codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Scribe]

I too have read those, nice little changes if you like possessed.

 

(Further, my complaints are not silly. I am trying to save this game.)

[Yogi]

I think some people are mistaking the whole "we want legion rules" as "we want 20 man tactical squads with 'fury of the legion' and batteries of volkite weaponry". No most of the Legion warband guys including myself don't want that, what we are asking for is a set of traits that allow our legion warbands to reflect on the tabletop what they are like in fluff. For instance:

 

• Infiltrating Alpha Legion

• Night Lords with night vision

• Word Bearers with fearless (or some other fanatic something)

 

Get where I'm going with this? I don't want to field primarchs or a 3,000 man Cataphractii Terminator spearhead armed flash Gordon ray guns. I just want my Night Lords to actually be able to call themselves Night Lords, not dark blue chaos marines. You know, the same way every first founding chapter gets special traits that fit the style they've had SINCE THEY WERE A LEGION.

 

People get what you want. Many many chaos players here and elsewhere have made it clear. 

 

But GW doesn't want to give you anything. Not traits or Force Org changes through a type of HQ or anything. I know what you want I used to want it. But no one is going to give it to you ever. If you look at chaos codexes from 2nd to now only 3.5 has that. That was Haines baby. Haines ain't there no more. He's gone. Look at the 3rd dex before haines and its just like what we have now. That what Chaos will be until the end of time.  GW gives you a bitter pill so you can be a better chaos marine. 

[A D-B]

I think some people are mistaking the whole "we want legion rules" as "we want 20 man tactical squads with 'fury of the legion' and batteries of volkite weaponry". No most of the Legion warband guys including myself don't want that, what we are asking for is a set of traits that allow our legion warbands to reflect on the tabletop what they are like in fluff. For instance:

 

• Infiltrating Alpha Legion

• Night Lords with night vision

• Word Bearers with fearless (or some other fanatic something)

 

Get where I'm going with this? I don't want to field primarchs or a 3,000 man Cataphractii Terminator spearhead armed flash Gordon ray guns. I just want my Night Lords to actually be able to call themselves Night Lords, not dark blue chaos marines. You know, the same way every first founding chapter gets special traits that fit the style they've had SINCE THEY WERE A LEGION.

 

I'd guess that most Chaos Marine players play a mono-Legion warband, which hardly an unreasonable estimation. And I fully understand the dilemma between offering infinite choice to allow every possible variety of Chaos warband (relying on player choice to customise their army according to their background) and narrowly defined traits of "ALL NIGHT LORDS WARBANDS ARE LIKE THIS AND HAVE THESE SPECIAL RULES".

 

I'm not saying GW have nailed that balance, but then it was no closer in 3.5. That didn't represent mono-Legion warbands well at all. You can stick rules on something and make it different, but that doesn't make it appropriate or true to the lore.

 

I tend to sit firmly on the fence where this one's concerned. A Big Book of Warlord Traits, Chaos Wargear, and Warband Tactics would come close to what I want, cram-packed with juicy lore, but Legion Tactics: Night Lords and Legion Tactics: Iron Warriors would be missing the point so catastrophically that I don't even know where to begin shooting it down. (Plus, it's been shot down many times already, for good reason.)

 

It's a tough line to walk.

[Scribe]

Aaron, please shoot it down. Please convince me why Legion Tactics World Eaters: + 1 WS and Fearless, would be narrowly defining, and 'bad'.

 

I'm not kidding, i'm not trolling. Tell me why Legion Tactics Iron Warriors: Tank Hunters, makes no sense.

 

Night Lords: Night Vision, etc, etc.

 

I'm not asking for 'Hey I'm the Raptor Legion'. A simple USR, and calling it what it is, is all I'm asking about.

[Scribe]

And for the record, I get that min/max happens. I've done it before, I've played against it before. I know Daemon bomb was a thing. I know about the history of Iron Warriors, and I know  that some traits will be 'bad' (Looking at you Night Lords with Night Vision) and I 100% honestly get that it still wouldnt be balanced.

 

Frankly though, thats not what many of us are asking for, and I think a lot of people know it, but just dont want to admit it.

