Abaddon vs Sigismund

[Aegnor]

IF Abbadon was to kill Sigismund, I'm not sure how that's pooping on him or the Black Templars or the Imperial Fists.

 

He (Sigismund) is clearly in the very top draw of fighters amongst the Legions. He survives the Heresy, but all the BT fluff we've seen to date suggests that he isn't somehow miraculously still alive in 40k. So he has to die at some point.

 

Given that, what is a fitting death for such a figure? Old age in bed? :cuss that. Sigismund is all about fighting for the Emperor wherever you're most needed. Buried under a ton of dead green skins? I don't think so. Eldar treachery? Would be disappointing. Stomped on by a Chaos Titan? Rather ignominious.

 

Really, given the character's theme, it should be in single combat against the greatest champion Chaos has to offer. From a hand to hand point of view, that's either a daemon-primarch, Khârn, Lucius or Abbadon.

 

A match vs Angron or Fulgrim would be a one sided massacre, even if we say Sigismund actually is the most deadly Astartes of them all. I have the feeling we're going to see Khârn vs Sigismund at the Siege of Terra. Dying to Lucius would be disappointing frankly.

 

Abbadon as Warmaster, maybe with Drach'yen already, really is pretty much the ultimate opponent for Sigismund. If he's going to die, it should against the ultimate champion of Chaos. Anything less would be an anti-climax, given we know he can't actually kill Abbadon for good.

 

Edit: ninja'd by rrRaptor

[Marshal Rohr]

Abaddon killing Sigismund on his path to 40K antichrist is appropriate I think. If Sigismund was undefeated the day the traitors were scattered, Abaddon killing him is the perfect way to paint a picture of Chaos ascending.

[Captain Idaho]

Space Marines are fearless against all bar Primarch combat except once as I recall - Nicodemus scared an officer of Abaddon into disarmament. So obviously he's the winner!

 

;)

 

But on topic, I think Abaddon needs a big victory since he's got such a big rep to live up to.

[Marshal Rohr]

I guess everybody hoping A D B would write more about Black Templars will learn to be careful what they wish for.

[Emperor's Furor]

*snip

And? Sounds like how Chaos is traditionally written most of the time. That's part of 40K: You will be disappointed. Whether it be the Ultramarines sergeant who became a champion of Nurgle, the big moonshiner who got cut to ribbons to the Night Lord who was killed by the very brother he tried to protect. That is 40K. If it is written for a faction not your own, do not expect your faction to be the glorious victors who effortlessly beat back the darkness. Even when the Blood Angels beat back the Chaos fleet in Soul Hunter, they lost an honored Dreadnought and were seen killing children. In Ben King's Space Wolves novels, Night Lords were slaughtered by only a handful of Wolves. In Graham McNeill's short story, the Night Lords were beaten by the Ultramarines. World Eaters were beaten by Imperial Guardsmen. A Chaos Marine suffered death by pincushion when a group of primitives killed him with blowpipes.

But even as a Chaos fan, I still don't think BL is pooping over Chaos. But that is just my opinion.

*snip

Dude that's exactly the reason why I love Imperial Fists. They bleed, they die, yet they endure. They are not fancy, friendly heroes wrapped in battle honours, they are stubborn bloodied soldiers fighting in mud. They are always in the enemy's way and stay there. That's why enemy needs to get rid of them so he descend on them in numbers. Yet they fight. Despite being severely outnumbered and outgunned they fight to the last breath, cursing the enemy, bleeding, and dying for Imperium.

Concerning Sigis fate, we always knew he died at some point. Somehow I got the feeling he didn't die of old age while gardening during his retirement, but his death has rather violent. I would MUCH appreciated if he would die by the hand of what Chaos has to offer rather than by hand of some random chaos/ork warlord who then carved his ... you know the drill.

EDIT: And HH is an entire different beast. In the start of Heresy they were literally only thing that stood between Horus and Terra. One legion against several others, needing to spread out through entire galaxy to defend it. Of course they are going to encounter enemy a lot. With numbers being not exactly on their side.

It's more that for every loses those other chapters/legions have, for example night lords and blood angels, they have something equally as successful occurring for them. For every tragic loss the Blood Angels have, they have an awe inspiring victory or a complete desolation of their enemy, same goes for Night Lords, Space Wolves, Ultramarines etc. Imperial Fists don't, they just get stories where their defences are pushed to the extreme and over 50% of the time they fail, they don't get a counter amazing victory, even the story with Lysander has now been distorted from a hero who escaped an iron warriors planet only to return and reap vengeance to something a lot more less heroic.

