Abaddon vs Sigismund

[Cerbero666]

 

So, both Dorn and Sigismund die during the first Black Crusade?

 

I thought that's where Dorn went down originally, but nope. Dorn dies aboard the Sword of Sacrilege in "a Black Crusade" between the First and Second (apparently not even one of Abaddon's, according to the Lore Peeps). I've got the actual date in my notes, but I'm on my iPad on my break. Early M32, I think. A couple of hundred years after the First Black Crusade, either way. (This all came from one of the meetings/documents where we had to plan out just what actual dates the primarchs all went down.)

 

Which is annoying, as I had this whole theme idea of it being the moment the Imperium finally has to accept that the tides have changed, and so on. But we had a bunch of talks about this, and Dorn was off the cards for anything like that. Someone wanted to do something with him elsewhere at some point, so it was vetoed by virtue of them asking first. No biggie, though. Ideas are free. Always more where they came from, and I prefer the resonance and symmetry of it being Sigismund. Someone else can tell Dorn's tale.

 

So Dorn's death is confirmed at last? He actually died aboard the Sword of Sacrilege or just disappeared except for his hand? I've always heard the two versions and never truly know wich one is canon. 

 

I like the stuff you brought in about Sigismund and his last stand against Abaddon. I can see him doing that, it isn't off his character and would be an honourable death and epic way to go. Yet I rather imagine him losing in an unfair combat against Abaddon and some of his bodyguards all alone than fighting a true contest against the Warmaster. I don't know why but I wouldn't expect Abaddon fighting without some backup, It would be too prideful and stupid given that he's the only one who could reunite the traitors, and he knows it. Dying fighting Sigismund is a risk that he wouldn't take, at least in my opinion from how I see Abaddon right now. Maybe after the new novel I will think differently. 

[A D-B]

 

 

So, both Dorn and Sigismund die during the first Black Crusade?

 

I thought that's where Dorn went down originally, but nope. Dorn dies aboard the Sword of Sacrilege in "a Black Crusade" between the First and Second (apparently not even one of Abaddon's, according to the Lore Peeps). I've got the actual date in my notes, but I'm on my iPad on my break. Early M32, I think. A couple of hundred years after the First Black Crusade, either way. (This all came from one of the meetings/documents where we had to plan out just what actual dates the primarchs all went down.)

 

Which is annoying, as I had this whole theme idea of it being the moment the Imperium finally has to accept that the tides have changed, and so on. But we had a bunch of talks about this, and Dorn was off the cards for anything like that. Someone wanted to do something with him elsewhere at some point, so it was vetoed by virtue of them asking first. No biggie, though. Ideas are free. Always more where they came from, and I prefer the resonance and symmetry of it being Sigismund. Someone else can tell Dorn's tale.

 

So Dorn's death is confirmed at last? He actually died aboard the Sword of Sacrilege or just disappeared except for his hand? I've always heard the two versions and never truly know wich one is canon. 

 

Neither yet, I guess. That meeting was almost two years ago, and stuff changes all the time when there's no set source yet. We laid out all the lore we could find, and there was precious little to go by on Dorn's score. 

 

But I can admit the talks took place and so on, as it was categorically mentioned by one of the other guys at a signing that Dorn was listed as dying then and there. So I know I'm not spilling out any spoilers.

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful, dude. Time will eventually tell, if that's any consolation.

[Legatus]

 

I thought that's where Dorn went down originally, but nope. Dorn dies aboard the Sword of Sacrilege in "a Black Crusade" between the First and Second (apparently not even one of Abaddon's, according to the Lore Peeps).

 

True, the Index Astartes (IF) dies not specify that it is the "First Black Crusade". Though it does say that said Black Crusade occurred "soon after the disappearance fo Corax", which according to the Raven Guard article happened immediately (one year) after the Second Founding. Though that is just from the two Index Astartes articles (IF and RG). Off the top of my head I am not sure if other sources describe things differently.

