Scars by Chris Wraight

[Wade Garrett]

Something else that bothered me:

 

Xu'ven of the Salamanders and his devotion to the Promethean Cult is treated as a good thing ("If all the Imperium were Prometheans, none of this would have happened").

 

Meanwhile, the zeal of Lorgar and the Word Bearers, even as Pre-Monarchia Emperor worshippers, is written as a character flaw.

 

Why? Now, granted a lot of this comes from the perspective of the White Scars, who kinda missed the boat on that whole "Imperial Truth" thing, but what makes the Promethean Cult good and Lorgar's (non Chaos) worship bad?

 

Well, aside from the obvious that the Lectio Divinatus isn't nearly as pro hammers, fire, and blacksmithing as the Promethean Creed.

[Scribe]

Wasnt there a bit about how only 2 Primarchs wanted to build for something greater? Rob, and Lorgar. :D

[Wade Garrett]

Wasnt there a bit about how only 2 Primarchs wanted to build for something greater? Rob, and Lorgar. :D

Except that the Lorgar part is modified with "in his own warped, twisted way", yes.

 

That's another sore spot for me:

The trend to write things so that every Primarch on Blue

Team loathed every Primarch on Red Team, with the possible exception of Horus.

 

In some cases its understandable, Curze and Angron couldn't even get along with THEMSELVES, but then you have the Khan sneering at Fulgrim and Alpharius, Corax having always hated Perturabo and Mortarion...

 

Why can't we have more bits like in Betrayer, where Russ thought enough of Lorgar to quote his words at Angron? Or Magnus and Khan's friendship in Scars?

 

I much prefer the idea that the Heresy split a band of brothers, that battles were fought with heavy hearts and the hatred that can only be born from genuine love and respect, not "Always knew those jerks were trouble. Finally, we get to put every one of'em back in the ground!"

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Something else that bothered me:

 

Xu'ven of the Salamanders and his devotion to the Promethean Cult is treated as a good thing ("If all the Imperium were Prometheans, none of this would have happened").

 

Meanwhile, the zeal of Lorgar and the Word Bearers, even as Pre-Monarchia Emperor worshippers, is written as a character flaw.

 

Why? Now, granted a lot of this comes from the perspective of the White Scars, who kinda missed the boat on that whole "Imperial Truth" thing, but what makes the Promethean Cult good and Lorgar's (non Chaos) worship bad?

 

Well, aside from the obvious that the Lectio Divinatus isn't nearly as pro hammers, fire, and blacksmithing as the Promethean Creed.

 

The Promethean Creed is not a religion, and it did not overtly deify the Emperor. That's a massive difference.

 

And of course Xa'ven said what he did about the Promethean Creed - he ascribes to it ! ;) Hardly out of character for a Legionary to espouse the tenets of his Primarch's creed over all others. :)

[Wade Garrett]

It was Yetsuegi who said that about everyone being Promethean, wasn't it? Or I am mixing that up with the part where Bion is being all "Noctrune's hokey religions are no much for a good powerfist" and the Stormseer verbally slaps him down?

 

As for the Promethean Creed not being a religon-sez who? The Ultramarine protagonist in "Rules of Engagement" seemed to have some forthright opinions about the Salamander's beliefs ("superstitious reptile hunters", I believe are his exact words), not to mention that Xu'Ven himself discusses it in fairly religous terms ("I prefer to call it...faith.")

[Scribe]

I think faith, and skirting the border of what the Imperial position on religion is, is obviously a core component of the book, while Lorgar may have been called Warped and Twisted in his approach, that may be due to his desire to elevate the Emperor to a god, and not his position on faith, I cant support that with text obviously, but given the Salamander, and the alternate views of the scars, I dont see lorgar's faith or importance of faith to his world view as the issue.

 

Regarding the relationships between brothers, we get some views, but the Scars, and the Khan are noted outsiders, so this wouldnt have been a perfect book to explore primarch family bonds...

[malorn24]

Reading it now and so far my favorite line is when Bjorn says "this is what it must feel like to be in a Dreadnaught, poor bast " Completley obvious foreshadowing but I still laughed.