I hope you get what I mean, I understand there has to be losses, I feel that Imperial Fists receive more than their fair share of losses with none of the benefits of having their own overwhelming victories, but well we've been through this before in other threads, so there's no need to continue, I understand your points I just personally wish they'd actually be on the front foot for once rather than always on the brink of losing.

[Marshal Rohr]

Am I the only one not pissed about this? I think it's great. I'm hoping we get an A D B duel dialogue about the black Templars inheriting the great crusade and Abaddon shoving his sword through his heart while telling him the Great Crusade is over.

[Kol Saresk]

They had a whole novel where a group of scouts fought off an entire horde of Slaaneshi cultists. I think that counts as overwhelming.

[Marshal Rohr]

They are also the only chapter to fight on roller skates.

[Vesper]

 

Sigismund could lose, but he also CANNOT die (if this was during HH) because he leads the Black Templars later on.

Yeah.

As Lucius, the guy who was undefeated for the whole Heresy until his defeat to an EC Lord Commander, what he thinks about that.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Vesper, on 25 Feb 2014 - 01:15, said:

Quote

Sigismund could lose, but he also CANNOT die (if this was during HH) because he leads the Black Templars later on.

Yeah.

As Lucius, the guy who was undefeated for the whole Heresy until his defeat to an EC Lord Commander, what he thinks about that.

Isn't Lucius' death at the hands of the EC Lord Commander AFTER the Horus Heresy (actually I'm not sure so enlighten me....), the reason that Sigismund CANNOT die during the HH, is that there's no way a loyalist Space Marine could come back to life until the so called End of Days, which is well, the End of Days.... unlike Chaos Champions who apparently just get pooped back out of the warp after getting stabbed/hammered/mutilated/road killed/impaled/etc. etc.

IMO, it would be great instead to see Sigismund's death be at the hands of the Chosen Champion of Chaos, aboard the Despoiler class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege trying to defend Rogal Dorn, while Dorn tries to self-destruct the ships core taking down Abaddon's greatest lieutenants, Abaddon, and himself before it makes a translation directly to Terra...

But you know Chaos... Abaddon somehow survives, Sigismund dies, the ship is destroyed, and the only thing found of Dorn is his hand.... but hey I'm no novelist... I don't know how things turn out

[Kol Saresk]

Vesper's point is that as of Angel Exterminatus, that death is no longer Lucius' first death.

[Vesper]

Absolutely.

Plus, the Sword of Sacrilege is still sailing, as far as I know.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah only the imperial fists boarded the sword of sacrilege, and that's a key point of the story, no one else was around to do it in time. The fleet was small too, only like four codex companies iirc. Also it wasn't confirmed as one of Abaddons Crusade. Just a black crusade, also iirc.

[A D-B]

Am I the only one not pissed about this? I think it's great. I'm hoping we get an A D B duel dialogue about the black Templars inheriting the great crusade and Abaddon shoving his sword through his heart while telling him the Great Crusade is over.

 

That would be the obvious motif to play out between them, wouldn't it? (Especially with how much I made the Eternal Crusade a keystone of how my Templars think, in Helsreach). And yet, sometimes the obvious choice is the awesomest.

 

Caps Lock joking from earlier aside, no, I think there's only one voice in this thread "pissed about this", and in fairness to WoT, he's setting up an unsustainable position quoting Black Library's joke about how a previous employee didn't like the Imperial Fists. (That previous employee was a short story editor, by the by, and he "didn't like them" to the extent that he didn't like yellow very much, and it became a joke.) It's times like this that you could kinda cringe about the fan reaction over everything, because there'll always be one or two where the answer's unacceptable no matter what it is. I mean, Sigismund has to die at some point. That's not being a meanie to the Fists or the Templars. If Chaos - the faction that routinely loses even in books about Chaos Marines - are somehow unfair for landing the killing blow, let alone that it's delivered by the actual Antichrist of the 40K setting, which is about as glorious a death as a Space Marine can get... Or if the fact Sigismund dies at all is untenable, I mean... what hope do you have?

 

It comes down to trusting in your knowledge of the setting and telling what you think is a good story. Did Homer hate Hector because Hector dies and Troy loses in the Iliad? You can take this stuff way too far. 

