Tactica : Nephilim

[Chaplain Lucifer]

This thread will be used to brainstorm a Nephilim tactica based on opinions, experiences and this: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286261-lucifers-underdogs-bi-monthly-challenge/ thread.

 

There will be no place for rants, comparisons and other OT stuff. The objective is to try and give the community the maximum support for those that wish to play the Nephilim.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The Nephilim Tactica v1.0

 

Contrary to belief, the nephilim is not a primary anti-air asset for DA. It can function as such, but it's main focus is support for the troops on the ground, especially on an anti-infantry role.

 

This tactica will try to focus on getting the best out of the Nephilim in varied scenarios.

 

Overview

The Nephilim is equiped with 6 Blacksword missiles and a twin heavy bolter. It can mount a twin lascannon or an Avenger bolter.

 

Operation

Since it's main specialization is ground targets the Avenger bolter takes more advantage of the +1 BS perk of the vehicle. Given the restriction of 4 weapons per turn, firing at ground targets will give you 10 BS5 shots for 3 turns (5 Avenger, 3 HB and 2 Missiles)that can be directed at infantry and/or light vehicles. This setup is the most recomended for those that do not know their opponents in advance. If you have knowledgeof your opponent then it can be useful to switch to the twin lascannon if you know that you're facing more and/or heavier armour.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I will kick off this by analyzing some of the underdogs challenge results:

Seems the most ubiquitous weapon is the twin lascannon altough the AMB is still capable of good results even against armour. I would say if you're going "blind" to a game the first choice would be the TLLC, if you know your opponent then the AMB is a good choice if he has many infantry and light vehicles.

 

Another conclusion drawn (and not only from the tactica) is that the Nephilim can be of use as anti-flyer but that not his role. His role is more of a scalpel, kept in reserve and attacking that unit or vehicle that your army is unable to deal with because it doesn't have either range or LOS or both.

[Biggabertha]

I'd like to point out the "Unrelenting Hunter" rule where you can immobilise an opponent's vehicle rather than destroying its weapon. APCs that have yet to disgorge their payload or other vehicles that need to get around (and can't afford to be immobilised) can really get annoying after turn 2. I don't remember which one it was exactly but there are some vehicles that if they're immobilised, they just immediately crash - and you can really get that with either the Avenger Mega Bolter or the Twin Linked Lascannon, depending on what you're aiming at.

 

Remembering to shoot all the available weapons per turn is another oversight - those missiles may be a little lacklustre but they can be pretty annoying to get a "free" hit with.

[Master Avoghai]

Seems the most ubiquitous weapon is the twin lascannon altough the AMB is still capable of good results even against armour. I would say if you're going "blind" to a game the first choice would be the TLLC, if you know your opponent then the AMB is a good choice if he has many infantry and light vehicles.

It's funny because I think the exact contrary.

 

To me, the most ubiquitous weapon is the AMB.

 

This weapon is perfect to harass and saturate infantry as well as light vehicles. With the strafing run rules, you can expect 3HB hits + 5 AMB hits + 2 missiles hits = 10 high S hits.

Enough to remove several HP on light vehicles or force well protected units to fail their save rolls.

 

Against one of the worst unit type of the game (the FMC), it's perfect to force a FMC to crash test AND several armour saves.

 

The only use I see for TLLC is against drakes. Because of the it will not die special rules you WANT to cause a penetrating hit. Either to break the weapon or to make it explode (5+).

 

If Iknow I play against chaos I'll use the TLLC. In an all comer list I rather use the AMB

[Brother dean]

I concur.  If I had brought the AMB I would have concentrated on infantry and rhinos from the beginning and could have thinned  the herd of 4 Grey hunter squads enough to maybe take some objectives.  If you are bringing the lascannon to pop vehicles then you are likely going to be wasting the HB and missiles or at least the HB which can ONLY pop rhinos and other low AV 10 targets.

 

Regardless of what the fluff says, this is a ground attack fighter that has bonuses against ground targets but has absolutely zero bonuses against flying targets.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Well, that's why we need cooperation on this one. ;) Judging by the games the TLLC was the most used but I  can see the wisdom on whart you guys say. :)

[Brother dean]

I just know that by taking shots at the AV13 Knight front facing I threw away all my shots from the rest of the weapon systems...  I had enough meltas on the ground during the second game that I didnt need the AT of the lascannon.  If I had taken the AMB I would have been forced to shoot at units that the rest of the loadout actually would have been useful against.

 

It's still a choice but you have to understand what you might be throwing away by taking the Las.

