Raeven Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Maybe the old fluff where they die of old age just wasn't HEROIC enough? But really, when the question 'how long do marines live?' is asked, the best answer is always 'long enough to kick ass'. It's important for lifelong warriors from warlike cultures to die on their feet, blades in their hands, doing their duty. Even in fights they may not have a chance to win. Honestly, that's always seemed a little weird to me. Isn't it even more badass for some guy who's jumped into fights his entire life to die of old age, i.e. in all his years, not a single foe could defeat him? Well, you and I aren't from warrior cultures. Ask the Vikings, Celts, Saxons, Spartans, et al. It was a pretty big deal to them in a lot of historical fiction, and Space Marine mindsets are closer to those than 21st Century logic. Sometimes it was necessary to reach the afterlife, but not always. (Joking aside, yes, I agree. But still.) Speaking of old Vikings trying to join the halls of Valhalla. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I was thinking of that movie too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 After all, the only person who could kill Sigismund... was Sigismund. And now I can't get the image of Tom Berenger as Sigismund out of my head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Does Sigismund go off on his own personal crusade for penance unmentioned possibly? No one ever sees head nor tail of him but get various sightings of a lone warrior, painted black and covered in chains. A wandering warrior lost to the myths...just like some Arthurian knights... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Does Sigismund go off on his own personal crusade for penance unmentioned possibly? No one ever sees head nor tail of him but get various sightings of a lone warrior, painted black and covered in chains. A wandering warrior lost to the myths...just like some Arthurian knights... No. Too happy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 The Iron Warriors...do you mean Honsou & M'Kar getting their army slaughtered to the last man at Calth, with M'Kar earning a True Death and Honsou only escaping by hiding in a barrel of sewage? I have no idea what the force dispositions were, but from what I heard, two worlds (25%) of Ultramar were destroyed. I would consider that a big loss, and not exactly one of the Ultramarines' great military successes. Being attacked at your home turf and surviving under heavy losses is not exactly spectacular, unless it is an extremely overpowered force. An entire hive fleet would be such an example. How many Iron Warriors were there attacking Ultramar? several Chapters worth? Or just a few companies worth? Honsou had a Daemon Prince, a fleet given to him by Huron Blackheart and a force of 17,000. The core of the army was made up of the remains of Honsou's Grand Company but it isn't stated in exact numbers. The rest is made up of various xenos mercenaries, chaos cultists, Dark Mechanicum, corsairs, several bands of traitor marines including the Claws of Lorek, Skulltakers, Apostles of Mithras and the Death Shadows. They also had at least three traitor Space Wolves, and we all know Space Wolves count as at least 100 normal marines each I don't think the Ultramarines full out lost any planets. One planet was wiped clean (population wise), and a few others suffered the same kind of damage that you'd expect any planet being attacked by a fleet of space ships to suffer. A total of 397 Ultramarines were lost. You forgot Brother that the Traitor fleet also fought against the Regiment at Calth and a Mechanicus Consort, there were also elements from the Ravenguard and the Inquisition. It wasn't just Ultramarines vs the Entire Traitorous Horde of Honsou, it was the Ultramarines Chapter and the Justice Friends vs the traitor Honsou and his Legion of Doom :p You have to consider that most of Calgar's 1st Co. died at his command at the hands of Daemons, and were just being routinely saved by Tigurius' Psychic Shield. If it wasn't for Sicarius and Uriel Ventris timely arrival at the end, then the Ultramarines would have a different Chapter Master by now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 *snip *snip *snip The First Company was also isolated on Talassar, by itself, while caught facing the entirety of M'Kar and his entire daemon horde. Meanwhile, Honsou's Grand Company was wiped out at Calth. And then the various other elements were destroyed on the various planets they were attacking. The Pirate Princess, the Heretek, everyone. Oh, and let us not forget that the Ultramarines fleet destroyed a daemonically possessed Ramilies Star Fort. Something that shouldn't have been possible with a Codex-adherent fleet. So yeah, no glory. No extraordinary feats of strength. Just completely destroying an entire horde of Traitors. And only at the cost of less than half the Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Does Sigismund go off on his own personal crusade for penance unmentioned possibly? No one ever sees head nor tail of him but get various sightings of a lone warrior, painted black and covered in chains. A wandering warrior lost to the myths...just like some Arthurian knights... No true knight would abandon the brothers he swore to stand by and the kingdom he vowed to guard. That sort of shiftlessness is the preserve of ninjas and Vikings.:p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I have this mental image of the Black Legion coming out of their nebula base, with a massive fleet. Sigismund sitting on his super awesome, but modest, version of the Iron Throne and allowing himself to grin with vindication. Then the Eternal Crusader and the Vengeful Spirit have a super huge space duel that totally eclipses any other capital ship on capital ship engagement since the HH. That would make my day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I have this mental image of the Black Legion coming out of their nebula base, with a massive fleet. Sigismund sitting on his super awesome, but modest, version of the Iron Throne and allowing himself to grin with vindication. Then the Eternal Crusader and the Vengeful Spirit have a super huge space duel that totally eclipses any other capital ship on capital ship engagement since the HH. That would make my day. It'd make mine, too. And make for a wonderful first half of a novel. "You said breaking out of here would be easy, Ezekyle." "It... was supposed to be." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I have this mental image of the Black Legion coming out of their nebula base, with a massive fleet. Sigismund sitting on his super awesome, but modest, version of the Iron Throne and allowing himself to grin with vindication. Then the Eternal Crusader and the Vengeful Spirit have a super huge space duel that totally eclipses any other capital ship on capital ship engagement since the HH. That would make my day. It'd make mine, too. And make for a wonderful first half of a novel. "You said breaking out of here would be easy, Ezekyle." "It... was supposed to be." Oh. My. Curze. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I have this mental image of the Black Legion coming out of their nebula base, with a massive fleet. Sigismund sitting on his super awesome, but modest, version of the Iron Throne and allowing himself to grin with vindication. Then the Eternal Crusader and the Vengeful Spirit have a super huge space duel that totally eclipses any other capital ship on capital ship engagement since the HH. That would make my day. It'd make mine, too. And make for a wonderful first half of a novel. "You said breaking out of here would be easy, Ezekyle." "It... was supposed to be." As long as you can fit the World Eaters triiari and Delvarus in a boarding action...then I'm all ears...;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Would the potential ramifications of the Templars standing alone against the Black Legion potentially being the loss of the majority of their fighting strength, giving a potential reason that even though they didn't accept the Codex and were larger than normal, the chapter isn't anything like the Legion? Potentially. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Modest version of the Iron Throne? I tried to picture Sigismund telling some long suffering Chapter serf "I want you to weld all the weapons of my defeated enemies into a big chair...but tastefully. Nothing too gauche, just something to accentuate the command bridge." but my imagination shorted out on me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Modest version of the Iron Throne? I tried to picture Sigismund telling some long suffering Chapter serf "I want you to weld all the weapons of my defeated enemies into a big chair...but tastefully. Nothing too gauche, just something to accentuate the command bridge." but my imagination shorted out on me. Maybe weld them to the backrest, not too many, not to few. Just a couple of the nicer ones. Maybe even shaped like a Maltese cross or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 "You know, choose only like maybe the best 1% of all my trophy weapons to make it up or something. You know? Be very stingy in the selection." "Sire, that's still enough to give everyone on the bridge their own throne." "0.01% then? 0.001%?" "I'll see what I can do, sire." http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2013/07/IronThroneReal-610x885.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 That is definitely cooler than the one in the show. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 "You know, choose only like maybe the best 1% of all my trophy weapons to make it up or something. You know? Be very stingy in the selection." "Sire, that's still enough to give everyone on the bridge their own throne." "0.01% then? 0.001%?" "I'll see what I can do, sire." http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2013/07/IronThroneReal-610x885.jpg .......I know what I want for Christmas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Too bad GRRM took that idea. That throne would've been perfect for Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Too bad GRRM took that idea. That throne would've been perfect for Horus. I'd say Abaddon could continue to expand upon it but by this point it would be large enough to become a ship. That only works with ork technology. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 That is definitely cooler than the one in the show.Aesthetically speaking, I like the show's better. But this one actually looks like a conqueror had his pet dragon burn and melt the swords of his vanquished enemies into a single mass, which he then used as a throne from which he could rule the conquered lands. Which. Is. Awesome. Anywho, now that I'm aware that AD-B's got this fight covered, I am super excited. I admit, I am hoping it ends with a dead Sigismund (which auto-correct keeps wanting to switch to autism or Digimon). Though the idea of the Black Knight single-handedly stopping the Warmaster in his tracks sounds amazing, this is the perfect opportunity for him to meet his end, as well as for Abaddon to prove his strength. Edit: And now I'm picturing Khorne destroying his throne of skulls in a jealous rage, because he had never thought of a throne of blades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 The only way I can visualise that fight ending is with Sigismund finally dead from dozens of mortal wounds and Abaddon on his knees utterly spent thinking to himself "This Talon really sucks, I need me a daemon sword! But not just any daemon sword... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Would the potential ramifications of the Templars standing alone against the Black Legion potentially being the loss of the majority of their fighting strength, giving a potential reason that even though they didn't accept the Codex and were larger than normal, the chapter isn't anything like the Legion? Isn't it more likely that the Black Templars Chapter started out with the standard strength of 1000, seeing as they were founded due to Dorn accepting the decreed reduction in Marine force sizes, and that their current size is the result of ten thousand years of unchecket recruitment where each separate Crusade force is simply taking recruits whenever they want to? I dunno, some people seem to like the odea that Dorn tricked Guilliman and never actually dismantled his Legion, but I for one allways thought that would have been unlike him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Would the potential ramifications of the Templars standing alone against the Black Legion potentially being the loss of the majority of their fighting strength, giving a potential reason that even though they didn't accept the Codex and were larger than normal, the chapter isn't anything like the Legion? Isn't it more likely that the Black Templars Chapter started out with the standard strength of 1000, seeing as they were founded due to Dorn accepting the decreed reduction in Marine force sizes, and that their current size is the result of ten thousand years of unchecket recruitment where each separate Crusade force is simply taking recruits whenever they want to? I dunno, some people seem to like the odea that Dorn tricked Guilliman and never actually dismantled his Legion, but I for one allways thought that would have been unlike him. I'd agree as well. The only thing that might jar with that would be the fluff piece about Dorn calling Gulliman a coward for not defending Terra. Plus Dorn is supposedly totally broken after the Siege. Just another one of those things we'll end up waiting to see but I'm looking forward to seeing how Gulliman goes about trying to push the codex on the remaining Primarchs since out of the only friends he had, 3 are dead and the remaining one is contemptuous of him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3602995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Only friends he had? Citation needed... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287187-abaddon-vs-sigismund/page/5/#findComment-3603096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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