[Aegnor]

Obvious answer is obvious. The Promethean Creed does not involve a belief in the divine, it exalts humanity and the best qualities in humanity, rather than some supernatural source of power/wisdom/happy feels. That's the difference between the Salamanders and the Word Bearers and why one is exactly what the Emperor wanted his subjects to do and the other isn't.

 

As for the quote from Rules of Engagement: really? Really? We're using a story where the narrator, in character for the war scenarios he was fighting suggested legions that weren't traitors were traitors as a means to legitimise criticism of those legions? More to the point, why are we assuming that the narrator actually understands the nuance of another legion's philosophy?

[Wade Garrett]

Actually, do any of the novels or Codexes actually lay out the tenets of the Promethean Creed? Beyond the general "Fire and hammers are cool" stuff, I mean.

 

And is your argument really that we should ignore anything non Salamanders say about the sons of Vulkan, because they may not grasp the subtle points of Noctrunean philosophy?

 

RoE suggests the XVIII's Legion Cult diverged from the Imperial Truth sharply enough that an officer of the Ultramarines felt it was worth noting. Something that is certainly within the realm of possibility given the degree to which the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, and White Scars flouted and ignored the Emperor's secular dogma.

[Kol Saresk]

Fire and hammers and there seems to be a lot of suggestive shamanism towards the drakes of Nocturne. E.g., wearing their skin confers their strength to the wearer, something seen in more than a few cultures, Navajo and Norse being two examples off the top of my head.

[Plague Angel]

I'm pretty sure there's some details given in Deathwatch books (though of course, that's 10,000 years later). I can look it up, if people are willing to accept FFG soft-canon?

[Scribe]

I am...

 

EDIT: What I really want explored is 'Runes carved into Axes to prevent them from screaming their Nightmares into the Void' I really liked that for some reason.

[Aegnor]

There is plenty of stuff that gives the gist of what the Promethean Creed is in Nick Kyme's novels and short stories. There is never a detailed discussion explicitly about "this is what our creed is" but there is lots about what the Marines of the Salamanders taught them about what their duties and place in the world are.

 

Wade - the key difference I think is that Vulkan's Creed was profoundly humanist, rather than believing in the divine.

 

The tenets of the Creed are: self-reliance, discipline, self-improvement by labour and endurance of adversity (of which the legion/chapters affinity for blacksmithing is a symbol/expression), and the duty of the strong to protect the weak. There is certainly a range of symbolism and ritual around how they express key parts of their Creed, but no more I would argue than many other chapters in terms of their chapter cult, eg. the Imperial Fists in scrimshawing the bones of their fallen and using torture as a means of self-chastisement, the rituals of the Blood Angels etc.

[Greyall]

My understanding is the same as Aegnor's, the Cult of the Promethean seems to root an Astartes' life to that of a regular Nocturnean as much as possible (Salamanders were even said to keep in touch with their families): crafting and maintaining their wargear, caring for 'mortals'...it might involve some idols of fire and giant lizards, but nothing in religious terms, I think - animal embodiment is pretty normal for humans, and more akin to warpaint than cult.

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Superstitious practice does not automatically equate with religious practice or even necessarily belief in a deity. I'm not sure why this is a hangup, it's not even a particularly significant part of Scars.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, yes and no. "religion" is a very broad term, surprisingly. If I google "religion definition", this is what I come up with:

 

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"

synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More

sect, church, cult, denomination

"the freedom to practice their own religion"

a particular system of faith and worship.

plural noun: religions

"the world's great religions"

a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

"consumerism is the new religion"

In this case, we could say that "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance." Keyword is "could". Ultimately what drives the nail home is how the Promethean Cult is practiced. For example, believing that fire is purifying element. And page 121 of Massacre says that it drew on much of Nocturne's mythologies and when combined with the ritual scarring/branding that was taught to be for spiritual discipline, it would deviate from the strictly "spiritual does not exist" atheism of the Imperial Truth. One of the reasons many looked sideways at the Rune Priests I imagine. So there is enough* justification that one could argue that it is spiritual in nature, and therefore against the Imperial Truth.