 

In this case, at the last BL Weekender on one of the Heresy panels, it was asked what happened in the First Black Crusade, seeing as Cadia wasn't reinforced by that point. And I replied that I liked the idea of the Imperium victorious after the Scouring, committing the Nine Legions to the role of myth and legend while the Legions were trapped in the purgatory of the Eye. So when the newly formed Black Legion returns at the vanguard of the Armies of the Damned, they're almost entirely unopposed. Almost. "There's this ancient knight-king, leaning on his sword as he sits on his throne, a thousand years old but too proud and dutiful to die. And when the Black Legion break out of the Eye, the Black Templars are waiting for them." Hugely outnumbered: the only ones that insisted the Imperium's sins would come home to roost, the only Chapter to face humanity's sins coming back to haunt the species. As the Crusade unfolds, a lot of the Imperium joins in. But Sigismund was there first, waiting for Abaddon. The one duel he never got to fight on Terra.

 

And then I turned to my editor and said "That'll be Book Two."

 

But maybe WoT will catch a break and it'll all change. I like the idea and there's no finer swansong for one of the greatest Imperial heroes, though I change my mind as much as anyone else and may decide he gets food poisoning or something.

[Marshal Rohr]

Am I the only one not pissed about this? I think it's great. I'm hoping we get an A D B duel dialogue about the black Templars inheriting the great crusade and Abaddon shoving his sword through his heart while telling him the Great Crusade is over.

That would be the obvious motif to play out between them, wouldn't it? (Especially with how much I made the Eternal Crusade a keystone of how my Templars think, in Helsreach). And yet, sometimes the obvious choice is the awesomest.

Caps Lock joking from earlier aside, no, I think there's only one voice in this thread "pissed about this", and in fairness to WoT, he's setting up an unsustainable position quoting Black Library's joke about how a previous employee didn't like the Imperial Fists. (That previous employee was a short story editor, by the by, and he "didn't like them" to the extent that he didn't like yellow very much, and it became a joke.) It's times like this that you could kinda cringe about the fan reaction over everything, because there'll always be one or two where the answer's unacceptable no matter what it is. I mean, Sigismund has to die at some point. That's not being a meanie to the Fists or the Templars. If Chaos - the faction that routinely loses even in books about Chaos Marines - are somehow unfair for landing the killing blow, let alone that it's delivered by the actual Antichrist of the 40K setting, which is about as glorious a death as a Space Marine can get... Or if the fact Sigismund dies at all is untenable, I mean... what hope do you have?

It comes down to trusting in your knowledge of the setting and telling what you think is a good story. Did Homer hate Hector because Hector dies and Troy loses in the Iliad? You can take this stuff way too far.

In this case, at the last BL Weekender on one of the Heresy panels, it was asked what happened in the First Black Crusade, seeing as Cadia wasn't reinforced by that point. And I replied that I liked the idea of the Imperium victorious after the Scouring, committing the Nine Legions to the role of myth and legend while the Legions were trapped in the purgatory of the Eye. So when the newly formed Black Legion returns at the vanguard of the Armies of the Damned, they're almost entirely unopposed. Almost. "There's this ancient knight-king, leaning on his sword as he sits on his throne, a thousand years old but too proud and dutiful to die. And when the Black Legion break out of the Eye, the Black Templars are waiting for them." Hugely outnumbered: the only ones that insisted the Imperium's sins would come home to roost, the only Chapter to face humanity's sins coming back to haunt the species. As the Crusade unfolds, a lot of the Imperium joins in. But Sigismund was there first, waiting for Abaddon. The one duel he never got to fight on Terra.

And then I turned to my editor and said "That'll be Book Two."

But maybe WoT will catch a break and it'll all change. I like the idea and there's no finer swansong for one of the greatest Imperial heroes, though I change my mind as much as anyone else and may decide he gets food poisoning or something.

After reading the first time

After reading the second time

http://replygif.net/237

Do this, and I swear by all that is Sacred, I shall buy multiple copies and hand them out like Gideon Bibles.

[Perrin]

 

Am I the only one not pissed about this? I think it's great. I'm hoping we get an A D B duel dialogue about the black Templars inheriting the great crusade and Abaddon shoving his sword through his heart while telling him the Great Crusade is over.

 

That would be the obvious motif to play out between them, wouldn't it? (Especially with how much I made the Eternal Crusade a keystone of how my Templars think, in Helsreach). And yet, sometimes the obvious choice is the awesomest.

 

Caps Lock joking from earlier aside, no, I think there's only one voice in this thread "pissed about this", and in fairness to WoT, he's setting up an unsustainable position quoting Black Library's joke about how a previous employee didn't like the Imperial Fists. (That previous employee was a short story editor, by the by, and he "didn't like them" to the extent that he didn't like yellow very much, and it became a joke.) It's times like this that you could kinda cringe about the fan reaction over everything, because there'll always be one or two where the answer's unacceptable no matter what it is. I mean, Sigismund has to die at some point. That's not being a meanie to the Fists or the Templars. If Chaos - the faction that routinely loses even in books about Chaos Marines - are somehow unfair for landing the killing blow, let alone that it's delivered by the actual Antichrist of the 40K setting, which is about as glorious a death as a Space Marine can get... Or if the fact Sigismund dies at all is untenable, I mean... what hope do you have?

