Primarch 1 on 1 tabletop tournament: How do they stack up?

[helterskelter]

I'm assuming here, but I'm thinking the best way to kill a primarch is a disturbing amount of firepower?

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The problem with Primarchs like Mortarion, Dorn, and Perturabo w/ Forgebreaker is... they have Unwieldy. So you have a Primarch hitting at Initiative 1. Kind of gimps them, IMO.

 

I don't really agree.  With their high toughness, saves, and EW, they aren't going to die easily to a mass of tac marines, and they'll strike simul with the threatening stuff (a bunch of terminators with powerfists).  In a duel, I don't think any of the Primarchs has the damage output for a one turn kill on another.  So, let's do a lore matchup - Fulgrim vs Ferrus.  We know how it turns out in the fluff, how does it turn out on the tabletop?

 

Fulgrim strikes first with blinding speed at I8, and receives 3 bonus attacks for his Sublime Swordsman rule.  With a total of 8 attacks, he hits with 5.333 of them, and then wounds with 1.777 of them.  Ferrus will save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.792 wounds get through.

 

Assuming he still has Forgebreaker, he strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting with 2 and wounding with 1.666 of them.  Fulgrim will similarly save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.555 get through.  If Ferrus must fight with his bare hands, he is left with only 1.333 wounds and Fulgrim only fails to save 0.444 wounds.

 

As for imponderables... if Ferrus is especially unlucky, Fulgrim will pass one of his saves with a 6, and then Ferrus will fail his Initiative test (by rolling a 6), leaving him blinded.  The chances of that happening in any given assault phase a pretty miniscule.  However, if Fulgrim fails any of his armor sauves against Ferrus while Ferrus is wielding Forgebreaker, Fulgrim will not only strike second in the next round of combat but he will lose the extra attacks from Sublime Swordsman.  Approximately halving his damage output gives the edge to Ferrus, but you could really only expect this to happen half the time - you could probably even it out by thinking of Fulgrim's output as being 1/4 lower, at 0.594-ish wounds per turn.  Overall, things look like they will turn out exactly as they did in the lore - Ferrus is an artisan, not a fighter.

Fulgrim only gets one round of additional attacks from Sublime swordsmen vs Ferrus with Forgebreaker. Forgebreaker had strikedown as well as concussive, the former kicks in in successful saves as well as unsaved wounds to halve Fulgrim's initiative. So odds on every turn Ferrus is keeping Fulgrim's I at at least 4, and so swings first, when I rolled this match up when I first got Massacre, Ferrus always won, it cam down to his wounding on 2s and hitting first most of the time, while Fulgrim needs 5s.

 

Have

you factored in Strikedown? Very important as it needs Fulgrims

initiative. Also, the Servo Arm gives him 5 attacks. So, assuming strike

down every round, Ferrus will attack before Fulgrim, then do a Servo

Arm attack at I1

While you're right about Strikedown, you're wrong about the servo arm, it's just another weapon. So if you subscribe to the rules interpretation that a Specialist Weapon can grant +1A to a model using a non-Specialist weapon to attack, then Ferrus has 5 attacks at his normal I, otherwise the arm is only good for repairs, or giving Ferrus AP1 if he doesn't have Forgebreaker (unless they've added rules for hius metal hands somewhere I haven't seen).

 

Edited for formatting.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Sublime swordsmen gives Fulgrim extra attacks based on initiative difference, he dosent have to have higher I to gain the bonus. In fact, he gets more attacks being I1 against Ferrus than he does at I8.

[Moonstalker]

 

 

The problem with Primarchs like Mortarion, Dorn, and Perturabo w/ Forgebreaker is... they have Unwieldy. So you have a Primarch hitting at Initiative 1. Kind of gimps them, IMO.

 

I don't really agree.  With their high toughness, saves, and EW, they aren't going to die easily to a mass of tac marines, and they'll strike simul with the threatening stuff (a bunch of terminators with powerfists).  In a duel, I don't think any of the Primarchs has the damage output for a one turn kill on another.  So, let's do a lore matchup - Fulgrim vs Ferrus.  We know how it turns out in the fluff, how does it turn out on the tabletop?

 

Fulgrim strikes first with blinding speed at I8, and receives 3 bonus attacks for his Sublime Swordsman rule.  With a total of 8 attacks, he hits with 5.333 of them, and then wounds with 1.777 of them.  Ferrus will save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.792 wounds get through.