 

EDIT: I'm going to take this to another thread, so the mods dont smite me.

[Noctus Cornix]

(Further, my complaints are not silly. I am trying to save this game.)

 

I wasn't pinpointing you specifically, Scribe. I was more going along the complaints of 'why isn't this a Legion supplement'. Its a supplement for chaos, we should be happy to get just about anything that will buff our armies. The actual warband in question honestly doesn't matter because no matter what warband you play, you'll probably be using the rules. Hell, I have an Emperor's Children and a Night Lords player at my store. They both use the Black Legion supplement pretty regularly.

[Scribe]

Thats fair noctus, I'm just arrogant enough to believe every post is directed towards me. ;)

[A D-B]

Aaron, please shoot it down. Please convince me why Legion Tactics World Eaters: + 1 WS and Fearless, would be narrowly defining, and 'bad'.

 

I'm not kidding, i'm not trolling. Tell me why Legion Tactics Iron Warriors: Tank Hunters, makes no sense.

 

Night Lords: Night Vision, etc, etc.

 

I'm not asking for 'Hey I'm the Raptor Legion'. A simple USR, and calling it what it is, is all I'm asking about.

 

Me, Legatus, and loads of others have done it a billion times. It'll be on the forum in various places; I don't think I've got it in me to type it out again. It essentially comes down to the infinite variety between even mono-Legion warbands.

 

I'm not commenting on what people are asking for. Just that there's no easy answer, and listing the "obvious" answer (Legion Tactics) as being pretty useless. It homogenises tactics and playing style in a way that just doesn't exist across the Legions. To be part of a Legion can mean as much or as little as a warband wants. Just getting Night Vision or re-rolling bolter shots is... it's just small fry. It's meaningless. It doesn't even begin to encompass the variety in a Legion's warbands. 

 

But that's the trick. Don't take an argument against a simple, boring (and, sadly, wrong) solution as a rousing endorsement for anything else. 

[Brother Heinrich]

I'm with Scribe on this one Aaron, I fail to see how the genetic trait gifted to Night Lords via their geneseed and upbringing on the streets of Nostramo/the underhive prisons of Terra does not make it into gameplay and give them Night Vision on the tabletop. That does not seem limiting in the slightest.

 

If the argument is that no set of rules will accurately represent the legion warbands so why try, that's rubbish as well. Do the chapter traits adequately portray all the social nuances and character of each found legion and their successors? No of course not, but they give people the feel of playing White Scars, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, etc. That does not seem like an unreasonable request to me.

[A D-B]

I'm with Scribe on this one Aaron, I fail to see how the genetic trait gifted to Night Lords via their geneseed and upbringing on the streets of Nostramo/the underhive prisons of Terra does not make it into gameplay and give them Night Vision on the tabletop. That does not seem limiting in the slightest.

 

If the argument is that no set of rules will accurately represent the legion warbands so why try, that's rubbish as well. Do the chapter traits adequately portray all the social nuances and character of each found legion and their successors? No of course not, but they give people the feel of playing White Scars, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, etc. That does not seem like an unreasonable request to me.

 

Because it's useless. It's Chaos Marines with Night Vision. That doesn't mean "Night Lords". That doesn't mean anything.

 

Like I said, don't take shooting down an awful solution as a rousing endorsement for what we currently have. My entire stance on this, as detailed above (and everywhere, frequently) is that there's no easy solution and I'm glad I don't have to think of one.

[Noctus Cornix]

I may fervently disagree with you on the stance of Legion rules, Scribe (and likely will be until I actually see a working version that makes sense which I doubt) but people  wanting the rules isn't silly and I won't mock you for having them. I find it to be somewhat misguided, but I blame that on the 3.5 codex. Everyone has something they want out of this hobby, nothing wrong with voicing it.

 

Chaos Marines aren't Chapters. They no longer follow a strict set of guidelines that dictate their art of warfare down to the letter and they rarely practice any measure of doctrine that they once had because most simply lack the ability or means too, and others just don't care.

 

I'm with AD-B on this one.