[Master Avoghai]

Actually I've used both :

1st game against ork with AMB

2nd game against Nids/guards with TLLC

 

I wish I had the AMB against the hive tyrant because statistically I could expect 4 hits of AMB and 2save rolls... In conjunction with the missile and heavy bolters it can be enough to kill him.

With the TLLC, I secure the hit (more or less), and the W (2+) but I cannot expect more than one... And he can choose to escape and get a 5+ save...

 

I'm really for saturation on this kind of target rather than high AP hits...

[FlamingDeth]

In general I favor the lascannon, as marines have all sorts of tools for taking out infantry that are a lot cheaper and more spammable. The lascannon on the other hand gives you a high strength just about anywhere, which can generally get side armor on vehicles that aren't near the flanks, or taking out that IC that they thought was safely out of LoS. It's also far better at damaging walkers, and it makes me giggle every time a dual flamer ironclad gets to sit and watch for the rest of the battle. The fact that its better at oneshotting fliers is a bonus too, not just drakes but stormravens as well, and is one of the only sources of sky fire in our codex is a bonus.

[SvenONE]

I will say from the looks of the monthly challenge, while it looks like the Neph has been performing OK, I haven't seen any game-changing or game-winning plays by it. Then again I haven't read in a few days. I think this is due to the TLLC people are taking. That said, when it comes to Tactica with the Nephilim it starts at your list building phase.

Where does the Neph fit in your list:
If you're bringing this thing and spending the points it's got to be filling a role [i know you said no bitching Luci but the thing costs too much!]. I think one of the biggest counters to this thing is if your opponent has a low number of vehicles, or a low number of vehicles that are largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things (drop pods, rhinos, etc). I guess it's a decent MC hunter, but it's got a good chance of overshooting a target the following turn.

Let's not forget this is a coveted FA slot, something we're good at. So in cases where you are running Sammael and RW as troops, you're spending a LOT of points on troops, which leaves slim space for the FA slot. BUT, it allows a few of your bikes to roll with flamers instead of meltaguns since your Neph is on Vehicle hunting duty, or you're now able to give your sarges wargear to make them more effective when tarpitting/weakening infantry units.

In non RW situations you'll most likely be in GW setup, and I think you'll still need Las Devs since you're going to lack the mobile options of AV or Anti-MC without melta bikes. Landspeeder support squadrons with multi-meltas feel like a mobile enough and durable enough unit to assist that extra shot when the Neph flies over. I normally wouldn't suggest it because it's too risky, but a 3 man 2x melta bike squad starting in reserve may also be able to assist with this (multi melta LS cheaper though).

I honestly can't see this fitting into any list that features Deathwing, I think you are handicapping yourself with all the points you're spending.

As a final note, quite honestly unless you KNOW you are playing against an army that naturally fields a lot of vehicles I wouldn't bring it. Necrons, Dark Eldar, Eldar, IG are great candidate armies to go with a Neph. Tyranids to a lesser degree only because you want the best chance to ground and wound those Flying MCs. I don't think they'll be great against Space Marines/Chaos they should be able to find something they can destroy. I know people say they are great against Heldrakes, and I think that's true -- but I don't know about you guys but I've seen so few of these in the last few months, and I know I haven't seen one in my shop since at least September 2013 (I am in there 2x a week). I'd rather see a Neph take out a Maulerfiend or a Defiler. Orks and Tau don't really seem like great matchups for a Neph. I don't think the Neph lends itself to a TAC list because it's too expensive to bring out only to see your opponent bringing out cheap junk vehicles like a rhino or a venom or even no vehicles at all. While it can easily kill those cheap vehicles, it's like bringing a jackhammer to your refrigerator.

AMB vs TL-LC
Personally I think the TL-LC limits it's role. Unrelenting Hunter looks ok, but quite honestly I'd rather see weapons destroyed over a immobilize. The only thing I'd ever like to see immobilized is either a Maulerfiend or a Landraider full of terminators. In either case, when either of those things are immobilized they are going to be getting at least 12" of movement before I immobilize it. Btw, just to PEN against AV14 we're talking a .17 probability. Twin Linking on 5s isn't really a whole lot different than TL on 4s, so I think Strafing run is a little bit of a waste -- it's a marginal gain. Heavy Bolter and Blackswords are also kinda useless against high AV so you're way overpaying for a lascannon that can fly (they already have 48" range!!).

