Scars by Chris Wraight

[Conn Eremon]

It didn't really need to be after Fabulous Bill's experiments though. It could have referenced some other practice in the Legion that could be taken as a modification, while not being extreme enough to be comparable to what Fabius eventually gets into.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

But it is a gay retort, because the editor took the time to tell us that it has nothing to do with anything else but as a gay retort.

"In the opinion of the editor".

 

Death of the Author and all that.

When the editor says that it was presented to him as a gay joke, that he gave it the go-ahead as a gay joke and that canon-wise, it is a gay joke, opinion sort of goes out the window.

[Aegnor]

Wade - we know when Fabulous first spoke to Fulgrim about biological modification. We don't know that he hasn't been doing it covertly before that, do we?

[Chaeron]

 

 

But it is a gay retort, because the editor took the time to tell us that it has nothing to do with anything else but as a gay retort.

"In the opinion of the editor".

 

Death of the Author and all that.

Seems more as in "coming from the guy who spoke with the author and was involved in the writing process" kind of thing than a "I'm sure he just meant it like this" kind of thing.

 

 

But it's still his interpretation. If Chris Wraight outright tells me that it was that, then I'll probably say "okay, sure". However, putting it in the public domain invites us to critique it - I'm not going all out Barthes and saying now the author has no say in it (i.e. we can interpret it to mean whatever we like, for good or bad, and he loses 'ownership' or 'authorsihp' of it's meaning) - but it's still open to interpretation from the editor as much as it is from any other reader of any text.

 

 

 

 

But it is a gay retort, because the editor took the time to tell us that it has nothing to do with anything else but as a gay retort.

"In the opinion of the editor".

 

Death of the Author and all that.

When the editor says that it was presented to him as a gay joke, that he gave it the go-ahead as a gay joke and that canon-wise, it is a gay joke, opinion sort of goes out the window.

 

 

Oh agreed, but until Wraight says that - then it's just conjecture, irrespective of the editor's standing. I have no problem with it either way - if it is, or if it isn't. But, it obviously didn't jar with me in the same way it has with others.

[Kol Saresk]

Honestly, my schtik is his response. I thought it was just a continuity error at first, or if it was just referring to something unknown or something, like maybe the EC had tried combat stimms or something that was still radical, but not as radical as they became.

 

But instead its like "No its a gay joke." Okay, I didn't see it that way, but whatever. I'd be with Deus Ex, its kids being kids. And when you cut the meat, the Primarchs still are kids. Super smart, but socially undeveloped except in a few cases.

 

And then it gets added too "Its a gay joke because the culture of the Imperium is that fascist." Ummm, have you not read the rest of the Heresy series where even the Terran culture contradicts that statement?

 

That is the end-all be-all of my schtik with it. What i thought might have been a minor continuity error or a reference to some hitherto unknown fact is instead being blamed on a culture that has been shown to run contrary to what is being blamed on it.

 

Take Braveheart. Nobody blinked when Longshanks threw his son's boyfriend out the window. Why? Because that was the culture. Today, people had a problem with an eighteen year old girl who had sex with a fifteen year old girl because "she was obviously targeted as a hate crime." Times change, cultures change. They go back and forth. Sodom and Gomorrah to Israel to Greece and Rome and beyond.

 

But the Imperium's culture has already been shown to not care about one's sexuality because it deals with so many planets with so many cultures and so many different values.

[Knight of the Raven]

Fulgrim's reply wasn't "They wear dresses of their own volition. I have nothing to do with it. It creeps me out personally, but I'm not one to stifle art" so I think the joke sucks.

[Greyall]

As much as a sage The Khan claimed to be, sages in other times were still influenced by the prevailing culture, be it mysoginistic, racist, etc...

 

Plus, the Khan's "unruly teen/most definitely not a sage" moments are most likely intended, since he's supposed to man up and do his duty rather than bask in all his independence (bought with daddy's toys)

[Wade Garrett]

Well, yes, but I don't ever recall Socrates or Lao-tze responding to a kind-of-maybe-insult with "Verily, thou art a fondler of small children and farm animals".

 

Which was probably because they lived in Ancient Greece and China, not Elizabethan England, but still.

[Greyall]

I wouldn't be shocked if such a thing had happened, either with homossexuality or any other perceived 'flaw'.

 

Other things that seem plausible for the 'Sage Khan' (please don't misunderstand my chip on the shoulder about Jaghatai: I don't like the character's flaws, but I very much like the way they were written):

 

- Calling Guilliman an unspirited automaton

- Calling Russ a barbarian - I guess because the Wolf doesn't write poems...

- Calling out Angron for his lack of self-control while every one of his brothers calls him unpredictable

- Calling his father a tyrant (heh)

 

As said, the Khan seems a bit insular, the kind of person who doesn't want to leave his 3x4 room, yet digs down all he can as if that helps him perceive his surroundings. He's got the skills and the basic wisdom, but needs to drop some prejudices.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, yes, but I don't ever recall Socrates or Lao-tze responding to a kind-of-maybe-insult with "Verily, thou art a fondler of small children and farm animals".