[Scribe]

No it does mean something. It means your a Night Lord, trapped by Huron, in a cell where the light is so bright you weep blood.

 

It DOES mean something. I dont give a :cuss if its balanced and 'meaningful' in the rules. Look at Iron Hands and their comically OP traits compared to a few others. Thats not the point.

 

Night Lords, Night Vision, it honestly does mean something to Legion fans who are (admittedly unbalanced) asking for them.

[Dravenguild]

So rather than trying to hit a few of the bases it's better to not try at all? Is what I gather from that. And homogenizing? I think there's enough in the game of that as is, it certainly beats relying on a handful of stupidly powerful gimmicks in our book to have some extra flavor for those not inclined to the daemonic or renegades aspect of chaos.

 

This was supposed to be quoted to ADB

[Yogi]

Legion traits would make people happy. A lot of people. You don't have to use the trait. But you can. Easy enough. Even if it is just night vision for Night Lords. I've seen this discussion a million times and I know what your saying ADB, but traits would be cool. It wouldn't capture the complete blah blah of this legion and its varied warbands but who cares. Traits are cool. They will never ever happen again. But they would be cool.  

[Dam13n]

At the end of the day, this is a hobby.  We as hobbyists can make it what we want.  GW gives us a framework (the rulebook, and the codices), what we make of them, and how we use them is up to us.

 

We have a Homegrown Rules forum dedicated to this very thing.

 

Want some Night Lord rules.  Start a discussion there, see what comes up.  Then, once you've got something you think is workable and fair, take the end result to your mates and ask them nicely if you can use these "supplemental" rules in your friendly games.

 

Yes, this doesn't help tournament players, but are any of you tournament players?

[A D-B]

No it does mean something. It means your a Night Lord, trapped by Huron, in a cell where the light is so bright you weep blood.

 

It DOES mean something. I dont give a :cuss if its balanced and 'meaningful' in the rules. Look at Iron Hands and their comically OP traits compared to a few others. Thats not the point.

 

Night Lords, Night Vision, it honestly does mean something to Legion fans who are (admittedly unbalanced) asking for them.

 

You're missing the point, here. You're taking the stance that I'm arguing against Legion Tactics and... that's all. Which is the exact opposite of what I'm saying. 

 

I'm saying it's a basic, meaningless (and lore-wise, fairly incorrect) way of representing the Legions. Just because it's easy and right there, doesn't mean it's good. The entirety of my point is founded on the difficulty of finding that unique way of presenting Legion warbands. Not that they shouldn't be presented.

 

If you think Legion Tactics is the One True Way of doing it, more power to you. To me, it comes across as simple, lazy, and contrary to the variety on offer. Legion Tactics: Night Lords would have to offer some seriously exciting varieties and possibilities compared to, well, every single bluntly defined Chapter Tactic we've see so far, to represent the myriad possibilities of Night Lord warbands. Letting them see a bit in the dark and cause Fear/Morale checks... Well, if that's the Night Lords to you, we'll agree to disagree,

[Brother Heinrich]

 

I'm with Scribe on this one Aaron, I fail to see how the genetic trait gifted to Night Lords via their geneseed and upbringing on the streets of Nostramo/the underhive prisons of Terra does not make it into gameplay and give them Night Vision on the tabletop. That does not seem limiting in the slightest.

 

If the argument is that no set of rules will accurately represent the legion warbands so why try, that's rubbish as well. Do the chapter traits adequately portray all the social nuances and character of each found legion and their successors? No of course not, but they give people the feel of playing White Scars, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, etc. That does not seem like an unreasonable request to me.

 

Because it's useless. It's Chaos Marines with Night Vision. That doesn't mean "Night Lords". That doesn't mean anything.

 

Like I said, don't take shooting down an awful solution as a rousing endorsement for what we currently have. My entire stance on this, as detailed above (and everywhere, frequently) is that there's no easy solution and I'm glad I don't have to think of one.

