Abaddon vs Sigismund

[RapatoR]

Why do you do this to us? In the names of the black gods why??

 

As a side note, can we take it that those 9 are the Ezekarion?

 

It seems so. Also their number suggests that there will be one from each legion.

[Balthamal]

 

Why do you do this to us? In the names of the black gods why??

 

As a side note, can we take it that those 9 are the Ezekarion?

 

It seems so. Also their number suggests that there will be one from each legion.

 

I'm pretty sure he stated before that one was a Fallen Dark Angel which would rule that out. It's been confirmed Khayon is a Thousand Son and I doubt very much there'll be two characters called Falkus so you have Sons of Horus accounted for too. As for the rest, who knows. I think it would be cool if there were a couple from loyalist Legions, just for kicks. Damn we need this book out already

[Wade Garrett]

If you presume Sevatar didn't throw everything he had at Sigismund in a 30 hour duel of "sweat, SWEARING, and the crash of iron against iron". Then ...well that's just ridiculous .

 

No, what's ridiculous is saying that Sevatar threw "everything he had" at Sigismund in a match under rules that prohibited ungentlemanly conduct like head butting the other guy.

 

Question:

Do you think Delvarus is/was a better fighter than Khârn?

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Abaddon, since he is alive and Sigismund isn't around anymore

Surviving doesn't make you a great warrior brother. Erebus is still alive but only because he run's like a coward and doesn't fight like a man let alone an astartes. 1 vs 1 without much information detailing Abaddon actually fighting i'd say the edge goes to Sigismund. Yes we know Abaddon is a great warrior with lots of laurels and accolades but there's never been anything saying he excels at personal combat. Where as that is Sigismund's specialty. If it was 1st company vs 1st company I think Abaddon but blade to blade I think the Emperors Champion would dance around him in his bulkier armour and cut him to ribbons.

[Balthamal]

 

Abaddon, since he is alive and Sigismund isn't around anymore

Surviving doesn't make you a great warrior brother. Erebus is still alive but only because he run's like a coward and doesn't fight like a man let alone an astartes. 1 vs 1 without much information detailing Abaddon actually fighting i'd say the edge goes to Sigismund. Yes we know Abaddon is a great warrior with lots of laurels and accolades but there's never been anything saying he excels at personal combat. Where as that is Sigismund's specialty. If it was 1st company vs 1st company I think Abaddon but blade to blade I think the Emperors Champion would dance around him in his bulkier armour and cut him to ribbons.

 

There was a little snippet in Galaxy in Flames where Loken is told that Abaddon is one of the greatest warriors the XVI has ever had, but nothing in terms of wider context.

 

The only other thing I can pick up from memory is a passage in Savage Weapons where a Dark Angel opines that only 20 amongst the Legions, including 2 from his own, were better than him with the blade, Abaddon, Sigismund and Jubal Khan were also mentioned in that.

 

I think most of the ambiguity comes from the fact that Abaddon is assumed to be the ultimate badass because he became Warmaster after Horus. Yet we have nothing to back up the fact he is so awesome which, hopefully, the new Black Legion Series will rectify. Sigismund meanwhile has had it in his fluff for god knows how many years that he carved his way through countless champions of chaos at the siege. It's something tangible to measure whereas Abaddon lacks that

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Agreed I don't think we can really say until we know Abaddon's skill set.

[Vesper]

 

but there's never been anything saying he excels at personal combat. Where as that is Sigismund's specialty. If it was 1st company vs 1st company I think Abaddon but blade to blade I think the Emperors Champion would dance around him in his bulkier armour and cut him to ribbons.

I guess Abaddon was rumoured to be the clone of a Primarch (let alone the greatest Primarch) for a reason.

And according to Forge World, Abaddon got deep into the Imperial Palace and was pretty much unstoppable. You'd think imperial champions may have tried to stop him.

We're talking about the guy who survived Ullanor. The guy who wears a Terminator Armor like it's nothing at all, because he's a beast of an Astarte. And that's nothing compared to his strength of will. Built a Legion on his own, won the Legions war forever, became king of literal hell, made Primarchs kneel before him, makes gods serve his purpose and is about to engulf Terra in flames.

That guy is the single most badass of the badasses in a badass-heavy Galaxy of Astartes badasses.

[A D-B]

 

 

Why do you do this to us? In the names of the black gods why??

 

As a side note, can we take it that those 9 are the Ezekarion?

 

It seems so. Also their number suggests that there will be one from each legion.

