forces behind to support your forward elements with fire or to keep the objectives in your half of the board. 

 

I agree with Jeske on most things since I play from time to time a berzerker list. You need a Helldrake to provide you with some MEQ killing and due to it being a nice distraction. If you want to field Rhinos than spam Rhino squads in order to overload your enemy with targets or simply drop them and make a tide list with tons of infantry. 

 

You need Troops, you need at least four troops and you need at least a cheap troop choice to stay in the backfield and cap an objective. Unlike old times nowadays it is all about objectives and as a Khorne army you have to either kill the enemy troops or Rhino rush them from the objective. Do not seek to eliminate all the enemy elements, your priority are always the troops with your harassing elements in the form of bikers or even raptors used to cripple the enemy support units. 

 

A Khorne lord is a nasty thing when used properly and you should really create a proper escort for him. You can field him on foot in a massive blob of cultists (though Khârn works better here), you can place him in a Land Raider with a solid squad of zerkers or even Mutilators, or you can deliver him via bike, juggy or jet pack. But the point is to use him to break those units that can be dispatched in a single turn.

 

The problem about Khorne armies is that all your bonus attacks last only a single turn, the turn when you charge. It is always better to open the charge with a unit than can handle snapfire (Maulerfiend) and than follow with your Berzerkers. Also since you have Rhinos you should contemplate to Tank Rush enemy units from the objectives and follow up with bolt pistol fire. 

 

Playing Khorne is all about target priority and your berzerkers work best against the enemy troops. This should be always their priority target. The question you should ask yourself is what do you need to help your berzerkers in killing the enemy troops?

[Deadman Wade]

Berzerkers kill enemy troops reliably and without any need for help if they can catch them, except when facing lists with something fast (like bikes or fast transports), but they really need support to threaten enemy's long-range shooting units and vehicles.

[Tenebris]

They do that thing fine indeed, but they must be free to kill enemy troops, which means the transports must be popped, the troops flushed out of cover or pinned by fire and the other elements of the enemy army either destroyed or tackled so that they cannot come to the rescue for the berzerkers are killy only in the first round of combat, than they loose steam. 

[Trevak Dal]

In a list like this, how would you theoretically deal with monstrous creatures (wraith lords, Avatar, etc)?  I know shooting is the best way...I've been lucky with Khârn twice against a WL and Avatar (in one game).  I really want to play a Close Combat army, but I'm just now sure I can justify that with the crippling lack of ability to reach out and touch an enemy.

[Dragonlover]

@ thejeske: Yes, the re-rolls help. One of the key things that needs to be done (as mentioned elsewhere) is that you need to win the combats in one go, or risk getting bogged down. Against Marines my hit-rate is around 90% thanks to the re-rolls, and this helps finish the combats quickly. Yeah, I'm weak against flyers, not really sure what to do there as I don't want to run a Heldrake. As to the 'Rhino's provide the enemy with easy First Blood!' well... I just go in knowing I'm probably gonna be 1-0 down, and if I get first turn I rejoice.

 

As to the number of squads, I found that having smaller squads in Rhinos just didn't work for me. First off, I have to spend a turn disembarking. Secondly, if the Rhino gets delayed/blown up, it scuppers the guys inside in a variety of ways. Thirdly, it's the aforementioned issue with squad size. Say I disembark 9 guys. They don't get into combat that turn, then get shot up, I lose 3 guys, then get assaulted. It's not been the best tactic for me thus far, and was one of the things that lead to the creation of this list.

 

The monstrous creature issue: lob a Defiler at it. That's pretty much it, and so far that's purely theoretical, but it makes sense.

 

I'm keeping at least one squad of Raptors, I just converted them up and I'm not dismantling them. Might try a Lord on bike at some point though.

 

Dragonlover

[trevoroftzeentch]

MoK units I've had success with:

 

1.Chaos Lord on juggernaut w/ axe of blind fury and Sigil of corruption. Good killy T5 lord just don't roll 1's in cc. Run him with bikers or spawn.

 

2. Chosen with MoK. They have 2 attacks base + 1 for cc weapon and pistol and +2 on charge that's 5 attacks on the charge. 1 more than berserkers. I run abaddon take 8 chosen w/ MoK and 5 flamers and put them in a land raider w/ dozer blade and dirge caster. Icon of wrath is optional.

[Dragonlover]

MoK units I've had success with:

 

1.Chaos Lord on juggernaut w/ axe of blind fury and Sigil of corruption. Good killy T5 lord just don't roll 1's in cc. Run him with bikers or spawn.

 

2. Chosen with MoK. They have 2 attacks base + 1 for cc weapon and pistol and +2 on charge that's 5 attacks on the charge. 1 more than berserkers. I run abaddon take 8 chosen w/ MoK and 5 flamers and put them in a land raider w/ dozer blade and dirge caster. Icon of wrath is optional.