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Well, yes and no. "religion" is a very broad term, surprisingly. If I google "religion definition", this is what I come up with:

 

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"

synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More

sect, church, cult, denomination

"the freedom to practice their own religion"

a particular system of faith and worship.

plural noun: religions

"the world's great religions"

a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

"consumerism is the new religion"

In this case, we could say that "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance." Keyword is "could". Ultimately what drives the nail home is how the Promethean Cult is practiced. For example, believing that fire is purifying element. And page 121 of Massacre says that it drew on much of Nocturne's mythologies and when combined with the ritual scarring/branding that was taught to be for spiritual discipline, it would deviate from the strictly "spiritual does not exist" atheism of the Imperial Truth. One of the reasons many looked sideways at the Rune Priests I imagine. So there is enough* justification that one could argue that it is spiritual in nature, and therefore against the Imperial Truth.

 

 

It's a world apart from actively encouraging worship of a specific individual - one as well-known as the Emperor of Mankind, at that - as a deity. It's been rehashed elsewhere that slightly aberrant practices amongst the Adeptus Astartes were prone to being overlooked given the Astartes' significance in the Emperor's machinations. Lorgar just took his practices to such a degree that they could no longer be ignored, as they were actively causing more problems than his Legion was solving. The humanism of the Promethean Cult is a world away from the dogmatic deity-worship of the Seventeenth Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes, its different from the Lectitio Divinatus. But you can't look at this from your mindset as a reader taught how to think by modern society. You have to be close-minded. You have to refuse to accept any an all change. Either it matches the way you view the world or it must be annihilated to the point of non-existence, where it is a bad memory that was lost as a fart on the wind. And guess what? The superstitious beliefs of primitives who look at giant lizards as spirit guides and ritually scar themselves is different. And the only reason you tolerate it is because the Big Man upstairs tells you to.

[Wade Garrett]

Let me clarify a bit:

 

I'm not saying "The Salamanders don't follow the Imperial Truth" as a knock on the Eighteenth. I personally think the whole idea of the IT makes as much sense as trying to reduce shark attacks by telling people "Ah yes, large carnivorous salt water fish that feast on human flesh? We have dismissed those claims."

 

Not to mention that it seems like nobody followed it anyway, what with all those Tech Priests of the Machine God running around and the Imperial Fists building temples to Martial Honor and Unyielding Perseverance on their ships. Wait a second....

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Yes, its different from the Lectitio Divinatus. But you can't look at this from your mindset as a reader taught how to think by modern society. You have to be close-minded. You have to refuse to accept any an all change. Either it matches the way you view the world or it must be annihilated to the point of non-existence, where it is a bad memory that was lost as a fart on the wind. And guess what? The superstitious beliefs of primitives who look at giant lizards as spirit guides and ritually scar themselves is different. And the only reason you tolerate it is because the Big Man upstairs tells you to.

 

I don't see the problem. You've summarised yourself exactly why the Promethean Creed was allowed to exist, and furthermore, why it is in no way comparable to the heresy spread by Lorgar. The Promethean Cult is just another set of vaguely spiritual beliefs tolerated by the Imperium's governing bodies - thinking mainly the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy - chiefly because a) it's a central philosophy to one of the most feared fighting units of all the Emperor's armies, and b ) it's actually harmless, in the long run. The number of individuals (Astartes and Nocturnan - is that a word?) who actually ascribe to the Promethean Cult is miniscule. By contrast, Lorgar's bunch of rabble rousers (I say that with all the love in my heart) were actively causing harm to Imperial doctrine and governance through spreading their overtly contradictory beliefs.

 

From an in-universe point of view, I don't think the above point of view really changes, nor does it need to. The Imperium knows pursuing the insular, inward-looking Prometheans will just lead to more problems than it solves, creating an enemy out of a band of loyal (if outlandish) servants; pursuing the Word Bearers, on the other hand, was a necessary action to prevent more worlds being corrupted by a false ideology. I'm really not sure why these two creeds are even comparable, one is miniscule and stagnant (in that it's not seeking to expand) and the other is/was an aggressively expansive ideology based on dogma and evangelism.

