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In regards to Aurelius Rex, his last communique was in January. He's alive and well but atm work is the priority.

-This can and should include pre-written material and material specifically crafted for submission.

I think, with the 3,000 word limit, that rules out Destroyer's Hand (and indeed the other stories in the link I brought up). It's definitely 10k+ words so just starting from scratch is probably the best way to go. happy.png

-In regards to artists doing cover art and illustration, to answer Olisredan's concerns, I don't really think it could be considered gratis work in the same way short story submissions wouldn't be considered gratis: They'd be done because they wanted to contribute, or simply create because they liked the idea or were inspired by a story.

If it happens that way then fair enough. Perhaps asking them politely might be the best way to go, should there be no volunteers however.

-We're calling it Fanthology.

The 'B&C Fanthology'. Doesn't sound too bad.

-Back to Olisredan again, I agree that we should have three volumes to keep from having a less focused, possibly bloated giant volume. The split between Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, and Mortals seems to be a good division, although I could see it simply being Astartes and Mortals of either stripe, or being four and having a Traitor Mortals in addition to the other three. Or perhaps a hybrid with two astartes per side and one mortal with both in it.

I think keeping it relatively simple is the way to go - it would hopefully lessen the impact of the work load. Keeping it to two volumes would be more manageable but I fancy the idea of three volumes, if only for the idea of a trilogy.

-To clarify, we're not asking Black Library for this to be a product, but a free download that they could carry which would only help their business. After all, if your fans love you so much that they write your advertisements for you...well...Especially since this hobby is so very much about the fluff and concept, and "forging a narrative", well, a bunch of examples of how awesome GW's player/readerbase is couldn't really go wrong, now, could it?

I doubt that's the way the management will see it. I think they would envision it as an 'opening of the floodgates' - if these fans can get their material hosted on the official website (and by proxy, endorsed) then what's to stop every little group or blog demanding rights to similar favour? GW isn't really known for it's 'caring and sharing' attitude. No profit = No go.

Back to the 'endorsed' statement - if it's on BL then (I would presume) they would dislike the idea that some would treat it as canon even though we're not 'official'. It's inevitable, even if there's a huge disclaimer saying 'THIS IS NOT CANON'. People often miss the disclaimer.

So, the long and short of what I'm trying to say is - I highly doubt BL will touch it with a fifteen foot pole, let alone host it. Sorry. confused.gif

-A submission deadline? Well, we don't even have anything quantified or qualified yet, but my two cents says a couple of months should be fine for a short story. Three at the most.

I'd say, with the 3k word limit, two months should be enough. Theoretically. It's, what, fifty words a day average? That's basically a paragraph.

-As for submission, I agree that the final call should be made by the Moderati, and that there should be a limited number of slots to fill for each book.

If you're looking for final referee's then I suggest approaching any Moderati you have in mind early. This way they can give you the yea or nay and things can move on. Should you get a nay, then you'll still have time to ask other Mods.

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Wow. I can't keep up with this thread either, and I'm on here A LOT these days! Really cool. 


I second the vote for 1,500 or so words. If only to get more in here. It's not much space, but that takes me to my next point.  


One thing we really need to be talking about is how we might organize stuff for workshopping to get things pared down. I think we should choose things based not on how close they are to finished, per se, but based on factors like variety (are we doing only PA loyalist/heretic stuff or are Knights, mechanicum, etc. in the mix?) and cool ideas and concepts. Finding pieces and getting them down to the right length, and workshopping for quality writing (not just proofing for spelling and grammar) are the things that are going to take a long time.


If people enjoy reading fanfic, they can already do that. What we're talking about here is taking some gems and really polishing them up to become something more than just fanfic. With some time and effort, we can consistently take almost any piece of writing and make it great. That's the beauty of workshopping and community, and very often the dividing factors between fan stuff and pro writing are time spent and editing. 

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I suppose that might depend on the over all aim of the project.


Do we want a single, standalone Fanthology that might be revisited again at a later time?

Then I vote that we have a selection that covers the entire spectrum of the site's coverage, Mankind.


Do we intend this to be the first part of a planned trilogy?

Then perhaps a theme would be appropriate. Black Library's own anthology series could be useful as models. Heroes of Fankind, Treacheries of Fankind. Fankind Ascendant.

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I think to fairly represent the whole of this site, (i.e. Mankind), the best thing would be to split it up into three. I like the Heroes of Fankind, Treacheries of Fankind, and Fankind Ascendant idea.


