Scars by Chris Wraight

[Chaeron]

In reading Vengeful Spirit now, it makes me want to be reading Scars again: because it was that good. I would still tout this as one of the most underrated books in a long time.

[Conn Eremon]

Some fair points there, I just find the approach of writing for a faction heavily as the protagonist belittles the rest of the setting. I don't have an issue with the Wolves, as again on a superficial level Battle of the Fang was fine to me and they certainly 'won' in that book...kind of? :p

 

I typed up reams of text, but realized it was my 'must rage about Prospero Burns' issue, and so deleted it.

 

I like balance I guess, I want it to make sense and cohesive. Same issue I had with Unremembered Empire and Roboute getting gunned down almost pitifully easily. Its out of balance with the rest of the setting.

 

I guess I just dont like when an author with Abnett's pull (and its obvious when you look at the impact of Prospero Burns and Legion on the setting) uses those powers for 'evil' and doesnt write with the setting in mind compared to the protagonists.

 

Or at least not enough so for this reader. :p

That's the thing, I think. He does bring balance to the setting. He doesn't use his pull to remake it. It doesn't belittle. It's just a viewpoint. Like mine and yours. Can you imagine the rage Space Wolf fans would have if they learned something about their faction from your viewpoint? I don't mean 'what you want to see,' but 'how you view them now and how your dislike for them biases that view.' That's not an insult, to be clear. You have your interest and you are clear about where that interest doesn't apply. But it would not actually change anything, the setting. It would just be a different way of looking at it. A shift of perspective only. Like reading a heroic journey from the villain's viewpoint. But they would not want to look at it like that. They want to look at it differently, favorably. Abnett provides that for everyone. Mileage may vary, but every faction he writes for gets a perspective that puts them in a good light. And mileage does vary. You saw a scene where Guilliman was gunned down by pitiful attacks. I saw Guilliman beat certain death with a marble bust. In my opinion, Mortarion suffered worse for less in Vengeful Spirit, and I think no one complains because it was more of a heroic action than being ambushed by Alpha Legionnaires.

 

But, I get that it might be seen as contradictory. I guess I just like that about 40k. I like that the World Eaters enslave themselves in the name of freedom. I like that the Night Lords judge others for actions far less monstrous than their own. I like that the Ultramarines built the Imperium of tomorrow on ideals that have no place in it, if they ever did. They all have their own perspective, that views themselves as best as possible. Abnett just shows that. I have every belief that had the Prospero duology been switched around, the Thousand Sons viewpoint would have made the Wolves look absolutely horrible. It was all just perspective.

 

But this is veering into a debate on Prospero Burns, so perhaps I will leave it there.

[Scribe]

Thing is, its not just a viewpoint when its Abnett writing it, because its now become a viewpoint repeated in multiple books, by multiple authors. It BECAME the Wolves.

 

Again, I like Space Wolves. I like Abnetts Wolves, and what ADB took from that in the writing of Emperors Gift especially because he brings them inline with the setting. Abnett disregards setting balance, for 'perspective'.

 

I deleted another wall of text. :D

 

I think your point is well made, Abnett writes from a perspective. I just find it disrespects the rest of the setting, because it may not be presented as perspective, until another author like ADB comes in, and saves me from throwing my computer out the window after reading 'Well yeah, it supports the case of Wolves being Astartes + 1', as we have seen with Prospero Burns just the other day.

[Wade Garrett]

Honestly, I was one of the frontrunners in the "Froth at mouth while veins in forehead and neck bulge alarmingly" over Roboute vs the Alpha Legion when it was first brought to my attention, but now that I've finally read UE, I've made my peace with it.

 

The only thing I wish Dan had done differently was have Roboute ask the lead assassin who he was, get "I am Alpharius"...turn and shoot him dead, THEN deliver his "When you have a Primarch at your mercy, do not waste time answering his questions...especially when he has a boltgun in his hand."

 

As written....

 

"Aeonid Thiel":

Mwah ha ha! I shall gloat, then deliver my killing blow!"

 

Guilliman:

That's not how you gloat before killing someone. THIS is how you gloat before killing someone!

[Scribe]

Your a better man than I Wade. I cannot reconcile Lorgar, Angron, and Betrayer Rob, with 'I almost died to 10 Tactical marines'.

[mc warhammer]

cormac, i found myself nodding along with everything you've written in regards to author preference and agree with your rationale for it; as i've mentioned previously i have no personal preference or bias for what i want out of a story other than good writing. full stop.