 

I'm pretty sure he stated before that one was a Fallen Dark Angel which would rule that out. It's been confirmed Khayon is a Thousand Son and I doubt very much there'll be two characters called Falkus so you have Sons of Horus accounted for too. As for the rest, who knows. I think it would be cool if there were a couple from loyalist Legions, just for kicks. Damn we need this book out already

 

They're some of the Ezekarion. The first book is really just the first step - it's a long-running series, so more warriors join the Ezekarion over the course of the novels. They're a cross between Abaddon's highest-ranking warlords, the lords of the Black Legion, his best warriors, his personal squad, and the leaders of individual fleets and armies, depending on who's doing what at which point in time. It's a fluid process. The mark of who is actually one of the Ezekarion is that they're the only warriors who call the Warmaster by his first name, and their words are protected by Legion law: they can't be punished for speaking their minds to Abaddon. Think of Alexander the Great's Companions. Some Companions led his infantry regiments, others were in his personal guard, the Companion Cavalry. All were essentially in his inner circle, no matter their rank.

 

The Talon of Horus is about the first of the Ezekarion coming together in the search for Abaddon - and the destruction of Horus's clone. It's about the journey and events that make them all create the Black Legion, with Abaddon finally choosing to wield the Talon of Horus. The second book will be the newborn Black Legion curbstomping other warbands, and the declaration of the First Black Crusade.

 

Like I said, the Abaddon/Sigismund mention is a throwaway couple of paragraphs in The Talon of Horus. The event itself, if I run with it, will be in the next book, The Black Legion.

[Wade Garrett]

So Abaddon does end up with a Mournival of his own. It's interesting (to me, anyway) how he despises Horus and the old XIV Legion so much, but he still wields his father's Lightning Claw and maintains the old traditions.

[Vesper]

Lheor seems like a nice guy, by the way (and that's a really cool name).

You don't want to anger him, of course, but that's the kind of guy you like to have on your side when the enemy is charging you, I guess.

Telemachon is a master swordsman (if I remember the Black Legion supplement correctly). Can't tell where he comes from, but his rivalry with Khayon must be something really cool.

[A D-B]

So Abaddon does end up with a Mournival of his own. It's interesting (to me, anyway) how he despises Horus and the old XIV Legion so much, but he still wields his father's Lightning Claw and maintains the old traditions.

 

Besides the Talon and the Eye of Horus, I'm not sure what others he keeps. Having an inner circle is something practically everyone does, not unique to the Luna Wolves. The Ezekarion is like a bajillion inner circles from history and fiction. Much closer to the Companions (who were the only Macedonian soldiers permitted to call their king "Alexander" in private) than the Mournival. 

 

EDIT: Abaddon doesn't hate the Sons of Horus in this series, really. He just sees them (fairly accurately) as failures, led by a dupe. The transition between the newborn Black Legion and the old Sons of Horus interests me a lot, too. I'm hoping to show a lot of it in Book 2. Because it's nowhere near as smooth as a repaint job. Most of the Sons of Horus are dead. The Legion's practically extinct. 

[Wade Garrett]

I was thinking more about the "can't be punished for speaking their mind in front of him" part, actually.

 

And I'd disagree that practically everyone keeps some folks around to tell them the way things actually ARE, not the way they want them to be. Toadies and yes men are very much a thing, in militaries as well as civilian organizations.

 

And Abaddon also kept Vengeful Spirit and (according to Index Astartes) the "tip of the spear" style of warmaking.

[A D-B]

I was thinking more about the "can't be punished for speaking their mind in front of him" part, actually.

 

And I'd disagree that practically everyone keeps some folks around to tell them the way things actually ARE, not the way they want them to be. 

 

And Abaddon also kept Vengeful Spirit and (according to Index Astartes) the "tip of the spear" style of warmaking.

 

It's a fantasy and historical fiction staple, but yeah, I getcha. I associate it less with the Mournival because they were so bad at their jobs, and Horus didn't seem to much care what they said even before he went mad. They were a tactic for public display, engineered by Horus who was a cunning political animal.

[Greyall]

@ADB

 

You mentioned a few posts back that Sigismund would stand alone waiting for the traitor Legions to return while the Imperium commited the Founding Loyalists to "myth and legend". I'm wondering what you mean by that.

 

The First Black Crusade seems to have taken place while some loyalist Primarchs still lived, and after the Second Founding, so it should've been a time for Astartes to be "fresh" and battle-ready. Or was it the birthtime of the ponderous, aloof Imperium that is sometimes too arrogant, big and slow for its own good?

[RapatoR]

@ADB

 

You mentioned a few posts back that Sigismund would stand alone waiting for the traitor Legions to return while the Imperium commited the Founding Loyalists to "myth and legend". I'm wondering what you mean by that.