 

It comes down to trusting in your knowledge of the setting and telling what you think is a good story. Did Homer hate Hector because Hector dies and Troy loses in the Iliad? You can take this stuff way too far. 

 

In this case, at the last BL Weekender on one of the Heresy panels, it was asked what happened in the First Black Crusade, seeing as Cadia wasn't reinforced by that point. And I replied that I liked the idea of the Imperium victorious after the Scouring, committing the Nine Legions to the role of myth and legend while the Legions were trapped in the purgatory of the Eye. So when the newly formed Black Legion returns at the vanguard of the Armies of the Damned, they're almost entirely unopposed. Almost. "There's this ancient knight-king, leaning on his sword as he sits on his throne, a thousand years old but too proud and dutiful to die. And when the Black Legion break out of the Eye, the Black Templars are waiting for them." Hugely outnumbered: the only ones that insisted the Imperium's sins would come home to roost, the only Chapter to face humanity's sins coming back to haunt the species. As the Crusade unfolds, a lot of the Imperium joins in. But Sigismund was there first, waiting for Abaddon. The one duel he never got to fight on Terra.

 

And then I turned to my editor and said "That'll be Book Two."

 

But maybe WoT will catch a break and it'll all change. I like the idea and there's no finer swansong for one of the greatest Imperial heroes, though I change my mind as much as anyone else and may decide he gets food poisoning or something.

 

Epic.

[Marshal Rohr]

If it isn't too much to ask, please write some bits about them using old legion equipment so I can paint Black Templars again and use the HH Betrayal list. 

[Emperor's Furor]

Just forget about what I said, I'm not in the right frame of mind atm, things never change, both in life and apparently in 40k, so whats the point to it.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

 

 

 

Am I the only one not pissed about this? I think it's great. I'm hoping we get an A D B duel dialogue about the black Templars inheriting the great crusade and Abaddon shoving his sword through his heart while telling him the Great Crusade is over.

 

That would be the obvious motif to play out between them, wouldn't it? (Especially with how much I made the Eternal Crusade a keystone of how my Templars think, in Helsreach). And yet, sometimes the obvious choice is the awesomest.

 

Caps Lock joking from earlier aside, no, I think there's only one voice in this thread "pissed about this", and in fairness to WoT, he's setting up an unsustainable position quoting Black Library's joke about how a previous employee didn't like the Imperial Fists. (That previous employee was a short story editor, by the by, and he "didn't like them" to the extent that he didn't like yellow very much, and it became a joke.) It's times like this that you could kinda cringe about the fan reaction over everything, because there'll always be one or two where the answer's unacceptable no matter what it is. I mean, Sigismund has to die at some point. That's not being a meanie to the Fists or the Templars. If Chaos - the faction that routinely loses even in books about Chaos Marines - are somehow unfair for landing the killing blow, let alone that it's delivered by the actual Antichrist of the 40K setting, which is about as glorious a death as a Space Marine can get... Or if the fact Sigismund dies at all is untenable, I mean... what hope do you have?

 

It comes down to trusting in your knowledge of the setting and telling what you think is a good story. Did Homer hate Hector because Hector dies and Troy loses in the Iliad? You can take this stuff way too far. 

 

In this case, at the last BL Weekender on one of the Heresy panels, it was asked what happened in the First Black Crusade, seeing as Cadia wasn't reinforced by that point. And I replied that I liked the idea of the Imperium victorious after the Scouring, committing the Nine Legions to the role of myth and legend while the Legions were trapped in the purgatory of the Eye. So when the newly formed Black Legion returns at the vanguard of the Armies of the Damned, they're almost entirely unopposed. Almost. "There's this ancient knight-king, leaning on his sword as he sits on his throne, a thousand years old but too proud and dutiful to die. And when the Black Legion break out of the Eye, the Black Templars are waiting for them." Hugely outnumbered: the only ones that insisted the Imperium's sins would come home to roost, the only Chapter to face humanity's sins coming back to haunt the species. As the Crusade unfolds, a lot of the Imperium joins in. But Sigismund was there first, waiting for Abaddon. The one duel he never got to fight on Terra.

 

And then I turned to my editor and said "That'll be Book Two."

 

But maybe WoT will catch a break and it'll all change. I like the idea and there's no finer swansong for one of the greatest Imperial heroes, though I change my mind as much as anyone else and may decide he gets food poisoning or something.