 

and unfortunately (so far) only two BL authors approach that standard. i don't know if i could confidently hand any HH novel to someone outside the fan base to read, but if i did, i'd choose abnett hands down. adb is a close second and only because of those reasons you mentioned- he relies somewhat on fan expectations when crafting a story. that might not give the best of possible stories though it certainly hits all the 40k pleasure centres in the brain. i really want to find other BL authors to appreciate.

 

i'm really looking forward to reading scars soon. i'm in catch up mode and almost done with KNF (which is like reading a film script in novel form. it's great. i normally skip the action in the novels but i find myself eating up each word) and i'm considering jumping straight into the white scars stuff.

[Wade Garrett]

Well...setting aside for the moment all speculation in the vein of "Alpharius hand picked Kaa the Cross Eyed, Baelish the Fumble Fingered, Jorg Who Was Born With Easy Broken Bones, etc because he wanted the assassination attempt to fail due to COMPLICATED XX LEGION REASONS...."

 

I highly doubt it was just a Tactical Squad. Those guys were a Seeker Squad at the very least, possibly even some of the Mor Dethyan specialists everyone keeps stealing from the Raven Guard with the Alpha Rite of War. ;)

[b1soul]

As for my opinion of the author, I have two good books called Scars and Wrath of Iron. I have two mediocre story called Brotherhood of the Storm and Rebirth. 

 

I guess different strokes for different folks as I enjoyed Brotherhood of the Storm a lot more than I did Aurelian, which has been touted as the best of the novellas

 

 

one book that can only be compared to the Ultramarines series in Battle of the Fang. 

 

Odd...must Wolves fans love Battle of the Fang

 

Blood of Asaheim seems to be more divisive

 

 

Your a better man than I Wade. I cannot reconcile Lorgar, Angron, and Betrayer Rob, with 'I almost died to 10 Tactical marines'.

 

Indeed...I mean come on Bobby, 10 tacticals? For shame!

[Aegnor]

I'm not a Wolves fan apart from the sense that most 30k/40k fans like the Wolves (because they are cool). I like the Thousand Sons just as much. But I didn't think Battle of the Fang made either side look unfairly better or worse than the other. Thought it was a very good novel.

[SteelPaladin]

When I read that scene, my first thought was "Oh man, those are some bad Alpha Legionaires!" I assumed that since they were in a position to almost assassinate a Primarch, that they were hardened veterans who had trained specifically for such a mission.

Then I went on the internet, saw the rage, and learned that they were simply a rookie tactical squad, and it was Guilliman who was weak...

[Scribe]

They where dressed up, clearly had done some homework on how to get inside, but in the end, a bolter is a bolter is a bolter no?

[Perrin]

When I read that scene, my first thought was "Oh man, those are some bad Alpha Legionaires!" I assumed that since they were in a position to almost assassinate a Primarch, that they were hardened veterans who had trained specifically for such a mission.

Then I went on the internet, saw the rage, and learned that they were simply a rookie tactical squad, and it was Guilliman who was weak...

I'm not sure such a thing as a rookie marine even exists this far into the Heresy

Like ScribeofKhorne above said, at the end of the day it's still 10 marines with ordinary bolters and normal tactical armour vs a Primarch. It doesn't matter how much they train to specifically fight a Primarch, they still shouldn't have come close. Especially if you compare it with Super Curze later on in the same novel, he took out the entire Wolf Pack in seconds, easily. Perturabo in Crimson Fist takes out around 30 Imperial Fists like it's nothing.

Sure it's fine them doing some damage, being specially prepared to do what they did and knowing it was coming where as Guilliman was caught almost completely by surprise, and yes they probably were handpicked from the hardiest most deadly Alpha Legionnaires around, but there is still no way they should have almost killed him.

[Conn Eremon]

You mean two Primarchs who were armed, armored and prepared for war did better against attackers than one who was, at the time, none of those things?

 

Shocking.

[Wade Garrett]

And as far as Curze and the Wolf pack goes, I think it's worth noting that Guilliman ended his attackers, no ifs, no ands, clap hands together, rub dust off, them dead, him alive, done.

 

Curze...did he actually KILL any of the Wolves? I know Bludbroder was still running around at the novel's end, and mention is made of some of the Wolves needing to be treated in the apocetharion, but were any of them confirmed KIA?

 

It's also worth noting also that the pack decided to fight Curze with axes and swords as befits the hearty men of Fenris, meanwhile Alpharius's get realized that these things called "boltguns" have been invented, and might come in handy if you are, I don't know, going to seal yourself in a room with a demigod and try to pull an Ides of March.

[Scribe]

You mean two Primarchs who were armed, armored and prepared for war did better against attackers than one who was, at the time, none of those things?

 

Shocking.

 

Yes, because when primarchs can military press a titan, can punch the heads off of marines, can dig through the earth, or get eaten by a daemon thing, and then come out the other side...its too much to expect another primarch to walk through 10 guys with bolters.