 

 

 

To follow on with that little point about the IFs even further, maybe the reason they appear to get owned on such a frequent basis is because they are ALWAYS there, right in the thick of it, putting themselves on the line, never resting. They've taken batterings and beatings and STILL don't hesitate to line up and stare down the armies of the damned because their heroism isn't rooted in flashy glory like the Ultramarines

 

Eh. The Ultramarines may have a long list of successes in the Codex Space Marines, but as far as Black Library coverage is concerned, the Ultramarines are not exactly reaping the glory. Their Horus Heresy showing has been desasterous so far*, but then of course I am still waiting for the Imperium to strike back, which should not only finally give us an Ultramarines victory, but a decent showing of the Imperial Fists as well. In 40K novels, I don't remember too many Ultramarine successes either. The Alpha Legion dismember their successors one Chapter at a time (needing only a single Alpha Legionnaire to do so), and the Iron Warriors invade their realm, destroying their planets, snatching their people up, all by cleverly exploiting their adherance to the Codex Astartes. (Thanks again, Graham Tyger). I think that's what the Alpha Legion guy was doing as well.

 

 

*As in, the retcon of the Battle for Calth, plus loads of new defeats among the worlds of Ultramar at the hands of the Lorgar/Angron tag team. There were some nice bits of individual Ultramarine prowess throughout the series. Although in most cases that occurrs shortly before the individual's demise...

[Wade Garrett]

The Iron Warriors...do you mean Honsou & M'Kar getting their army slaughtered to the last man at Calth, with M'Kar earning a True Death and Honsou only escaping by hiding in a barrel of sewage?

 

Truly, only Dark Apostle Marduk's great victory at Boros eclipses this triumph of the Ruinous Powers.

[Cerbero666]

 

 

 

So, both Dorn and Sigismund die during the first Black Crusade?

 

I thought that's where Dorn went down originally, but nope. Dorn dies aboard the Sword of Sacrilege in "a Black Crusade" between the First and Second (apparently not even one of Abaddon's, according to the Lore Peeps). I've got the actual date in my notes, but I'm on my iPad on my break. Early M32, I think. A couple of hundred years after the First Black Crusade, either way. (This all came from one of the meetings/documents where we had to plan out just what actual dates the primarchs all went down.)

 

Which is annoying, as I had this whole theme idea of it being the moment the Imperium finally has to accept that the tides have changed, and so on. But we had a bunch of talks about this, and Dorn was off the cards for anything like that. Someone wanted to do something with him elsewhere at some point, so it was vetoed by virtue of them asking first. No biggie, though. Ideas are free. Always more where they came from, and I prefer the resonance and symmetry of it being Sigismund. Someone else can tell Dorn's tale.

 

So Dorn's death is confirmed at last? He actually died aboard the Sword of Sacrilege or just disappeared except for his hand? I've always heard the two versions and never truly know wich one is canon. 

 

Neither yet, I guess. That meeting was almost two years ago, and stuff changes all the time when there's no set source yet. We laid out all the lore we could find, and there was precious little to go by on Dorn's score. 

 

But I can admit the talks took place and so on, as it was categorically mentioned by one of the other guys at a signing that Dorn was listed as dying then and there. So I know I'm not spilling out any spoilers.

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful, dude. Time will eventually tell, if that's any consolation.

 

Don't worry, mistery is a reward in itself, thanks for answering!

[Legatus]

 

The Iron Warriors...do you mean Honsou & M'Kar getting their army slaughtered to the last man at Calth, with M'Kar earning a True Death and Honsou only escaping by hiding in a barrel of sewage?

 

I have no idea what the force dispositions were, but from what I heard, two worlds (25%) of Ultramar were destroyed. I would consider that a big loss, and not exactly one of the Ultramarines' great military successes. Being attacked at your home turf and surviving under heavy losses is not exactly spectacular, unless it is an extremely overpowered force. An entire hive fleet would be such an example. How many Iron Warriors were there attacking Ultramar? several Chapters worth? Or just a few companies worth?