 

Assuming he still has Forgebreaker, he strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting with 2 and wounding with 1.666 of them.  Fulgrim will similarly save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.555 get through.  If Ferrus must fight with his bare hands, he is left with only 1.333 wounds and Fulgrim only fails to save 0.444 wounds.

 

As for imponderables... if Ferrus is especially unlucky, Fulgrim will pass one of his saves with a 6, and then Ferrus will fail his Initiative test (by rolling a 6), leaving him blinded.  The chances of that happening in any given assault phase a pretty miniscule.  However, if Fulgrim fails any of his armor sauves against Ferrus while Ferrus is wielding Forgebreaker, Fulgrim will not only strike second in the next round of combat but he will lose the extra attacks from Sublime Swordsman.  Approximately halving his damage output gives the edge to Ferrus, but you could really only expect this to happen half the time - you could probably even it out by thinking of Fulgrim's output as being 1/4 lower, at 0.594-ish wounds per turn.  Overall, things look like they will turn out exactly as they did in the lore - Ferrus is an artisan, not a fighter.

Have you factored in Strikedown? Very important as it needs Fulgrims initiative. Also, the Servo Arm gives him 5 attacks. So, assuming strike down every round, Ferrus will attack before Fulgrim, then do a Servo Arm attack at I1

 

Half of the last paragraph there deals with strikedown and its effects.  I did not account for the servo arm, however.  With it, Fulgrim can expect another 1 S8 AP2 attack at I1, hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's.  So, 0.5 hits, 0.416 wounds, and another 0.138 wounds through Fulgrim's invul.  That pushes Fulgrim's wounds per turn while wielding Forgebreaker up to 0.693, which is still a little on the low side.  However:

 

Fulgrim only gets one round of additional attacks from Sublime

swordsmen vs Ferrus with Forgebreaker. Forgebreaker had strikedown as

well as concussive, the former kicks in in successful saves as well as

unsaved wounds to halve Fulgrim's initiative. So odds on every turn

Ferrus is keeping Fulgrim's I at at least 4, and so swings first, when I

rolled this match up when I first got Massacre, Ferrus always won, it

cam down to his wounding on 2s and hitting first most of the time, while

Fulgrim needs 5s.

 

I've never actually dealt with Strikedown in a game before, and I thought it was like Concussive - it only works on unsaved wounds.  It works on saved and unsaved wounds, though, which changes the math up and definitely does turn things in Ferrus' favor as long as he has Forgebreaker.  If he doesn't and is fighting with bare hands + servo arm, Fulgrim cuts him apart.  For the actual duel, IIRC Fulgrim had Forgebreaker (but killed Ferrus with his Laer blade) and Ferrus had Fireblade.  Without stats for Fireblade it's hard to say how that would turn out, but I think we might assume it doesn't have strikedown.

Sublime swordsmen gives Fulgrim extra attacks based on initiative difference, he dosent have to have higher I to gain the bonus. In fact, he gets more attacks being I1 against Ferrus than he does at I8.

 

Check your books again, Prodigal.  "In addition when fighting in a challenge he gains a number of additional attacks equal to the amount which his Initiative score is greater than that of his opponent."

[ChainMachete]

What about with their typical entourage, Horus with Justerin, Lorgar Transfigured with Gal Vorbak, Montarion with Death Shroud, etc. First round the sergeants will probably challenge so as to try and get the maximum number of wounds through.

 

Can't think of anything more nasty than 10 Gal Vorbak on the charge with Invisibility from Lorgar, but there again I'm biased because I've just started collecting Word Bearers.

[Sevatar]

 

 

The problem with Primarchs like Mortarion, Dorn, and Perturabo w/ Forgebreaker is... they have Unwieldy. So you have a Primarch hitting at Initiative 1. Kind of gimps them, IMO.

 

I don't really agree.  With their high toughness, saves, and EW, they aren't going to die easily to a mass of tac marines, and they'll strike simul with the threatening stuff (a bunch of terminators with powerfists).  In a duel, I don't think any of the Primarchs has the damage output for a one turn kill on another.  So, let's do a lore matchup - Fulgrim vs Ferrus.  We know how it turns out in the fluff, how does it turn out on the tabletop?