[SteelPaladin]

It's also worth noting that while yes, they used bolters, there could have been any kind of shell loaded in said bolters. I mean, this is the legion who developed the Banestrike shells specifically to kill marines. There could have been anything in those shells.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

You mean two Primarchs who were armed, armored and prepared for war did better against attackers than one who was, at the time, none of those things?

 

Shocking.

Yes, because when primarchs can military press a titan, can punch the heads off of marines, can dig through the earth, or get eaten by a daemon thing, and then come out the other side...its too much to expect another primarch to walk through 10 guys with bolters.

I don't really recall Angron being pierced through by explosives by the Titan's foot, or digging through exploding grenades, which would have been more comparable to the more dangerous position that Guilliman was in.

 

But are you honestly going to try and tell me that any of those examples invalidate Guilliman's position at that time? That one being strong, while wearing strength-boosting armor, equates to another having bulletproof skin? Even bullets that explode? Or that one's ability to kill a single daemon means that another can walk through a rapidly firing wall of death without a scratch?

[Wade Garrett]

I'll have to re-read Betrayer to be sure (Such an onerous task. However shall I endure the hardship?) but didn't the War Hound Librarians tell Angron he was killing himself, literally skinning himself alive while he was burrowing through the rubble the Evocati dropped on his head at Armatura?

[Scribe]

I'll have to re-read Betrayer to be sure (Such an onerous task. However shall I endure the hardship?) but didn't the War Hound Librarians tell Angron he was killing himself, literally skinning himself alive while he was burrowing through the rubble the Evocati dropped on his head at Armatura?

 

Yes, yes he did, 200 feet of stone and earth, if I do remember correctly, after having an apartment block dumped on his head. At which point he then busts out (with his bro's help of course...his bro that pulls Thunderhawks from the sky and throws boulders through the faces of Warhounds) only to negate the downward force of a titan.

 

Its ok though, because his armour let him do it. Yeah.

 

Unless Primarchs are all show, and its their wargear that makes them so rad (and I dont think this fits for like...95% of primarch face time) Rob in UE gets punked by Abnett.

 

Contrast with Know No Fear, where he hangs out in space without a helmet even.

 

Are bolters THAT hardcore?

[Conn Eremon]

Are bolters just peashooters?

[Scribe]

Compared to a Primarch? Yes. :p

[Conn Eremon]

Well, thank god for me they aren't, because turning Primarchs into Superman would make for pretty crappy stories.

 

Oh look, the challenges, setbacks and conflicts all got resolved instantaneously at the very end with absolutely no climactic fanfare once the Primarch remembered that he was, in fact, a Primarch and that problems were just things that can be thrown into suns.

[Scribe]

I think in the end Cormac its perspective vs setting again. There's nothing else in the setting that says 10 dudes can kill a Primarch with bolters, but there are plenty of things in the setting that say Primarchs can withstand and do, amazing things.

 

EDIT: No, they just need to make those problems fit the scale of Primarchs. If the Legion had packed in a nuke for example, I would accept Rob was hospitalized over that...in the end its still 30K, and like 40K...it needs to be cranked to 11 at all times. :p

[b1soul]

I'm firmly on scribe in this matter. The gap between primarch and marine is arguably even greater than the gap between marine and mortal. Fulgrim took a sniper round to the eye...to the eye. He then pretended that he was hurt to manipulate Perturabo.

 

...yet Guilliman can barely tolerate a few bolter rounds to ceremonial armour. 

 

Keep in mind that from a primarch's perspective, marines should move like slugs. Guilliman, the guy who held off Lorgar and Angron at once, should have stomped 10 marines based only on his vastly superior reflexes and speed. The fact that they're all in a room is even better for Guilliman as he doesn't have to close distance

 

It's also worth noting that while yes, they used bolters, there could have been any kind of shell loaded in said bolters. I mean, this is the legion who developed the Banestrike shells specifically to kill marines. There could have been anything in those shells.

 

I'm really hoping that's the case. Would make it a little better. 

[Conn Eremon]

Fulgrim had a splinter that bounced around on his skull and skin, missing brain matter.

 

Guilliman had craters blown into his flesh.

 

And they were moving like slugs. That's why Guilliman was able to actually survive the rapidly firing wall of freaking death.

 

There has not been a scene yet where a Primarch was more in danger, including when Ferrus was freaking killed. And yet, there is an issue that Guilliman was harmed? Even though others have been hurt worse for less, such as Lorgar, Angron and Mortarion, two of which are consistently called out as examples of how much better they were than Guilliman? And it was in Betrayer, the very book used as an example!