 

To your credit, though, there is a story in the back of Codex: Space Marines 3rd edition where an agent of the Ecclesiarchy actively warns against the spread of several ritual traditions in the Adeptus Astartes (and funnily enough, specifically the Promethean Creed) as dangerously heretical. I was always under the impression that the Imperium was happy to turn a blind eye to these practices specifically because they tend to be insular and sterile. Whether or not a belief system intends to spread is, to me, the ultimate factor in whether or not the Imperium attempts to stamp it out.

 

Not to mention that it seems like nobody followed it anyway, what with all those Tech Priests of the Machine God running around and the Imperial Fists building temples to Martial Honor and Unyielding Perseverance on their ships. Wait a second....

 

Yeah, exactly.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that what I said explains exactly what Wade said and was being told he was wrong for saying because he was referencing Rules of Engagement. :

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

I give up, lol.

[Kol Saresk]

No, I get what you're saying. You're saying the Promethean Creed is no different from all of these different "methods of clean lifestyles" that exist nowadays. And as such, its okay and it should ve exempt from the Imperium's bias.

 

However, by the definition of the Imperial Truth, it has spiritual aspects. From the point of view of the Imperium, "it is spiritual, therefore religion". Therefore it is not worth having around. But it is tolerated because 1.)it doesn't interfere with the Salamanders' conquest of the Great Crusade and the Emperor and the more "liberal" elements of the Imperium say it must be tolerated.

 

So, a more rigid voice, such as an Ultramarine, calling it a religion isn't quite so off-base since in his eyes, it is a religion. To us, as readers, we see it differently from the Lectitio Divinatus because it teaches a method of living through spiritual discipline while the Lectitio Divinatus taught the worship of the Emperor, but to the Imperium, there is no difference. None, at all. As far as the Imperium is concerned, it is all the exact same. There is no distinction held by the Imperium at large, only those elements at the top who bother noting the difference. That's why I said you have to leave your mindset behind. You cannot look at any part of the situation with your eyes. You have to see it with theirs.

 

Just because one is tolerated where the other is not, it does not mean that one is exempt from the bias and prejudice against anything the Imperium classifies as religion.

[Aegnor]

I think you're ascribing 40k levels of intolerance and fearful superstition regarding matters religious (Hmmm superstition regarding superstition) to the 30k setting.

 

A 'method for clean living' to use your apt phrase that exalted humanity as the highest form of life in the galaxy, and did not conflict with the Imperial Truth in terms of whether the divine exists and the importance of rationality would not have been considered wrong at all by most.

 

The kinds of faiths that were persecuted in 30k fell into two categories: a belief in the supernatural or an acceptance of xenos as having a place in the galaxy. The Promethean Creed clearly does neither of those things.

 

What we are seeing in the Heresy though is the previous spirit of *relative* tolerance and trust in other Imperial subjects be destroyed. In that context, I have no issue with saying the Ultramarine captain calling the Salamanders "superstitious" in a pejorative manner reflected that situation. A loyalist forcd, cut off and unsure of loyalties was now looking at everyone, even previously trusted allies, with suspicion and dwelling on the points of difference as a negative. In that context, him not necessarily knowing much about the Creed isn't going to stop him from judging it as weird superstition. And this is replicated across the galaxy. That trend is one of the great tragedies of the Heresy.

 

But... That doesn't mean the Ultramarine was correct in considering the Salamanders religious, or that his view of them during that stage of the Heresy matched the view of most or even any Imperials prior to the Heresy, or the view of those actually in contact with the Salamanders during the Heresy and since.

[Kol Saresk]

The 30K setting is the setting where all religions must be burned to the ground and those who refused to be "enlightened" burned with them and the only tolerance is either at the individual level or is an Imperial mandate. Actually, the 40K religious system is more tolerant because as long as they think you're worshipping the Emperor, its good. Even if you do it by human sacrifice. The sacrifice of mutants and witches being the most encouraged.

 

And that's the point. It doesn't matter if the Ultramarine is right or not. His view is just the mainstream view.