 

Fulgrim strikes first with blinding speed at I8, and receives 3 bonus attacks for his Sublime Swordsman rule.  With a total of 8 attacks, he hits with 5.333 of them, and then wounds with 1.777 of them.  Ferrus will save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.792 wounds get through.

 

Assuming he still has Forgebreaker, he strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting with 2 and wounding with 1.666 of them.  Fulgrim will similarly save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.555 get through.  If Ferrus must fight with his bare hands, he is left with only 1.333 wounds and Fulgrim only fails to save 0.444 wounds.

 

As for imponderables... if Ferrus is especially unlucky, Fulgrim will pass one of his saves with a 6, and then Ferrus will fail his Initiative test (by rolling a 6), leaving him blinded.  The chances of that happening in any given assault phase a pretty miniscule.  However, if Fulgrim fails any of his armor sauves against Ferrus while Ferrus is wielding Forgebreaker, Fulgrim will not only strike second in the next round of combat but he will lose the extra attacks from Sublime Swordsman.  Approximately halving his damage output gives the edge to Ferrus, but you could really only expect this to happen half the time - you could probably even it out by thinking of Fulgrim's output as being 1/4 lower, at 0.594-ish wounds per turn.  Overall, things look like they will turn out exactly as they did in the lore - Ferrus is an artisan, not a fighter.

Fulgrim only gets one round of additional attacks from Sublime swordsmen vs Ferrus with Forgebreaker. Forgebreaker had strikedown as well as concussive, the former kicks in in successful saves as well as unsaved wounds to halve Fulgrim's initiative. So odds on every turn Ferrus is keeping Fulgrim's I at at least 4, and so swings first, when I rolled this match up when I first got Massacre, Ferrus always won, it cam down to his wounding on 2s and hitting first most of the time, while Fulgrim needs 5s.

 

>Have

you factored in Strikedown? Very important as it needs Fulgrims

initiative. Also, the Servo Arm gives him 5 attacks. So, assuming strike

down every round, Ferrus will attack before Fulgrim, then do a Servo

Arm attack at I1

While you're right about Strikedown, you're wrong about the servo arm, it's just another weapon. So if you subscribe to the rules interpretation that a Specialist Weapon can grant +1A to a model using a non-Specialist weapon to attack, then Ferrus has 5 attacks at his normal I, otherwise the arm is only good for repairs, or giving Ferrus AP1 if he doesn't have Forgebreaker (unless they've added rules for hius metal hands somewhere I haven't seen).

 

Edited for formatting.

 

Just checked Betrayal. He gets an extra attack, at initiative one, from the arm.

[Moonstalker]

The Servo Arm has a very specific profile, it's not a melee weapon by itself, it doesn't count as a power fist/specialist weapon.  It just performs a single, S8 AP2 Unwieldy attack.

[AfroCampbell]

someone shud do Vulkan vs Mortarion

[Moonstalker]

An interesting matchup, because it's between the two 'tough' Primarchs, the ones that can actually run around the field on foot and do okay. Mortarion because of his built-in toughness and mobility, and Vulkan because of his armor (and the way it halves the strength of most of the dangerous shooting he'll face). Also interesting from a fluff perspective, in that they both led somewhat primitive population against malevolent xenos. However, I think this one is pretty easy to call for Vulkan.

 

Vulkan starts off with his 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.666 wounds - what we're all familiar with from earlier. Mortarion only has a 4+ invul save, so he'll suffer 0.833 wounds.

 

Mortarion has one more attack and one more wound than Vulkan, but the low strength of his attack and his poorer invul give him an uphill struggle. He's at least on equal WS with Vulkan, so he'll hit with 2.5 of his attacks, and he similarly needs a 4+ to wound, giving him 1.25 wounds for Vulkan to save. So, he'll only be able to push through 0.416 wounds per turn against Vulkan.

 

They both get rerolls for their IWND, so that aspect of their toughness is equal. However, inflicting literally double the number of wounds as Mortarion, Vulkan has the clear advantage, and the single extra wound that Mortarion has will not let him outlast his opponent.

 

Ultimately, I think Mortarion has the same issue that Curze does - they're meant for cutting through swathes of infantry and terrorizing the enemy's forces, not dueling other beings that are on the same power level as them.