[helterskelter]

Can we not just have Abaddon, struck down by a curse of the monologue, in 40k, about to smite somebody important, THEN, a sound, a revving sound, abby cool starts dribbling black blood, looks down to see a chained weapon protruding from his chest.

As he falls he sees his assailant.

A figure in midnight clad.

The weapon ripped from the falling abby cool.

a metal spike taps the deck.

"I always hated you, Ezekyle" and Sevatar spat on abbadons corpse.

 

no? What do you mean no?

[Karthak]

It's true that Sigismund will buy the farm someday, but to me it feels like he has to take his killer with him. Don't know why, but anything else just feels...wrong.

[Legatus]

He could die of old age...

[Marshal Rohr]

A D B, just said, not one one page ago, he will be 1000 something years old. Take that Dante!

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I vote 'Warmaster: Black on Black Crusade' to be book two's title. 

[Legatus]

Abnett's Marines are functionally immortal. Maybe A D-B's are too?

[A D-B]

Abnett's Marines are functionally immortal. Maybe A D-B's are too?

 

Nyet.

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe the old fluff where they die of old age just wasn't HEROIC enough?

 

 

 

 

But really, when the question 'how long do marines live?' is asked, the best answer is always 'long enough to kick ass'.

[A D-B]

Maybe the old fluff where they die of old age just wasn't HEROIC enough?

 

 

 

 

But really, when the question 'how long do marines live?' is asked, the best answer is always 'long enough to kick ass'.

 

It's important for lifelong warriors from warlike cultures to die on their feet, blades in their hands, doing their duty. Even in fights they may not have a chance to win. (Though in Sigismund's case, he always believes he has a chance to win, because he does.) Like in myths, legends, and other awesomeness from historical fiction. I mean, he'd be an "ancient knight-king" in the description. He's not doing push-ups at the Cadian Gate, keeping his cardio going while he waits for Abaddon.

 

But joking aside, a great Marine hero living a long time is hardly unprecedented or lorebreaking. Dante's the oldest living Marine... from a much-changed (and noted in several sources as inferior) genetic process, 9,000 years after these events take place. It's not really comparable.

[Perrin]

The Iron Warriors...do you mean Honsou & M'Kar getting their army slaughtered to the last man at Calth, with M'Kar earning a True Death and Honsou only escaping by hiding in a barrel of sewage?

I have no idea what the force dispositions were, but from what I heard, two worlds (25%) of Ultramar were destroyed. I would consider that a big loss, and not exactly one of the Ultramarines' great military successes. Being attacked at your home turf and surviving under heavy losses is not exactly spectacular, unless it is an extremely overpowered force. An entire hive fleet would be such an example. How many Iron Warriors were there attacking Ultramar? several Chapters worth? Or just a few companies worth?

Honsou had a Daemon Prince, a fleet given to him by Huron Blackheart and a force of 17,000. The core of the army was made up of the remains of Honsou's Grand Company but it isn't stated in exact numbers. The rest is made up of various xenos mercenaries, chaos cultists, Dark Mechanicum, corsairs, several bands of traitor marines including the Claws of Lorek, Skulltakers, Apostles of Mithras and the Death Shadows.

They also had at least three traitor Space Wolves, and we all know Space Wolves count as at least 100 normal marines each

I don't think the Ultramarines full out lost any planets. One planet was wiped clean (population wise), and a few others suffered the same kind of damage that you'd expect any planet being attacked by a fleet of space ships to suffer.

A total of 397 Ultramarines were lost.

[Karthak]

 

Maybe the old fluff where they die of old age just wasn't HEROIC enough?

 

 

 

 

But really, when the question 'how long do marines live?' is asked, the best answer is always 'long enough to kick ass'.

 

It's important for lifelong warriors from warlike cultures to die on their feet, blades in their hands, doing their duty. Even in fights they may not have a chance to win. 

Honestly, that's always seemed a little weird to me. Isn't it even more badass for some guy who's jumped into fights his entire life to die of old age, i.e. in all his years, not a single foe could defeat him?