As previously suggested, while two volumes would cover SPEHSS MAHREENS, a third could easily fit in titans, custodes, inquisitors, guardsmen, admech, sororitas, etc.


As far as Black Library goes, I'd agree it's a long shot, but why the heck not? If this actually takes off and is good, a "no" isn't really horrible, it just means we link people to it from other sites and get more traffic.

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So general idea is that the trilogy (thank god we can't slip 'fan' in there and ruin the joke) will be:


1. Heroes of Fankind (working title)

- Covering the Imperial Angels of Death, the Emperor's Space Marines, from their inception as the Legiones Astartes to the thinly held line at end of all time.


2. Treacheries of Fankind (working title)

- Covering the traitor and the renegade, the Chaos Space Marines, from their days of glory through to their days of infamy.


3. Fankind Ascendant (working title)

- Covering the many other aspects of Humanity that the Bolter and Chainsword has grown to encompass. The Adepta Sororitas. The Astra Militarium. The Adeptus Mechanicus. The Titan Legios. The Knight Houses. The Inquisitor Ordos. The Champions, and the Lost. The Blessed, and the Damned.



Is this what everyone seems to be agreeing on?


If we do decide to separate 30k from 40k (or anything prior to the 41st Millennium), then cool. Add the Golden Age of Fankind to the list.


On a side note, I had to add fankind to the auto-corrects 'dictionary' to keep it from wanting to change it to another word that would get me in a lot of trouble if I let it through. But it does make the working titles hilarious.

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Gentleman, you of course realize, if we get this project off the ground, it truly will be our Golden Age of Fankind.


*pauses dramatically at a podium you hadn't quite noticed before to let that sink in*


Anyway, as my last post was written seconds before rushing off to work, there was something Jeff Tibbets pointed out that I wanted to offer up some ideas on. We do, after all, need a solid workshop, with a sort of semi-official staff, I think, of a small number of people who are not part of the peanut gallery and who are not writing stories themselves, to keep things unbiased. Another way to do this would be to have those who are also writing be unable to reject the material of others. While I do intend to write most likely a story per volume to be sure, and I have no intention of playing favorites, I'd rather everything be on the level and would gladly accept this restriction myself.


As for the semi-official staff, I also recommend that we try for Moderati judged tryouts to see who wields the power. Perhaps some sort of application essay describing why you want the position and why you should have it?

This is, of course, not to say that everyone can't help everyone else, but only that there should be some sort of staff to oversee things and make sure everything goes smoothly.

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I'm kind of conflicted.


I have not submitted any fanfiction to be considered, nor will I for this collection. I do have the desire to help and be considered a part of this project, and would be impartial in my judgment. I have taken workshop classes, and have experience helping others with their stories outside of those classes.


But, depending on what you mean by the peanut gallery, it might apply to me. Rowdy heckler? Not me. The inexperienced/untalented majority, as far as writing and providing writing advice goes? Pretty much, yeah.


Not to mention I'm already involved in four/five other B&C-related projects all vying for a piece of my finite amount of free time.


Whether I'm considered part of the 'semiofficial staff' or not, though, I will gladly do what I can to help this project along.




On the subject of Moderators providing the final judgments, we have a pair of Moderators in Aquilanus and Olisredan who I have seen be very active in this department, and I know to have only ever been fair and helpful in their aid to others. They have, however, written pieces that might be considered for a place in the end product.

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1,500 words as the limit?

Darn. I'd planned a big, epic, multi-page-spanning tale with a steadily escalating plot, involving a bunch of Imperial forces, worlds under siege and rebelling, three DIY Chapters (maybe more) a complicated and tight-knit, carefully governed alliance between those Chapters and their duty to guard a dangerous section of space I'd invented.

In short, 1,500 words is just about enough to describe the context. sweat.gif

On second thoughts I'll just do something simpler.laugh.png

I can write up my bigger story afterwards, anyway.

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I'd say 3,000 words wouldn't be too bad. You never now, we might need the extra beef. It's always possible that we won't have enough applicants, and so stories might need to be larger or authors might need to do more than one story.

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You could also write it as a preview to your fully planned story. A self-contained introduction that serves to entice readers to explore the subforum itself to read the whole thing.
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I'd say 3,000 words wouldn't be too bad. You never now, we might need the extra beef. It's always possible that we won't have enough applicants, and so stories might need to be larger or authors might need to do more than one story.

Well, I'll try and stick to 1,500 to start with.

It's always easier to expand a story than cut bits out, after all.