I don't know man, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. For me it's far less about getting good rules and more about getting rules that represent our fluff. is night vision a game changer? not really, but that's not what it's about. In fact the current and previous codex's both do an outstanding job of homogenizing all chaos marines into one heldrak-y nurgly mess. I'm not asking for the holy grail, be-all-end-all-chaos-codex of supreme glory. Just 9 traits that do a nod of the hat to the traits the old legions had and have passed on to their warbands etc. I'm not talking about tactics or doctrine or cohesion, I'm talking about the genetic makeup of chaos marines who carry that geneseed and exist in that culture. Alpha Legion are still sneaky as hell, Night Lords still strike at night and use terror, Word Bearers are still frothing fanatics, and Iron Warriors are still masters at siege warfare.

 

Yes it's never going to cover every single special little snowflake warband out there, but neither do the chapter tactics cover every single special snowflake chapter out there.

 

EDIT: In the end I would rather see something than nothing, and all we chaos guys have come to expect is a yawning gulf of nothing stretching into infinity.

[A D-B]

Legion traits would make people happy. A lot of people. You don't have to use the trait. But you can. Easy enough. Even if it is just night vision for Night Lords. I've seen this discussion a million times and I know what your saying ADB, but traits would be cool. It wouldn't capture the complete blah blah of this legion and its varied warbands but who cares.

 

 

People who... like the lore? People who like the game? What you're literally saying is we should aim as low as possible and consider it awesome.

[A D-B]

 

 

I'm with Scribe on this one Aaron, I fail to see how the genetic trait gifted to Night Lords via their geneseed and upbringing on the streets of Nostramo/the underhive prisons of Terra does not make it into gameplay and give them Night Vision on the tabletop. That does not seem limiting in the slightest.

 

If the argument is that no set of rules will accurately represent the legion warbands so why try, that's rubbish as well. Do the chapter traits adequately portray all the social nuances and character of each found legion and their successors? No of course not, but they give people the feel of playing White Scars, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, etc. That does not seem like an unreasonable request to me.

 

Because it's useless. It's Chaos Marines with Night Vision. That doesn't mean "Night Lords". That doesn't mean anything.

 

Like I said, don't take shooting down an awful solution as a rousing endorsement for what we currently have. My entire stance on this, as detailed above (and everywhere, frequently) is that there's no easy solution and I'm glad I don't have to think of one.

I don't know man, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. For me it's far less about getting good rules and more about getting rules that represent our fluff.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. That's my position. I can't make it any clearer. Not once have I said anything about wanting good rules, or even mentioning anything being OP or successful on the tabletop. I'm saying a Legion Tactic doesn't "get rules that represent the fluff". It's hard to work out what does, and I'm glad it's not my job. I'd also take it, because we'll all take what we can get at this stage. That doesn't mean it rocks on toast.

 

My position isn't contrary to yours. The people saying I'm arguing against mono-Legion rules are wildly, wildly missing half of what I'm plainly posting and repeating every post. I want distinctive rules for mono-Legion warbands. I just think Legion Tactics: Night Lords is a truly poor way of getting that across, and misses the point.

 

 

 

Yes it's never going to cover every single special little snowflake warband out there

 

I think here's your problem. There's no such thing as "special snowflake warbands". Take any 100 Night Lord warbands, and they're all going to be extremely different. They'll all have that unifying thread of Night Lordness, however. And if you reckon legion Tactics is the only/best way for that? All good. I reckon it sucks, though.

[Brother Heinrich]

What I mean by "Special Snowflake" is that they are all indeed different, but unified by their Night Lordy-ness. So in effect we're saying the same thing? lol. Thats why I feel you give a basis of "Legion Traits" and then let the player's list building reflect the unique nature of his/her warband. I mean correct me if I'm wrong but every single scrap of material from 30k to 40k that I have seen on the Night Lords has described them all as having the ability to see at night and the fact that they use terror tactics in some shape or form. That sounds like a trait to me.

[Scribe]

Is there a case, that Night Lords have additional light sensitivity, or even just psychologically, they have this sensitivity? Your own Novels bare it out, so I'm going to run with 'yes'.

 

Now, take all those 100 Night Lord warbands, some have nothing but tanks, some are corrupted to the warp and back, and some are 'pure' or like to think of themselves as such.

 

Is it beyond the realm of acceptance, that they share a physical or psychological predisposition to darkness? Thats all.