I think the AMB gives better value like others have said. We're talking 5 BS5 shots of high strength that will kill most Xenos, it can hit most fliers as well and you've got a small chance to pen against AV11 which can then still enjoy unrelenting hunter. Then factor in heavy bolters and blackswords all on BS5. It's a way better Infantry/MC hunter than the TL-LC one now, I'd take this variant against Bugs. I don't mind the AP4 when I'm putting out 10 S6 shots at BS5 per turn against ground targets, some of which are twinlinked. My marines have been killed plenty of times by splinter rifles with or Tesla due to failed armor saves. The more chances you're giving your opponent to roll to save themselves, the more chances they have to fail. To totally editorialize, I don't see how anyone even entertains the idea of the TL-LC when the most benefit of it's rules come from the AMB setup.

How it'll handle on the battlefield:
Like any other flier you just want to make sure you are thinking 2 turns ahead, coming in at a sharp angle to maximize on that 45 degrees. If you're running the TL-LC there's really not many choices you can have to yourself. The worst thing you can do is try and snipe an IC unit when there's a vehicle who is going to rip you up in 2 turns. Don't be afraid to fly it off the board if it means a better shot next turn.

The AMB functions the same way you just change your targets to infantry. Only problem is it can't hover like a stormtalon gunship, but it'll still be good. Let it support your troops to either finish off that squad you don't want to waste a salvo shot on or weaken up a tougher unit like Wraiths, Paladins, Warriors etc.

Overall it's kind of like DWKs. People poo poo on them I think because everyone is comparing units to how it plays against MEQs, but this is a Xenos edition of the game. AP4 is the new AP3!!

 

Edit: Formatting

[Isiah]

Nice write up SvenONE :tu:

 

Cheers

I

[Varizel]

That is a nice write up SvenONE. If you don't mind though, i will argue some of your points as to open up more discussions on this underused (due to good reason ) unit.

I will talk about the TL LC and how i view it as a superior option to AMB.

Let's not forget this is a coveted FA slot, something we're good at. So in cases where you are running Sammael and RW as troops, you're spending a LOT of points on troops, which leaves slim space for the FA slot. BUT, it allows a few of your bikes to roll with flamers instead of meltaguns since your Neph is on Vehicle hunting duty, or you're now able to give your sarges wargear to make them more effective when tarpitting/weakening infantry units.

On a Ravenwing List, Your FA Slot, which contains alot of good units actually, won't be used that often. You will use it for Black Knights, Dark Shrouds or maybe LS Squadrons. LS Squadrons honestly i don't see the point on taking for a RW List. I'll take the Typhoon/Tornadoes from my RAS. Target Saturations and splitting shots if needed. RW List too, most of the time takes the BoDevs. I saw a few takes the RW Banner just fo the HnR, but most of the time it is the BoDevs for extreme shooty killiness. At that point it's really moot on taking AMB Equipped Nephilim since Dark Talons benefited much more from the BoDevs. No... what you need at that point is an AA, since RW is pretty weak against flyers especially Heldrake. Nephilim is supposed to fill that spot. You can say that you can use Black Knights and shoot it in the back. Don't work that much most of the time in my meta. Who gonna exposed the rear like that even on flyers? Who not gonna kill your Black Knight first and foremost since most of the time your BK carrying the banner anyway as a command squad? Against FMC? normal bikes will kill it with volume of shots.

In non RW situations you'll most likely be in GW setup, and I think you'll still need Las Devs since you're going to lack the mobile options of AV or Anti-MC without melta bikes. Landspeeder support squadrons with multi-meltas feel like a mobile enough and durable enough unit to assist that extra shot when the Neph flies over. I normally wouldn't suggest it because it's too risky, but a 3 man 2x melta bike squad starting in reserve may also be able to assist with this (multi melta LS cheaper though).

On a GW List, you take LS Squadron maybe. BK maybe... but otherwise FA is unused. Besides GW don't lack any options of AV. They are more concerned with maybe AA. Usually peeps take an aegis. To compliment the aegis defense line, you prob need a Divination Devs with Lascannon to get 1 HIT most of the time against flyers. Which is about the same odd as taking a Nephilim with TL LC in terms of hits.

I honestly can't see this fitting into any list that features Deathwing, I think you are handicapping yourself with all the points you're spending.

For DW list... as you said... i don't see how it fits. I totally agree . Someone might want to enlightened us on this situation.