You could also write it as a preview to your fully planned story. A self-contained introduction that serves to entice readers to explore the subforum itself to read the whole thing.

Ah, now that I can do.biggrin.png

I'll think up a way to get some of the pieces in place for the larger tale, just as soon as I've had some sleep.laugh.png

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1500 words? Hmm. A weekend should prove reasonable time if I manage to decide on a story direction. Editing might take slightly longer though. I'll see what I can do this week. :)

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Olisredan, who would you recommend I contact about having one or two mods judge who the semi-official staff should be?

Well, aside from volunteering personally I would concur with Cormac - Aquilanus is an active writer here and likely has experience in reading and perhaps assessing written work. I trust that he can find suitable candidates for the 'staff' (or even be part of it if necessary). Perhaps speaking to Strike Captain Lysimachus might also be a good idea seeing as he's offered to proof-read already.
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As for the word count, I do agree that we can allow it to be increased if we feel that we are better served expanding the chosen stories, whichever they may be, if we run into a situation where there are no more that meet the standards of our judge(s) and we are in need of more bulk.


If we find ourselves too low, we can also scrap the other fanthologies in favor of a single, broadened volume. But I do not believe that will be the case. These can just be agreed upon contingencies so that we don't stumble if it happen.

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Some sanity checks are in order. We're all getting swept up in the excitement of the idea, but we need to keep the challenges in mind as those will have more of an impact on whether or not this actually works. This is a great project idea, so it's important to get this stuff right if we want to succeed (and I can tell you that I would definitely like this project to succeed). Some of these may have been covered already, but I'm going to hit them now so that we're all clear on the subject.

First, asking the Black Library to host the end-products is a pipe dream. Black Library will view this kind of work as unsolicited and, as has been covered, such a move would open the floodgates to similar products from anyone and everyone. We can discard this idea.

Second, asking Black Library authors to participate in any manner is a waste of time. These members may have an intense interest in such a project, but their contractual obligations will preclude them from participating. They might even be prohibited from endorsing such a project (even if they really really like it and have lots of ideas about how we might do it). Even asking them would be putting them in a very difficult position; and even though they would probably decline very politely (even possibly offering up a morsel of two of advice), we should not impose upon them in this way. Let them volunteer what they can, but don't approach them on the issue.

This is actually a great project, and it can run as long as it is able to be sustained. We've somehow decided that it will be limited to three volumes. We need no such limit. This kind of project can be an enduring project here at the B&C, developing and "publishing" fan fiction for as long as we have both authors willing to write stories and workers able to edit and publish. Since the Black Library option is closed to us (it was never really open), there's no reason we can't present the works here via our downloads. And the admin/mod team is actually very keen to see this kind of thing happen. Very keen.

Realistically, an initial three-issue run isn't a bad idea, but we can definitely sustain this project far longer. The initial run can be used to refine concepts and methodologies (though refinement will actually take place over the entire life cycle of the project).

We can present the collected works in two formats (and this isn't an either/or thing - we can do both at different times). First, we can include fan fiction in larger works, with those larger works including a variety of other things (basically, a B&C e-zine that includes rules, batreps, background, fiction, models, whatever). Second, we can collect fan fiction into anthologies that are dedicated solely to fan fiction. And we can do both over and over, all under the Legio Imprint. For the sake of further discussion, I'll simply refer to each collection as an "issue."

I think it's pretty safe to say that there will be no shortage of prospective authors that are interested in writing fiction.

The challenge is going to be in building up a dedicated support staff. Without the people behind the scenes, the project will flounder. We can't pick people, either. We need volunteers. Nobody will be doing this with any compensation, so volunteers that have a personal interest in supporting the project are essential - otherwise everything will just fall apart. Those volunteers are going to be the limiting aspects, and they'll also largely drive how things happen based on what they are able to do and interested (or not interested) in doing.

The basic methodologies and requirements might actually vary from issue to issue, and we're not really tied to a single format for each issue. For example, a single issue might include one or two very large works while having multiple shorter works (and those might be of varying sizes).

Something else to consider is the mechanics behind submissions. If the submission process is iterative, with an author posting work that can be viewed by everyone as it goes through the editing process, there is likely to be diminished interest in reading the actual end-product as too many people will have read the various works prior to them ever being "published." Interest in reading the end-product can really only be generated/maintained if the submission/editing process is secret. We used to have that functionality with the old Librarium, but that is gone, so we would have to utilize an alternate mechanic (which is easily do-able, but would use slightly different mechanics). I think that a private submission process will work best, with submissions e-mailed or PMed to the workers and editing discussion taking place privately. I can make this happen quite easily (it's good to be an admin msn-wink.gif ).