 

Which was probably because they lived in Ancient Greece and China, not Elizabethan England, but still.

That's my point. The Imperium is not the same kind of culture as Medieval Europe. Its more like Rome/Greece, except they don't have a problem with the women of the Isle of Lesbos. That is the 30K Imperium: As long as you do not partake in anything viewed as detrimental to the Great Crusade, we don't care. We don't care if it violates the Imperial Truth or the Imperial Law. As long as you kill and convert in the name of the Imperium with due vigilance.

 

But then we're being told "All of a sudden, certain practices that have been accepted before are now being looked down upon."

[Gripharius]

Did you really read that and think "He just called Fulgrim gay"??? i know I didn't when I first saw it

I can honestly say, when I read that exchange, I didn't think it was a gay reference at all. There has been zero sexuality from any of the Primarchs or the Space Marines, so it didn't even enter my thinking. I assumed it was a continuity error referencing the body mod. It makes sense to me that, if the Khan suddenly got defensive about modifying his Legion's ships, he would fire back at Fulgrim about modifying his Legion's marines.

 

So far the Primarchs have demonstrated no sexuality in any direction, so to have the first mention of it be an insulting allusion to homosexuality is both crass and irrelevant.

I don't care that it is a reference to homosexuality as it is a reference to any sexuality, which has been totally non-existent otherwise. It just makes no sense as a sexual reference given that the Primarchs and Space Marines have consistently been portrayed as uber-asexual.

 

Again, the intonation, meaning and effect completely fits in line for me, considering it is aimed at Fulgrim. Now I too would be up in arms if Guilliman went "fag", but the way it was written it stands as a solid retort by the Khan based on what we know about Fulgrim.

I disagree. Even if you want to infer some Slaanesh-ness sexuality into Fulgrim later, the utter lack of any indication of any sexuality of the Primarchs up to the point the remark was made is what makes the editor's retroactive characterization of it as a sexual slur totally incongruent. I don't mean that from a moral perspective, and it doesn't even really matter that it is "gay" or whatever. It doesn't fit the setting, it doesn't fit the particular situation ("Your ships are funky" "Oh yeah? You're gay!") and it doesn't really fit the character of the Khan.

 

I mean, I could see it making more sense if it was in the context of Fulgrim saying "You do something mysterious to your ships that make them unnaturally fast" and the Khan responding "You do something mysterious to your Legion to make them a bunch of Nancy boys that prance around like peacocks" but not that he's saying "You like to bugger young boys" or whatever. It just isn't Grimdark.

[Chaeron]

 

Did you really read that and think "He just called Fulgrim gay"??? i know I didn't when I first saw it

I can honestly say, when I read that exchange, I didn't think it was a gay reference at all. There has been zero sexuality from any of the Primarchs or the Space Marines, so it didn't even enter my thinking. I assumed it was a continuity error referencing the body mod. It makes sense to me that, if the Khan suddenly got defensive about modifying his Legion's ships, he would fire back at Fulgrim about modifying his Legion's marines.

 

Same.

[b1soul]

And that is the kicker, it could have been played off so very easily, but instead it is now blatantly declared that it was indeed a tasteless gay joke. Not that gay jokes are tasteless, but this one in particular was.

 

I wouldn't call it tasteless...more like not fitting for the situations and the characters

 

I think modification of EC warriors has likely been attempted prior to Fabius Bile's more depraved experimentation? I think it's quite possible.  

[Aegnor]

Maybe prior to the Laeran campaign Bile kept himself cosmetic surgery and botox to keep the ECs looking perfect. Maybe that's what the Khan was referring to.

[Greyall]

Can't recall which novel it was ('Fulgrim', most likely), but Fulgrim was pretty pissed at first when Bile proposed a few 'improvements' after the Laeran Campaign. Of course he could've been doing some minor ones in secrecy, but still.

 

It comes off as denial, but I can't believe the "It's a gay joke" justification, it sounds too much like "It's definitely not a continuity error". But if it is a gay joke, even if justifiable, it's not too well written, given the III Legion's history of surgical modifications.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but IIRC, it was the fact the improvements were gene-splicing xenos DNA, surgical enhancements and then using drugs created from xenos hormones that got the "Oh Hell No!". Combat stimms and drugs created by and for the Imperium probably would not have been a problem and would have been "minor" enough to "not be a modification".

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Has the irony of complaining about a non-PC joke in the Warhammer 40,000 setting hit anyone yet?

 

I'm still not sold on the Khan being a homophobe, it still strikes me as a comeback for the sake of a comeback more than anything else. I'm not sure why it's sparked this much furore when (if we really, really want to apply postmodern/politically correct thinking to 40k) there are issues much more prevalent throughout the background that can be discussed.