[b1soul]

I'd actually like to see Mortation vs. Curze. The two most morbid primarchs who were supposed to be on somewhat friendly terms (or not...I think I read it somewhere)

 

Any of you mathhammer whizzes wanna take a crack at it?

[depthcharge12]

I really want the Lion to be a beast in CC and do well against most other primarchs. He does stalemate with Russ and Curze once during one on one but rips up Curze in another and is an accomplished swordsman.

 

 

I'd think it would be cool to give the Lion a special Hammer of Wrath attack to represent those times he stabbed Curze and punched Leman in the face. I think if he got a D3 HoW with his weapon profile at I10 when he charges, it would be cool and fluffy.

 

I'm sure it needs tweaks but I think it would befit him rules wise

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

An interesting matchup, because it's between the two 'tough' Primarchs, the ones that can actually run around the field on foot and do okay. Mortarion because of his built-in toughness and mobility, and Vulkan because of his armor (and the way it halves the strength of most of the dangerous shooting he'll face). Also interesting from a fluff perspective, in that they both led somewhat primitive population against malevolent xenos. However, I think this one is pretty easy to call for Vulkan.

Vulkan starts off with his 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.666 wounds - what we're all familiar with from earlier. Mortarion only has a 4+ invul save, so he'll suffer 0.833 wounds.

Mortarion has one more attack and one more wound than Vulkan, but the low strength of his attack and his poorer invul give him an uphill struggle. He's at least on equal WS with Vulkan, so he'll hit with 2.5 of his attacks, and he similarly needs a 4+ to wound, giving him 1.25 wounds for Vulkan to save. So, he'll only be able to push through 0.416 wounds per turn against Vulkan.

They both get rerolls for their IWND, so that aspect of their toughness is equal. However, inflicting literally double the number of wounds as Mortarion, Vulkan has the clear advantage, and the single extra wound that Mortarion has will not let him outlast his opponent.

Ultimately, I think Mortarion has the same issue that Curze does - they're meant for cutting through swathes of infantry and terrorizing the enemy's forces, not dueling other beings that are on the same power level as them.

I'm pretty sure Mortarion gets to take his FNP save as the effects of instant death are ignored by EW and ignoring FNP is an effect of instant death.

[[TA]Typher]

Are you guys adding in Corax's hit and run and vector strikes in?

[Moonstalker]

 

An interesting matchup, because it's between the two 'tough' Primarchs, the ones that can actually run around the field on foot and do okay. Mortarion because of his built-in toughness and mobility, and Vulkan because of his armor (and the way it halves the strength of most of the dangerous shooting he'll face). Also interesting from a fluff perspective, in that they both led somewhat primitive population against malevolent xenos. However, I think this one is pretty easy to call for Vulkan.

Vulkan starts off with his 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.666 wounds - what we're all familiar with from earlier. Mortarion only has a 4+ invul save, so he'll suffer 0.833 wounds.

Mortarion has one more attack and one more wound than Vulkan, but the low strength of his attack and his poorer invul give him an uphill struggle. He's at least on equal WS with Vulkan, so he'll hit with 2.5 of his attacks, and he similarly needs a 4+ to wound, giving him 1.25 wounds for Vulkan to save. So, he'll only be able to push through 0.416 wounds per turn against Vulkan.

They both get rerolls for their IWND, so that aspect of their toughness is equal. However, inflicting literally double the number of wounds as Mortarion, Vulkan has the clear advantage, and the single extra wound that Mortarion has will not let him outlast his opponent.

Ultimately, I think Mortarion has the same issue that Curze does - they're meant for cutting through swathes of infantry and terrorizing the enemy's forces, not dueling other beings that are on the same power level as them.

I'm pretty sure Mortarion gets to take his FNP save as the effects of instant death are ignored by EW and ignoring FNP is an effect of instant death.

 

I... don't think Mortarion has FNP?  I'm really tired and might've missed something, but I think he only has 2+/4++, IWND, a reroll for his IWND, Deny the Witch on 4+, reroll for Toughness tests, and a protection against Poisoned/Fleshbane-type effects.

[AfroCampbell]

yea i think ur right.

Any interesting combos for Alpharius? who would u like to see him fight?

[depthcharge12]

yea i think ur right.

Any interesting combos for Alpharius? who would u like to see him fight?

 

I would just like to see him first of all...