Site Support

I'm going to create a forum for this project in the Special Projects forum. This forum will be the vehicle by which further discussion takes place, including solicitation of works (both fiction and art), description of themes, min/max word counts, etc.

Then we need to identify the workers (not authors) that are needed to make this happen, with roles and responsibilities clearly identified. We'll need volunteers to do the work, so they'll need a clear picture of what they're signing up for before they're going to volunteer. Once each of the positions has been filled (and there's no real maximum limit for the positions, except that we want to avoid having too many cooks in the kitchen), then we can kick off with the actual project. The workers (or a sub-set of them) can make the final determination on how things will run since it's their time and effort that is the real limiting factor.

The B&C will gladly make each issue available for storage and download as part of the Legio Imprint.

If the project continues beyond the initial three issues that are envisioned, the B&C will provide support in perpetuity (as long as it works effectively). The workers can vary from issue to issue, though we will want some basic methodologies to remain constant just so that we're not reinventing the wheel each time.

Member Support

We'll need members that are interested in contributing work (I doubt this is going to be a problem). Art is easy - if we don't have actual "art" we can always use pictures of miniatures (whether submitted directly or chosen from the PCA forums). As I mentioned before, I don't see any problem with a shortage of authors.

The key thing is having workers that make it happen, especially the initial batch. This is where the really difficult work resides as these members will be responsible for a number of things (and different workers may have different responsibilities). No issue is possible unless there will be sufficient workers to make it happen. I actually foresee having a regular stable of workers forming a core that works on each issue (and some of these are going to change over time) with guest workers on each issue (and some of these guest workers may actually fill key positions).

Now I haven't covered the actual submission process. I'm not going to even attempt to dictate submission requirements because I think that different submission requirements serve different purposes and it is really up to the workers to decide. I've seen previous "contests" where BL provided themes and then required prospective authors to submit a synopsis and short sample that would be reviewed by BL staff; and if selected the story would be further developed by the prospective author to reach the full length desired (with an editing process). I've also seen sites where the complete story is submitted in draft form, and then edited/revised (my wife does this professionally for self-published authors). Word counts can vary and, as I mentioned, don't have to be identical for each story in a single issue. Variety is nice, so having a submission/selection process would allow the (key) workers to ensure that the collection of stories features different concepts/perspectives/settings/etc.

It's very easy to be excited about this kind of project because it is a Very Good Idea. We can't let our excitement take control, however, as the logistics behind making this kind of thing happen are actually complex. If we don't hammer out a supportable and sustainable process, we'll fail. I'm definitely interested in the project from three perspectives. First, as an aspiring author, I'd love to contribute work to the project. Second, as a hobbyist, I'd be interested in helping with the work side of the house (obviously, I wouldn't work on issues to which I contribute). Third, as an admin, I want to see this succeed so that we can all enjoy the hobby.

Look for a dedicated forum for this project soon. It will be led by the Moderati as a whole. Once we have workers, they'll be provided with a work space. I will move this discussion into that forum at that time.

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Yeesh, sometimes I hate how easy it is to accidentally switch from the mobile site to the main site, because doing so will eat your post entirely. Ah well.


Brother Tyler, the dose of sanity is appreciated.


As for the Black Library authors, since I mentioned them and you might be referring to that, I did not mean as an inclusion to the project, to the fanthology. I was meaning it like a sequel of sorts to the interview in the last Legio Imprint, perhaps covering the other author this forum is blessed with. I brought it up as something we could do to add to the Legio Imprint more than just the fanthology, like you mention as a 'larger works.' So, two separate, unrelated things that highlight the greatness of our community in different ways. Since there already was one, I thought it within the realm of possibility that there could be another.


If you knew that already when you said it would be a waste of time, for all or any of the reasons you listed, then fair enough. If you were not referring to what I said, then also fair enough.


'Course, it's all a moot point if any of these vaunted authors are unwilling or unable.

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Brother Tyler, thank you. I was concerned that this would become disorganized but I see that you'll keep it on track. I'd like to volunteer my services as an editor on this project. Not a proofreader, but someone who can help the writers polish and refine these. I have applicable experience in the fired and I'd take the role quite seriously. I hope all of our writers can handle some tough love. Writing for others isn't always easy.
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