Personally I think the TL-LC limits it's role. Unrelenting Hunter looks ok, but quite honestly I'd rather see weapons destroyed over a immobilize. The only thing I'd ever like to see immobilized is either a Maulerfiend or a Landraider full of terminators. In either case, when either of those things are immobilized they are going to be getting at least 12" of movement before I immobilize it. Btw, just to PEN against AV14 we're talking a .17 probability. Twin Linking on 5s isn't really a whole lot different than TL on 4s, so I think Strafing run is a little bit of a waste -- it's a marginal gain. Heavy Bolter and Blackswords are also kinda useless against high AV so you're way overpaying for a lascannon that can fly (they already have 48" range!!).



I think the AMB gives better value like others have said. We're talking 5 BS5 shots of high strength that will kill most Xenos, it can hit most fliers as well and you've got a small chance to pen against AV11 which can then still enjoy unrelenting hunter. Then factor in heavy bolters and blackswords all on BS5. It's a way better Infantry/MC hunter than the TL-LC one now, I'd take this variant against Bugs. I don't mind the AP4 when I'm putting out 10 S6 shots at BS5 per turn against ground targets, some of which are twinlinked. My marines have been killed plenty of times by splinter rifles with or Tesla due to failed armor saves. The more chances you're giving your opponent to roll to save themselves, the more chances they have to fail. To totally editorialize, I don't see how anyone even entertains the idea of the TL-LC when the most benefit of it's rules come from the AMB setup.

For TL-LC and AMB argument, i will have to say that AMB as a matter of fact is the one that limits your nephilim. With AMB you definitely can't shoot AV13.... and AV14. Let's be fair, with 1 shot Lascannon, i won't be shooting that LR/Monolith unless i'm out of options anyway, so let's scratch that AV14 and just count the AV13. AV13 with Unrelenting Hunter will get you some results. AMB won't even dent AV13. Against maulerfiend, Ironclad Dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought, Wave Serpents, and others... immobilize is a much much better option than weapon destroyed. As a matter of fact, i would say that weapon destroyed only benefits against one weapon vehicles. Even on a Trilas Pred, having it immobilized, you create a blind spot for his tank that you can benefit from. Not only that, on another roll of immobilized that tank is gone. Of course i would prefer that the tank straight up destroyed but luck can be a harsh master . Of course plenty of shots can take down AV12... but statistically speaking... out of 5 Str 6 Shots against AV12.... you prob only dealing 1 Glancing shot and that's MAYBE.... compared to Lascannon where you are 50 50 penetrating it and 2/3 glancing it.... and if u roll 3+ on pen table, the magic happens.

That's the other point i want to bring up too. Unrelenting Hunter.... I think it is downplayed alot. Unrelenting Hunter rules shine when u have a lot of weapons capable of penetrating vehicles and achieving immobilize+ results.

Contrary to what you said... that most of the rules if NOT all, benefitted the LC more than it is AMB due to LC capable of making use of ALL its rules, all the time, compared to AMB that cannot utilize the Unrelenting Hunter rule that often.

Which brings up the point on what you gonna use AMB for?

Light transport? LC takes care of that complimented by the HB and BS Missiles.

Infantries? Why are we using this expensive unit to gun down some infantries unless we're out of options? on a BoDevs list, it is almost always better to take dark talons if you want to take flyers for AI role. Admittedly though... it is fun to shove 8ish wounds to an opponent, It is much better though to shove that 24 TL Bolters dice .

FMC? Depending on what FMC here... if it's Harpy or Hive Crone, i will say AMB rules. Against Hive Tyrant? hmm.... what? 1-2 wounds from JUST the AMB--all savable, compared to an almost guaranteed 1 wound from a LC, non savable unless he jinks? LC wins... hands down in that scenario. Against Daemon Prince with Power Armor.... LC wins too. Against DP without Power Armor.. yeah... AMB takes it. Honestly, the FMC i saw the most are the HT and DP with PA... LC won most of the time.

Against Normal MC? AMB will hit what? 4-5? most of the time? 2 wounds? all savable on a 3+? compared to LC? 1 wound cover save only? LC is better too in this case.

And to finish it off... since Neph can't hover, as you stated in your post, it is really hard to get a bead on an opponent and keep pounding on that unit. Neph works more of an opportunity takers, in which LC is better suited most of the time because you will be using it to snipe/scalpel on important units.... and you better make that shot counts.

Like any other flier you just want to make sure you are thinking 2 turns ahead, coming in at a sharp angle to maximize on that 45 degrees. If you're running the TL-LC there's really not many choices you can have to yourself. The worst thing you can do is try and snipe an IC unit when there's a vehicle who is going to rip you up in 2 turns. Don't be afraid to fly it off the board if it means a better shot next turn

This... i wholeheartedly agree with this. As for targets, there's always a target worthy of a Lascannon to the face .