 

The First Black Crusade seems to have taken place while some loyalist Primarchs still lived, and after the Second Founding, so it should've been a time for Astartes to be "fresh" and battle-ready. Or was it the birthtime of the ponderous, aloof Imperium that is sometimes too arrogant, big and slow for its own good?

Well I guess that after crushing your opponent and literally sending him into hell, you don't exactly expect that he will recover from that.

[A D-B]

@ADB

 

You mentioned a few posts back that Sigismund would stand alone waiting for the traitor Legions to return while the Imperium commited the Founding Loyalists to "myth and legend". I'm wondering what you mean by that.

 

The First Black Crusade seems to have taken place while some loyalist Primarchs still lived, and after the Second Founding, so it should've been a time for Astartes to be "fresh" and battle-ready. Or was it the birthtime of the ponderous, aloof Imperium that is sometimes too arrogant, big and slow for its own good?

 

I'm sure they were very ready for all kinds of things, including the odd insignficant Traitor raid that went largely unreported across the insane scale of the wider Imperium. But that doesn't necessarily mean they considered the Nine Legions to be a threat. The Traitors didn't just pop into the Eye and keep popping out to remind everyone they were still around. They sank into Hell - a realm only understood by the very people that fled there, and the Emperor and Malcador, who weren't in any position to explain things - and looked pretty much silent for centuries. The inefficient, baroque, corpse-fuelled Imperium we know and love was a good few centuries old at that point, fighting a squillion wars across the galaxy. The lore's always stated that Cadia wasn't built up as a fortress by then, so the Imperium at large just didn't consider the Traitor Legions' return en masse to be a possibility.

 

 

 

@ADB

 

You mentioned a few posts back that Sigismund would stand alone waiting for the traitor Legions to return while the Imperium commited the Founding Loyalists to "myth and legend". I'm wondering what you mean by that.

 

The First Black Crusade seems to have taken place while some loyalist Primarchs still lived, and after the Second Founding, so it should've been a time for Astartes to be "fresh" and battle-ready. Or was it the birthtime of the ponderous, aloof Imperium that is sometimes too arrogant, big and slow for its own good?

Well I guess that after crushing your opponent and literally sending him into hell, you don't exactly expect that he will recover from that.

 

Yeah.

[Greyall]

I'd think the remaining Primarchs would know better than to just trust their traitor brothers to sink into oblivion (well, they did sink, but "upwards", into the pleasures of daemonhood). But then again Primarchs lost a good deal of their power after the Heresy.

[Balthamal]

Agreed I don't think we can really say until we know Abaddon's skill set.

I think the basis is certainly there: He's the 1st Captain of the pre-eminent Legion in the Imperium. He alone (aside from Horus) walked away from Ullanor and his name is spoken of across the Legions - One of the greatest compliments possible, not just for warriors, is the acknowledgement of your peers, then there is his prowess in terminator armour eclipsing power armour in terms of agility and dexterity.

It will be good to have his obvious ability put out there as it were, it's been shown in one form or another why Sigismund, Sevatar and Khârn are awesome, high time the Warmaster lived up to his billing.

Edit: Just saw Vesper made some of these points as well, apologies

Why do you do this to us? In the names of the black gods why??

As a side note, can we take it that those 9 are the Ezekarion?

It seems so. Also their number suggests that there will be one from each legion.

I'm pretty sure he stated before that one was a Fallen Dark Angel which would rule that out. It's been confirmed Khayon is a Thousand Son and I doubt very much there'll be two characters called Falkus so you have Sons of Horus accounted for too. As for the rest, who knows. I think it would be cool if there were a couple from loyalist Legions, just for kicks. Damn we need this book out already

They're some of the Ezekarion. The first book is really just the first step - it's a long-running series, so more warriors join the Ezekarion over the course of the novels. They're a cross between Abaddon's highest-ranking warlords, the lords of the Black Legion, his best warriors, his personal squad, and the leaders of individual fleets and armies, depending on who's doing what at which point in time. It's a fluid process. The mark of who is actually one of the Ezekarion is that they're the only warriors who call the Warmaster by his first name, and their words are protected by Legion law: they can't be punished for speaking their minds to Abaddon. Think of Alexander the Great's Companions. Some Companions led his infantry regiments, others were in his personal guard, the Companion Cavalry. All were essentially in his inner circle, no matter their rank.

The Talon of Horus is about the first of the Ezekarion coming together in the search for Abaddon - and the destruction of Horus's clone. It's about the journey and events that make them all create the Black Legion, with Abaddon finally choosing to wield the Talon of Horus. The second book will be the newborn Black Legion curbstomping other warbands, and the declaration of the First Black Crusade.

Like I said, the Abaddon/Sigismund mention is a throwaway couple of paragraphs in The Talon of Horus. The event itself, it I run with it, will be in the next book, The Black Legion.