 

Now this gives me an idea - run the Black Legion supplement to get rid of the Abaddon tax and run a few smaller squads of Chosen with Mark of Khorne and various weapons in Rhinos. I pay for Vets anyway so that doesn't bother me, and the fact they can take guns means that the turn spent getting out of the Rhino isn't entirely wasted.

 

@zoran: Suddenly realised I'd not said anything about Necron killing. I've not faced them with this army, but my usual tactic is to pick a unit and concentrate on it, otherwise half the buggers get back up. Ghost Arks are my main non-Warrior priority as a rule.

 

Draonlover

[crimsonhand]

I like your ideas. I like Khârn a lot. I think he can be f'n awesome in a gigantic unit of Chaos Cultists MoK, 
They have 2+ against any 'magics', they are fearless, and put out a sh*t load of attacks when they get there. They can also screen bzkers. 

I of course like Helldrakes. They help against SO MUCH. 

Also, Ive thought about doing the 15 Spawn trick. They really can be a b*tch for people to handle, or even 5, and a Maulerfiend. That thing can RACE across the board. 

[Trevak Dal]

IDK man...a Defiler against an Avatar would be a poor match up (Initiative 10), and he can take the 'disarming strike' power (Which is a real downer when you pay for a daemon weapon and he then disallows you from using it...)

Wraith Lords are Toughness 8.  E-i-g-h-t.  It's always annoying to take on-my Red Corsairs can concentrate fire and take down the Avatar, but do sweet frack-all against the Wraith Lord.

I think the best bet-with what I got (if I didn't want to take Tau allies, which are of my main army, and I can bring The Unkindess down with them something fierce-but I don't want to go that route) might be two Helbrutes going after the Wraith Lord-they'd strike at the same time, but they'd be s10 and two might tip the scale, and shooting the crap out of the Avatar with havoks and a defiler, maybe assaulting with the defiler (since I'm going last anyways...), and doing something to keep the Fire Dragon and Dark Reaper elfs at bay (I'm thinking Spawn, because I got lots of Greenstuff and Mutation and possessed bits and some 40mm bases).

 

Start hammering the WL with the MultiMeltas as I move them up the board, Zerkers go after softer targets and do what they do best (insert Grunt "Heh heh heh")

I don't have enough for 'big' squads, maybe 3 squads of 10-11, though I have 2 x 10 units of cultists now to camp Objectives.

[Dragonlover]

Ok, so the Avatar stops one if your Defilers fists, that's still five attacks on the charge (I'm assuming all CCWs here). Ok, yes, you go last but that's generally true. Does a power scourge help at all? I'm guessing not but it's worth asking. Hey, if the Obliterators aren't shooting at a Wraithlord that turn, they could always chuck a volley of shots at it.

 

Anyone got much experience with Khorne daemons as allies? I was toying with a Herald and some Bloodletters but never got around to it.

 

Dragonlover

[FENRISÚLFUR]

I have about 30 Bloodletters that I was going to use as 'cheap' objective campers when I ally with Chaos Daemons. Seems to me that they would be a good counter assault unit, and the Herald can be kept cost efficient while still adding some punch to a unit of bloodletters.

 

I haven't used this configuration out yet, but I have a tentative game this weekend and I'll try them out.

[Minsc]

I'm gonna attend a quite big 1995pts-tourney in March, and I will play World Eaters.

 

I don't expect, nor do I intend to win alot, but I do intend to shed blood for the blood god. After all, Khorne cares not from who the blood flows, as long as it flows...

 

This is my list at the moment:

 

=HQ=

 

*Chaos Lord (Warlord)

Mark of Khorne, Veteran of the Long War, Sigil of Corruption,

Gift of Mutation, Juggernaught of Khorne, Axe of Blind Fury.

 

*Khârn the Betrayer

 

=Troops=

 

*10x Khorne Berzerkers

 

*10x Khorne Berzerkers

 

*15x Cultists (Khârn here.)

 

=Elites=

 

*Helbrute

Multimelta, Powerfist.

 

=Fast Attack=

 

*10x Chaos Bikers

Mark of Khorne, Icon of Wrath, Powersword, 2x Meltaguns

 

*10x Chaos Raptors

Mark of Khorne, Icon of Wrath, Powersword, 2x Meltaguns

 

*5x Chaos Spawns (Riderless Juggernaughts, Chaos Lord here.)

 

=Heavy Support=

 

*Forge Fiend

2x Hades Cannons

 

*Maulerfiend

Magmacutters

 

*Maulerfiend

Lasher Tendrils

 

1995/1995 pts!

[Trevak Dal]

Been trying a beserker list with MSU unupgraded beserker squads (5 5 man squads with a meltabomb on the champ).