 

 

 

 

Sir, if you give Sigismund such an end, (and such an epic lore for the Knights of Dorn) then...

 

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/f1/f1d0340975617a8edfb1c3cc42bb37b16600d6e24dbf632ec00128e80e20770c.jpg

[Marshal_Roujakis]

@WoT: From what I could tell, its not always so bad for the Sons of Dorn, sure the Sentinels of Terra was a bad read... but there were a couple of heroic deaths as well, for example: Capt. Bannon of the Death Watch dying to save an Ultramarine and fighting off what I could only presume to be the brunt of an entire Hive Fleet Tendril. Helsreach was awesome as well, sure a lot of Templar died, but all those deaths became meaningful when Grimaldus rose from the ashes and rubble in the end. Kantor's war in Rynn's world was also a great tale... there were a lot of sacrifices, but weren't the Orks thwarted in the end?

I'm going to stretch it and quote Flashgitz on this one in saying: "Epic accounts of bravery and courage don't write themselves. No need for heroism means no need for Astartes."

So, the IF being always in the back foot doesn't always mean that they never get a bone, it just means that the times are darker than most and heroism is actually harder when all lights start to dim.

But back on topic.... If this is going to be a 2 part series (I'm talking about A D-Bs teaser) then grabbing the 2 parts, and the Omnibus (when it comes out) then the digital edition.... wait... I'm frothing at the mouth already....

[Legatus]

So, both Dorn and Sigismund die during the first Black Crusade?

 

And did the Black Templars arrive after Dorn had been lost, or had the Black Crusade advanced through the Black Templars when Dorn confronted them?

[Marshal Rohr]

Wouldn't that be cool if that was the catalyst to get Dorn involved?

[A D-B]

So, both Dorn and Sigismund die during the first Black Crusade?

 

I thought that's where Dorn went down originally, but nope. Dorn dies aboard the Sword of Sacrilege in "a Black Crusade" between the First and Second (apparently not even one of Abaddon's, according to the Lore Peeps). I've got the actual date in my notes, but I'm on my iPad on my break. Early M32, I think. A couple of hundred years after the First Black Crusade, either way. (This all came from one of the meetings/documents where we had to plan out just what actual dates the primarchs all went down.)

 

Which is annoying, as I had this whole theme idea of it being the moment the Imperium finally has to accept that the tides have changed, and so on. But we had a bunch of talks about this, and Dorn was off the cards for anything like that. Someone wanted to do something with him elsewhere at some point, so it was vetoed by virtue of them asking first. No biggie, though. Ideas are free. Always more where they came from, and I prefer the resonance and symmetry of it being Sigismund. Someone else can tell Dorn's tale.

[Balthamal]

@WoT: From what I could tell, its not always so bad for the Sons of Dorn, sure the Sentinels of Terra was a bad read... but there were a couple of heroic deaths as well, for example: Capt. Bannon of the Death Watch dying to save an Ultramarine and fighting off what I could only presume to be the brunt of an entire Hive Fleet Tendril. Helsreach was awesome as well, sure a lot of Templar died, but all those deaths became meaningful when Grimaldus rose from the ashes and rubble in the end. Kantor's war in Rynn's world was also a great tale... there were a lot of sacrifices, but weren't the Orks thwarted in the end?

I'm going to stretch it and quote Flashgitz on this one in saying: "Epic accounts of bravery and courage don't write themselves. No need for heroism means no need for Astartes."

So, the IF being always in the back foot doesn't always mean that they never get a bone, it just means that the times are darker than most and heroism is actually harder when all lights start to dim.

But back on topic.... If this is going to be a 2 part series (I'm talking about A D-Bs teaser) then grabbing the 2 parts, and the Omnibus (when it comes out) then the digital edition.... wait... I'm frothing at the mouth already....

To follow on with that little point about the IFs even further, maybe the reason they appear to get owned on such a frequent basis is because they are ALWAYS there, right in the thick of it, putting themselves on the line, never resting. They've taken batterings and beatings and STILL don't hesitate to line up and stare down the armies of the damned because their heroism isn't rooted in flashy glory like the Ultramarines and Space Wolves nor the struggle against themselves like the Blood Angels, Raven Guard or Dark Angels, it's because their devotion to their duty is so overpowering and their refusal to abandon it, regardless of the consequences, so woven into their fabric that if they weren't they, guns loaded, blade's raised killing the enemies of man and being killed by them in turn, they wouldn't be Imperial Fists

[Cactus]

Anybody who's really craving some Imperial Fists victories could do a lot worse than read Ian Watson's Space Marine. Fans of the Blood Drinkers might not be quite so pleased.