Thanks for expanding on that Aaron. I'm actually quite excited to see the dynamic of them in action even more than the mountains of corpses they'll surely accumulate during the course of The Long War. One of the only criticisms (not even really a criticism more an observation) I had with First Claw was their insularity. They really don't play well with others, although, granted Mercutian (who turned out to be my favourite) and Variel join them through circumstance and other incomprehensible reasons. But by the same token their interactions developed across several levels during the course of the trilogy, and they were after all a remnant of a broken cowardly Legion who always seemed to be on the losing side.

From the short story in the BL advent calender you mentioned that Khayon and Telemachon have frequently tried to kill each other so that adds a further layer again. Not to mention Abaddon actually having to be a trifle diplomatic: he can't purge his Legion of naysayers like Horus.

Can definitely see conversions of these guys in the pipeline at some point but something tells me they'll never be game legal

[marshal seanisi]

Wade I think it's obvious that Sevatar took the match very serious as he was frustrated to the point that he decided to head butt Sigismund.

Having a discussion with someone about combat tactics I sometimes forget that it's hard for people to relate that have never actually experienced combat or combat training on a very serious level.

To think that two of the best warriors the legions have to offer would spar for 30 hours with their respective honor on the line and not do their best is to not understand how the mind of a real warrior operates. When you go against the best, it brings out the best you have.

It won't be much of an argument after we all read the final battle for Terra and they finally shed some light on who Sigismund slays. (especially when he takes out Khârn and Sevatar in the same day )

[fission]

Primarchs at the time were old men speaking of good old time ...

 

Was just thinking Abaddon have done 13 Black Crusade and has never been injured during these crusade....

 

Oh "Pour l'amour du Christ!" (As we said in France) , please ADB don't make Abaddon a perpetual....

 

Or if you made it I want a flashback of Abaddon,Vulkan and Grammaticus , playing poker in a dark room in the Webway , joking about the Imperium/Chaos champion's illusion of being such a bunch of badass...

 

;)

[Cactus]

Slightly off-topic, maybe, but I've read a couple of statements in this thread that puzzle me.

 

1. Apparently Sigismund killed ~24 Champions of Chaos during the Siege of Terra, but why do people assume that all occurred in one day?

 

2. Only Horus and Abaddon walked away from Ullanor. Really?! I think there were rather more than two survivors of that campaign!

[Conn Eremon]

1. You are probably right, the Siege itself was about 55 days, right?

 

2. It refers specifically to the fight against the Warlord of Ullanor, not the overall Campaign. Horus, Abaddon and the First Company fought the Warboss and its entourage. When Horus killed the Warboss, he found that only Abaddon had survived the battle against its lieutenants and guards, who were all dead.

[Wade Garrett]

To think that two of the best warriors the legions have to offer would spar for 30 hours with their respective honor on the line and not do their best is to not understand how the mind of a real warrior operates. When you go against the best, it brings out the best you have.

 

I can't speak for the military, but I know a thing or two about how professional fighters train, and one thing they do NOT do is go 100% percent [redacted] to the wall in sparring because OORAH REAL WARRIORS KEEPING IT REAL.

 

The gym (or the fighting pit) is NOT the battlefield, not even in the Astartes Legions, and a "real" warrior is intelligent enough to know that.

 

In real life, someone who tries to maul their training partners to death in every session because "OORAH REAL COMBAT" doesn't get lauded for being a true warrior, they wind up on the wrong end of a Delvarus style lesson by getting paired up with

partners twice their size, twice their skill, or both, until they either learn to chill out or get tired of being pounded into the floor every training session and quit.

 

I would assume most militaries hold similar views, because they'd prefer their soldiers to be capable of soldiering when they need them, not laid up in the infirmary because "HARD TRAINING FOR HARD MEN OORAH!"

[marshal seanisi]

My argument isn't about "OORAH REAL COMBAT" It's about sparring with the best. And if you are rolling with someone considered to be the best, It tends to bring out the best in you. And when you give all you have and it doesn't seem to be working then it's easy to get frustrated.

 

And yes. "in real life" if someone does get frustrated and decides to do something stupid, (like head butt) then they are taught a lesson.

[Cactus]

Thanks for the clarification.

When Horus killed the Warboss, he found that only Abaddon had survived the battle against its lieutenants and guards, who were all dead.

Maybe it's my latent paranoia but this makes Abaddon seem very shifty. Are we sure his real name isn't Alpharius?

Horus [turning from the warlord's corpse]: "The orks slew the First Company? All of them?"
Abaddon [wiping blood from his blade]: "All of them. I'm lucky to have survived myself."