 

The theory behind it being that there's on a set amount of turns and with the Tohou levels of shooting that can wipe out 20 man units of PA infantry, that I can give a hearty ":cuss you!" to that by taking smaller units so that all that shooting goes into 5 guys instead of 20.

 

I also don't bother with upgrades beyond the meltabomb, because my guys more often than not die in challenges.

 

Heck I even try to drop test the champions out of it, and they are the bullet catchers (leading from the front-no Look out sir) it's how I've successfully rolled the Avatar *Edit* A Wraith Lord, my apologies */edit* with Beserkers-no challenge blocking. Add to that, Beserkers are fearless, so they have to be killed to the last guy to free a unit.

 

You dog pile in spawn and big nasty shooting units or big nasty units just stay there while your scoring units go to ground on the objectives.

 

With my Red Corsairs, I tried a game using Space Shark chapter tactics with a drop pod list...and I'm not going to use chaos with them ever again it was so good.

 

Being able to put down dedicated transport drop pods and then break off into two combat squads is the coolest thing I've seen my marines do in 6th edition-and I really like my Shield Eternal and Burning blade Arty armor Captain.

[Dragonlover]

Got a full list for the MSU army? Might be interesting to try, everyone's kinda got used to me putting blobs down.

 

I've not had a chance to get any more games in with my Khorne lately, too into my Alpha Legion because I don't have to think as hard when playing them.

 

Dragonlover

[Trevak Dal]

Sure.  Uses the 'Standard Template Construct' AxeLord (if you don't have a JuggerLord...or three like I'll eventually have ;) )

 

I mainly built this army to get me used to my CSMs Dying like I am with my Tau.  Since I'm able to accept they're already dead, I can spend them where they will gain the most kills.

 

 

HQ:  Lord Mark of Khorne, Bike, Sigil of Corruption, Axe of Blind Fury, Meltabombs vets (if points allow, I give him a powerfist-daemon weapons are 'specialist weapons', and I figure if I can't get them at s6 ap2, at I, I'll swing at s8 ap2 and I1)

 

 

Elites:

 

Helbrute  Multimelta Powerfist/Heavy Flamer

 

Helbrute Reaper Assault Cannon Powerfist/Heavy Flamer

 

 

Troops: (I had to upgrade 2 champions, because of WYSIWYG)

 

5 x Khorne Beserkers Champ (Power sword, Power Axe, meltabombs) Rhino (Dirgecaster) Vets

 

5 x Khorne Beserkers Champ (Lightning Claw, Meltabombs) Rhino (Dirgecaster) Vets

 

5 x Khorne Beserkers Champ (Meltabombs) vets

 

5 x Khorne Beserkers Champ (Meltabombs) vets

 

5 x Khorne Beserkers Champ (Meltabombs) vets

 

(I don't have enough rhinos to totally mech up-I can go fully mechanized with my Tau and didn't want to go that direction with my CSMs, though I may end up getting more, maybe with Havok launchers in the future)

 

Fast:

 

4 x CSM Bikes Mark of Khorne, Champion (Power fist) Icon of Wrath, 2 x Melta Guns vets (Lord goes here) 

 

2 x Spawn Mark of Nurgle

 

Heavy Support

 

2x Obliterators, Mark of Nurgle

 

Right at 1500 points (1496 to be exact)

The Helbrutes I think would be better replaced by Maulerfiends, or more Tanks.  I'd like a larger unit of spawn for better holding purposes.  I have a defiler...but for the cost of what I'd upgrade it to, I could get 2 helbrutes, so I went with the helbrutes.  They were Okay close support for my Foot Zerkers.

 

I didn't mind my champions against actual squads of guys-that's completely fine and okay.  It's only against the wraithlord-which is of greater toughness, but i4 compared to the avatar which is t6 but I10-there the champions helped hold the line and hold the avatar until the AxeLord got there.  I hadn't intended it to go down that way-but them's the breaks of a dice game.

 

In the end we each had one unit left on the table:  Him his avatar (with 1 wound) and with me, my Lightning Claw beserker squad-who killed the Clock Tower camping snipers.  I like to imagine they jumped up, grabbed them and "taught them to fly".  I had a 2 man unit of zerkers hold up the avatar because my choices were hold up the avatar, or try and run them to his deployment zone-which I didn't think would be prudent with 1 turn left, and over 12 inches of table with lots of terrain between my two zerkers and his deployment, so they were sacrificed on the altar of Khorne.

 

I lost by one point.

[Scribe]

I'm intrigued by this MSU Berzeker concept, obviously giving up on things like First Blood and Kill points, but line breaker and scoring units wont be an issue. Hmm, that many troops at 1500, interesting idea for sure.