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

 

 

An interesting matchup, because it's between the two 'tough' Primarchs, the ones that can actually run around the field on foot and do okay. Mortarion because of his built-in toughness and mobility, and Vulkan because of his armor (and the way it halves the strength of most of the dangerous shooting he'll face). Also interesting from a fluff perspective, in that they both led somewhat primitive population against malevolent xenos. However, I think this one is pretty easy to call for Vulkan.

Vulkan starts off with his 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.666 wounds - what we're all familiar with from earlier. Mortarion only has a 4+ invul save, so he'll suffer 0.833 wounds.

Mortarion has one more attack and one more wound than Vulkan, but the low strength of his attack and his poorer invul give him an uphill struggle. He's at least on equal WS with Vulkan, so he'll hit with 2.5 of his attacks, and he similarly needs a 4+ to wound, giving him 1.25 wounds for Vulkan to save. So, he'll only be able to push through 0.416 wounds per turn against Vulkan.

They both get rerolls for their IWND, so that aspect of their toughness is equal. However, inflicting literally double the number of wounds as Mortarion, Vulkan has the clear advantage, and the single extra wound that Mortarion has will not let him outlast his opponent.

Ultimately, I think Mortarion has the same issue that Curze does - they're meant for cutting through swathes of infantry and terrorizing the enemy's forces, not dueling other beings that are on the same power level as them.

 

I'm pretty sure Mortarion gets to take his FNP save as the effects of instant death are ignored by EW and ignoring FNP is an effect of instant death.

 

I... don't think Mortarion has FNP?  I'm really tired and might've missed something, but I think he only has 2+/4++, IWND, a reroll for his IWND, Deny the Witch on 4+, reroll for Toughness tests, and a protection against Poisoned/Fleshbane-type effects.

Your right, I could have sworn he had FNP though. God that makes him even worse than he is now.

[b1soul]

He does stalemate with Russ and Curze once during one on one but rips up Curze in another and is an accomplished swordsman.

 

Regarding the first Lion vs. Curze fight. It was a stalemate according to statements by the authour on a forum. It certainly didn't read like one on the page: the Lion getting all choked out and head-bashed on the ground and a Dark Angel marine having to jump in to save him 

 

Are you guys adding in Corax's hit and run and vector strikes in?

 

The analysis was done "in a vacuum" so I'm guessing no? Maybe the poster would like to confirm 

[BFeeder]

 Without stats for Fireblade it's hard to say how that would turn out, but I think we might assume it doesn't have strikedown.

 

Fireblade is a master-crafted paragon blade that inflicts murderous strike on a 5+. I think it's safe to say it's not going to help him much.

[Sevatar]

Agreed. While he now wounds on a 4+, he hits on a 3+, while Ferrus hits on a 4+, wounds on a 2+. Ferrus will grind him down with Strikedown and Concussive. As it should be lol.

[b1soul]

Agreed. While he now wounds on a 4+, he hits on a 3+, while Ferrus hits on a 4+, wounds on a 2+. Ferrus will grind him down with Strikedown and Concussive. As it should be lol.

 

If only Ferrus had actually bashed out Fulgrim's brains...

 

Anyone wanna analyse Sigismund vs. Sevatar on the tabletop?

[Sevatar]

Sigismund will slaughter Sevatar. Sevatar doesn't have Eternal Warrior, while Sigismund does.

[Spaz431]

With all of the conversations about strike down and concussive, I feel you are forgetting that Horus has a 66% chance of negating those status effects.

[Deadman Wade]

 

Agreed. While he now wounds on a 4+, he hits on a 3+, while Ferrus hits on a 4+, wounds on a 2+. Ferrus will grind him down with Strikedown and Concussive. As it should be lol.

 

If only Ferrus had actually bashed out Fulgrim's brains...

 

Anyone wanna analyse Sigismund vs. Sevatar on the tabletop?

Sigismund vs anyone except Primarchs or Salamander Praetor is one-sided fight in favor of Sigismund. Instant Death, Just AP2 sword and Eternal Warrior would be enough to win almost any fight, but forcing his enemy to re-roll succesful invulnerable save and high initiative makes him the best non-primarch duelist so far.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Sigismund will slaughter Sevatar. Sevatar doesn't have Eternal Warrior, while Sigismund does.

Yup. Most of the SCs are pretty terrible in CC.