[Dammeron]

If anything, the current system could potentially come closer to representing the true variety and distinction of Chaos Space Marine war bands more than any other; let's assume that we eventually have supplements representing all of the original traitor legions, all of which have specific rules, warlord traits, artifacts etc, as well as a host of supplements for renegade war bands such as The Crimson Slaughter, the Red Corsairs etc; assuming that those supplements are able to ally with "vanilla" Chaos Space Marine armies and/or with one another, the potential combinations and variety would be greater than anything 3.5 or arguably any other Chaos Space Marine army list before has provided, allowing players to take "pure" Iron Warriors or "pure" Black Legion, as well as, say, Black Legion mingled with a little Iron Warrior, or Iron Warrior mingled with a bit of Crimson Slaughter, or Thousand Sons with a bit of Word Bearers, not to mention the variety that allying with Chaos Daemons provides.

 

Chaos may have gotten off to a shaky start in 6th ed, but I definitely think it's on the right track.

[Excessus]

I'm with ADB on the fact that Legion Tactics as a system similar to the one in C:SM would be a bad idea.

 

Though I think there are other ways to make a Legion warband distinct from another Legion's warband, just not by a standard blanket rule across the board like in C:SM. Not all Night Lords have Night Lord geneseed, there will be warbands where none fought at terra or in the heresy...and so on...

[Yogi]

 

Legion traits would make people happy. A lot of people. You don't have to use the trait. But you can. Easy enough. Even if it is just night vision for Night Lords. I've seen this discussion a million times and I know what your saying ADB, but traits would be cool. It wouldn't capture the complete blah blah of this legion and its varied warbands but who cares.

 

 

People who... like the lore? People who like the game? What you're literally saying is we should aim as low as possible and consider it awesome.

 

I love you ADB. But, If in the next codex Chaos Space marines, there were legion traits for each founding legion, people would be happier. You say traits are worthless and lazy but whats on offer now is even worse. 

 

You can't really get much lower then what we have. Hell turkeys and dinobots replacing muh daemons. That ain't chaos. If you disagree with that its of course cool. but I can't agree that traits aren't wanted. They totally are. 

 

Nothing currently implemented is better then traits. There's a reason Chaos players are considered the biggest complainers ever. Because they all want legions. Not a couple of people heaps of them. 

 

Pointlessly it will never happen though. 

[A D-B]

Is there a case, that Night Lords have additional light sensitivity, or even just psychologically, they have this sensitivity? Your own Novels bare it out, so I'm going to run with 'yes'.

 

Now, take all those 100 Night Lord warbands, some have nothing but tanks, some are corrupted to the warp and back, and some are 'pure' or like to think of themselves as such.

 

Is it beyond the realm of acceptance, that they share a physical or psychological predisposition to darkness? Thats all.

 

Yes. Exactly. And my stance is that Legion Tactics: Night Lords isn't a great way of showing that distinctiveness. You keep posting like I'm saying mono-Legion warbands shouldn't be bound by anything at all. I'm saying the opposite. They should be bound as much or as little as they want, but those bindings should be with something less blunt and plain as Legion Tactics.

 

 

What I mean by "Special Snowflake" is that they are all indeed different, but unified by their Night Lordy-ness. So in effect we're saying the same thing? lol. Thats why I feel you give a basis of "Legion Traits" and then let the player's list building reflect the unique nature of his/her warband. I mean correct me if I'm wrong but every single scrap of material from 30k to 40k that I have seen on the Night Lords has described them all as having the ability to see at night and the fact that they use terror tactics in some shape or form. That sounds like a trait to me.

 

We completely agree on the end result. Just not how to get there. I don't know how to get there; that's the be-all and end-all of what I'm saying. A Legion Tactics trait (based on what we know of Chapter tactics) feels like it'd be limiting, overall, and not represent the possibilities as well as it'd represent the unifying thread. 

 

We want the same thing. I just reckon there's a better way than "All Night Lords warbands have Legion Tactics: Night Lords". Unless, like I said, it offers a whole bunch of options and varieties, summing up several facets of Night Lordiness.