[A D-B]

 

 

Maybe the old fluff where they die of old age just wasn't HEROIC enough?

 

 

 

 

But really, when the question 'how long do marines live?' is asked, the best answer is always 'long enough to kick ass'.

 

It's important for lifelong warriors from warlike cultures to die on their feet, blades in their hands, doing their duty. Even in fights they may not have a chance to win. 

Honestly, that's always seemed a little weird to me. Isn't it even more badass for some guy who's jumped into fights his entire life to die of old age, i.e. in all his years, not a single foe could defeat him?

 

Well, you and I aren't from warrior cultures. Ask the Vikings, Celts, Saxons, Spartans, et al. It was a pretty big deal to them in a lot of historical fiction, and Space Marine mindsets are closer to those than 21st Century logic. Sometimes it was necessary to reach the afterlife, but not always.

 

(Joking aside, yes, I agree. But still.)

[Kol Saresk]

To us, maybe. I personally don't want to live over fifty. Too many health issues to look forward, regardless of how healthy I do or do not live. To the guy who spent his life in battle, not so much. More than a few warrior cultures would see the way Dorn died, as the perfect death. You died in battle. Not only that, but you killed anyone who could have beat you and took them to the grave as well. To them, dying of old age was nothing. It was a common death. Anybody could die of old age. And so dying of old age wouldn't get you into Valhalla(insert other "heaven" that involves dying in battle to get into). It had to be a warrior's death, a death in battle, or caused by battle. Not, "Will you please change my dia-Unnnnh!" *BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP*

[Blindhamster]

in some of the mentioned cultures when they got too old they'd go off alone and try and find a warriors death that way if they'd somehow survived all their battles in younger years, other cultures would just abandon people that got that old.

[Xenith]

It's important for lifelong warriors from warlike cultures to die on their feet, blades in their hands, doing their duty. Even in fights they may not have a chance to win.

Why am I getting flashes of Beowulf, being tasked to slay the daemon, failing, sitting on the throne, awaiting the day his mistake comes home. Taking up arms one last time to right his wrong.

 

Just don't let them get jiggy.

[A D-B]

in some of the mentioned cultures when they got too old they'd go off alone and try and find a warriors death that way if they'd somehow survived all their battles in younger years...

 

Like Corax and Russ. Supposedly.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

in some of the mentioned cultures when they got too old they'd go off alone and try and find a warriors death that way if they'd somehow survived all their battles in younger years...

 

Like Corax and Russ. Supposedly.

 

in some of the mentioned cultures when they got too old they'd go off alone and try and find a warriors death that way if they'd somehow survived all their battles in younger years...

 

Like Corax and Russ. Supposedly.

You guys heard it here first. A D B has killed Sigismund, Russ, and Corax. All at the hands of Abaddon.

[Legatus]

 

But joking aside, a great Marine hero living a long time is hardly unprecedented or lorebreaking. Dante's the oldest living Marine... from a much-changed (and noted in several sources as inferior) genetic process, 9,000 years after these events take place. It's not really comparable.

 

As allways, Blood Angels don't count, since their "gene-curse" greatly increases their life span. Logan Grimnar is considered super old at 700 years, and as quite unusual.

 

Plus, if we are talking "First Captain" Sigismund, then he would likely already have been about 200 years at the end of the Heresy. "Brother" Sigismund could have been much younger at that time. (Is there an age given for the "First Captain"? I have not read the HH novels...)

[Reinholt]

A D-B is nothing more than a fountain of lies, covering for the sins of the Imperium and painting the portrait of a false hero.

 

Chaos knows the truth. Slaanesh knows the truth. Sigismund delved too deep into self-harm, the curse of the Imperial Fists, and died just like David Carradine: auto-erotic asphysixation. After all, the only person who could kill Sigismund... was Sigismund.

[Conn Eremon]

Kol_Saresk, on 24 Feb 2014 - 12:37, said:

Not, "Will you please change my dia-Unnnnh!" *BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP*

If only they knew how to fix the Golden Throne . . .

 

RIP God-Emperor