My 2 cents. I'm sorry if my reply seems offensive. I am by no means am trying to insult you. I'm just presenting a counter argument to your post. Feel free to rip apart my arguments. I am basing it on my experience which is limited. Hoping with this tactica it can expand my view on the units more. Cheers.

[Isiah]

Can I ask what 'BoDevs' are?

[Master Avoghai]

Can I ask what 'BoDevs' are?

I assume "Banner Of Devastation"

[FlamingDeth]

I'm guessing banner of devastation lists.

[Varizel]

Can I ask what 'BoDevs' are?

 

Banner of Devastation, just like Master Avoghai and CardinalVirtue said.

 

Sorry for the acronyms. 

[Isiah]

Ok thanks.

[Master Avoghai]

Against Hive Tyrant? hmm.... what? 1-2 wounds from JUST the AMB--all savable, compared to an almost guaranteed 1 wound from a LC, non savable unless he jinks? LC wins... hands down in that scenario. Against Daemon Prince with Power Armor.... LC wins too.

Let me totally disagree with that.

 

If you make 2W against a Tyrant or a DP with 3+ save, statistically it's, 4/9 chances to NOT wound him. And of course, the more you get wounds, the more chances he has to fails (as well as to fail several).

In real life, I rarely see a FMC without an inv save. Meaning :

-That he may save the Lascannon shot too

-You cannot expect at all making him lose more than 1 wound.

 

So I encourage you making the total stats (shoot+wound+save) of a AMB volley vs a TLLC shoots, you'll see that the stats is in favor of the AMB (0.66 to obtain at least one unsaved W vs 0.47... Stats made with a 5+ inv save, I let you imagine a chaos DP with a 4+...)

 

Like I've said, I only see a use of the TLLC against drake because making a penetrating hit will mean being able either to destroy the annoying weapon (hence making unrelenting hunter unuseful) or make it explode so that he doesn't have a chance to recover his HP.

[shabbadoo]

How it'll handle on the battlefield:

 

The AMB functions the same way you just change your targets to infantry. Only problem is it can't hover like a stormtalon gunship,...

Hover has nothing to do with a weapon's usefulness, only the vehicle's maneuverability.  The Nephilim has the Strafing Run rule, meaning most of its targets will be shot at with BS 5, and the not-Hovering Nephilim will also not count as a WS 1 Skimmer, which can be all too easily slapped out of the air by way too many things in the game that can get into close combat range of it.   It is a good thing that the Nephilim can come screaming in and hammer the enemy with BS 5 shots, not be able to be assaulted, only be hit on 6's by most shooting attacks, and still have the option to Evade as well.  10 shots per turn at BS 5 (7 of them at Str 6, AP 4; 3 of them Str 5 AP 4 and twin-linked) is not too shabby.

 

For anti- air I take the TLLC though.  Just too big a fan of being able to punch light/medium armor and also get +1 on the damage roll for the AP 2.

[SvenONE]

Varizel, no offense taken on your points, you offer a good counter to the other role of the Neph -- the vehicle hunter.  I just think given how our codex plays, vehicle hunting isn't something we struggle with though.

 

Edited: to stay in the spirit of the discussion.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

For reference, this is a tactica, so there are no reasons to not to take a Nephilim. If people read this it's because they already made their mind and want to use it to the best extent. And that's the point of this thread: You have a Nephilim and you want to use it so it can do it's best.

[JeffJedi]

Very interesting points. I don't yet have a Nephilim and had only considered the Lascannons, but great points are made for the AMB here.

[Brother Turok]

I have used my Nephilim fighter in almost every game of 6th I've played for that much needed AA support.  I have always preferred the TLLC as it practically always wounds a MC or destroys a hull point (and can still ground something with an inv. save).  These past few games I forgot to bring my TLLC bit as I had the magnatized AMB attached (looks cooler displayed wit the AMB). 

 

My opponent loves tyranid flying MC's... he ran two flying tyrants and two crones this past game.  My three devastator squads had their hands full with their AA missiles, causing one or two wounds here and there.  My Nephilim arrived on turn two and completely toasted one Crone... in one volley of the heavy bolters, missiles, and AMB!!  It was destroyed on the next turn to the two flying tyrants with a billion twin linked shots, but she made me proud taking out that crone.

 

40k is a numbers game and I almost prefer the AMB now due to the number of wounds/saving throws that one can cause (even if savable).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I made a short resume in post #2 to later expand.