 

Not that I'm against discussing the joke, by the way, just that 40k is supposed to be a universe of extremes, and a single may-possibly-have-been-a-gay-joke seems like very small fry indeed in the bigger picture of xenophobia, fascism and sadism that permeates the universe.

[Greyall]

Aye, it doesn't shock me in the slightest, either. Every culture tends to have its prejudices, writing about a grimdark (even at the time) setting should include some of them.

 

But, as said, it just doesn't seem to sink in, compared to the more 'top-of-mind' alternative of continuity blotch.

 

@Kol: true, very true. I forgot the Imperium uses combat stims and other substances - and in another show of how strange these times are, my guess is they don't even need to test it on animals, with all those Eversor around.

 

PS: And prisoners...those too...

[Frosco Toppings]

Ok, here's what he should have said:

 

Fulgrim walks into hab unit 12837 with a Sister of Battle on his back. The barman says "that's virgin on the ridiculous"

 

*taps mic* Is this thing on?

[Gripharius]

Has the irony of complaining about a non-PC joke in the Warhammer 40,000 setting hit anyone yet?

 

I'm still not sold on the Khan being a homophobe, it still strikes me as a comeback for the sake of a comeback more than anything else. I'm not sure why it's sparked this much furore when (if we really, really want to apply postmodern/politically correct thinking to 40k) there are issues much more prevalent throughout the background that can be discussed.

 

Not that I'm against discussing the joke, by the way, just that 40k is supposed to be a universe of extremes, and a single may-possibly-have-been-a-gay-joke seems like very small fry indeed in the bigger picture of xenophobia, fascism and sadism that permeates the universe.

 

My issue is not that the joke is "non-PC" or whatever.  The homosexual aspect of it doesn't bother me.  What bugs me is that a sex "joke" seems totally incongruent for the setting overall, the situation in which it occurred and the character who said it.

 

And what turns it from a "may-possibly-have-been-a-gay-joke" into something a little more worthy of discussion is the editor's comments that expressly state it was intended to be sexual innuendo.

 

If it had merely been a xenophobic, fascist or sadist joke, that wouldn't be an issue because, as you said, xenophobia, fascism and sadism permeate the Grimdark.  Sexuality, however, is rare, and espcially rare with respect to Space Marines and Primarchs who have nigh-universally been portrayed as asexual.

 

That said, I really don't care as much about it as it may seem from the time I've wasted typing about it.  It's just another thing to flush away like the continuity errors and canon-warping that's fairly common for the BL.

[Blood Angel Scout]

I laughed when I first read it, a typical comeback/slagging match between team-mates, squad mates or any type of group where a bond has been forged through enduring a pressurised situation. Surprised it's caused so many posts of "complaint" though for a "PC" justification: the setting has always had marines with no sexual interest then, the implication that Fulgrim had been "fiddling" with his marines in reply to Khan "fiddling" with his craft, would indeed be a "strange" thing...who knows, maybe Fulgrim had insisted on all new recruits for the Emperor Children needed to have plastic surgery prior to taking the trial/test to see if they'd be selected for being implanted....

 

All that aside, I liked the scene as a whole as one of the rare instances where there are several primarchs interacting with one another, personally would like to see more of the early Great Crusade meetings between the primarchs and the Emperor but can't see that being produced, due to the stage or progression of the series to middle of the Heresy

[Kol Saresk]

I should add again, PC wasn't my concern. My concern(or however you want to term it) is that it is being blamed as a facet of a culture that runs contrary to it. It was being blamed as part of the Chogorian upbringing of the Khan, that'd be one thing since an individual planet's culture could run contrary to the Imperium at large. But it is being blamed on the Imperium at large. It'd be like saying the Nazis weren't anti-Semitic towards the Jews.

[Hyaenidae]

I appreciate everyone here saying mature about such a sensitive topic, I really do; Thank you all. But, the argument has become circular. Let's drop it, and move on to another topic about Scars.

 

=][=

[Wade Garrett]

I think I can sum up all my problems with Scars and the Khan's portrayal (as opposed to the V Legion) with two quotes.

 

"We are all tyrants." Mortarion rasped, picking up the pace of his scythe blows. "Do not fool yourself. We were bred for nothing else."

 

"Not I." said the Khan, whirling around him, moving with an unconscious balance. "I care nothing for dominion. Never have....."

p. 374

 

"Instead, I will tell you only this-the Legion is the ordu of Jaghatai, and none bare blades in it save by my word. Thus has it been ever since we first fought together on the Altak, and no power of the universe, be it Horus or the Emperor or the gods themselves, will EVER change that!"

p. 393

 

Say one thing for Jaghatai Khan, say he's totally self aware and not at all a hypocrite.

[Kais Klip]

Come now, not only is that nitpicky but the two aren't one and the same; Jaghatai enjoys the act of conquering rather than holding what he has conquered. That is why, were he to ever finish, he would simply "start over".