Troop CSM - how to get them to work?

[Kythnos]

Dear Chaos Community,

 

as I've already written in the "Gift of Mutation"-Thread, I'm curently (read: since the current codex dropped) struggling to get my troop Chaos Space marine units to work on the battlefield. Maybe I still rate them too high from the previous codex, where they had everything included already and could reroll morale checks for a meagre 10 points, so they were quite a bit cheaper than if you were to field a similar squad right now. And maybe I'm too reluctant to spend points on all those available upgrades, but in my experience, CSM squads don't deliver the same flexibility and power anymore, as they did in the previous codex . Previously, they were the backbone of my army lists and carried my army through the thick of most engagements, while I see them die and run all the time (ok, this is exaggerated, but it does happen notably more often) nowadays.

 

I did a search for a similar topic to post in, but nothing fitting came up in the first five pages of the search results, so let's have a new discussion here.

 

This is basically for those of us, who are still using their CSM troop units or want to field them more often. How do you run your units? What function do they fill in your army? How do you get them to perform against various opponents?

 

And I know that many users don't see them as a useful unit, but as they are the iconic unit of our faction, I'd like to run them anyway and want to optimize my performance with them.

 

Any ideas and comments towards this goal are very welcome! :)

[Beachymike123]

i know where you're coming from but i still find my CSM squads are fantastic compared to other armies. curently, i have 3 full squads, each of whom performs a role. squad 1 is mid to long range fire support and has all long range weaponry, squad 2 is designated as a CC unit, has the MoK, BPs and CCWs as well as a melta and flamer, and squad 3 is a combination of the 2, taking ubergrit and filling in any gaps that appear in the army line. all squads have objectives as their main goal but can help other squads if needs be. 

thats how i run mine anyway. i'm not a competitive player though, so i'm sure others will have better ideas as to how to make them more competitive in their own right, but this set up works for me. 

[Chaeron]

Although I still think they were better in past, I can see the value in a huge squad with the benefit of Huron. No guarantees, but might be cool.

[Kythnos]

i know where you're coming from but i still find my CSM squads are fantastic compared to other armies. curently, i have 3 full squads, each of whom performs a role. squad 1 is mid to long range fire support and has all long range weaponry, squad 2 is designated as a CC unit, has the MoK, BPs and CCWs as well as a melta and flamer, and squad 3 is a combination of the 2, taking ubergrit and filling in any gaps that appear in the army line. all squads have objectives as their main goal but can help other squads if needs be. 

thats how i run mine anyway. i'm not a competitive player though, so i'm sure others will have better ideas as to how to make them more competitive in their own right, but this set up works for me. 

 

Interesting setups! How do you deal with moral issues? Do you use the Icon of Vengeance or Veterans of the Long War? Or characters to help with their Lead value? Do you use Rhinos?

 

Although I still think they were better in past, I can see the value in a huge squad with the benefit of Huron. No guarantees, but might be cool.

 

Would you see the unit as outflankers (including Huron?) or more as infiltrators? And if not the latter, how about a Slaanesh Lord on a steed who's outflanking with them instead, to add some threat range?

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

This is basically for those of us, who are still using their CSM troop units or want to field them more often.

I still use Chaos Space Marines in my Iron Warriors army list for friendly & tournament games. End of the day I pick Chaos Space Marines because I enjoy using the army, I've been gaming with Chaos Space Marines since starting the hobby 17 years ago. Chaos Space Marines have always been the main part of the army along with Obliterators

How do you run your units?

In my standard army list I usely run three units, as seen in my IW army log the three unit are sub theme as - Veternas, Those going down path of Khorne & then the Seige Breacher units

10 Chaos Space Marines, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW, IoV, Melta, Autocannon, Power Axe Champion

10 Chaos Space Marines, Bolt Pistol, CCW, IoV, Melta, Autocannon, Power Axe Champion

8 Chaos Marines, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW, Melta, IoV, Power Axe Champion

All three units have Rhinos with Extra Armour.

Veteran of the Long War on all unit as well.

What function do they fill in your army?

I prefer aggressive style of gaming & I like using Tank heavy armies. I've never been a fan of static gun line or armies that hide all game (that really boring) & never been keen on infantry heavy/hoard armies.

Also I just prefer getting into close combat more than anything else.

The three units will general spear-head the assault with my Chaos Lord & Terminator bodyguard deep striking down & heldrake arrive on from reserve, while the Obliterators will give support fire.

I take Autocannon in the units so it does give me that bit of range fire power. Say if I'm against Tau or Guard, general shooty armies & my Rhino get destroyed or immobile, I still want my units to be able to still fight on while there walking to get into close combat. Or I need to move a unit back to hold the object in Emperor Will.

Also again it give me that range to deal with that lone model or two who are about to claim a object or would give me that point in kill point - but the rest of my weapons are out of range. I had this happen when a lone Genestealer was about to claim a object, beside the Autocannons, everthing else was out of range & my Obliterators where either in close combat or already slay. Autocannon help stop that lone Genestealer from winning them the game.

Icon of Vengeance is taken, partly because I can not roll dice. But also having fearless is a lot better in my view in 6th ed than last ed, where if you loss combat you'd start taken saves. Also I don't want to loss combat to a unit of Grots.

I fought against the Forge World Eldar Titian last week (not sure the name) & it thanks to Icon of Vengeance that the unit held the titian in close combat all game until the Writhknight arrive to help it out, just it easy for one bad dice roll to go against you in a really important phase say you failed your Ld on last turn hold object or there is a very important close combat phase.

Rhinos - Always taken them since 5th ed & the reason is still the same. I want to protect the unit of Chaos Marines, I rather a unit of Ravenwing Knight use those twin linked Plasma to destroy the Rhinos than wipe out a unit of Chaos Marines. Or as said there, I fought a Eldar titian last week, the game I commented in the Icon part was the second game. Our first game they stole first turn & that titian destroyed 2x Rhinos, Vindicators & both unit of Obliterators all on turn 1, yet my Chaos Marine units where fine, few loss from failed armour save from the destroyed Rhino. But with the units all being near by/supporting each other, it did allow me to get a few Melta gun shot in to get a few hull point of the Titian. If it was not for those Rhinos, the game would have been over on turn 1.

Also as a mobile wall helping to shield the unit if there holding a object or relic or to help shield the Vindicator if I am using that in games.

Only down side I've personal had with Rhinos is not being able to assault out of the Rhino any more like I would be able to do in 5th ed. So if I'm against Orks, I'll usely set up my Chaos Marine units out side & use the Rhinos as a mobile wall. This just help stopping the Orks from using the weight of there number to assault my Chaos Marines & pick units apart as they got to try destroy the Rhinos to try get though & even then it still difficult terrain. Or they've got to spend a turn going around. While in my turn, I can just move the Rhinos to one side or tank shock units & then assault in with the Chaos Marines, allowing me to pick close combat on my terms.

Just I usely battle against a Ork Trukk heavy army that my wargaming club & also that a local tournament that the start of the year I fought a Ork Battle Wagon army twice - same oppent in round 3 & 7, great oppent & really tactical game

Veteran of the Long war - I general will always take this with my Iron Warriors other wise it personal does not feel right for me. I find the +1Ld has help a lot if I do loss my Icon of Vengeance, I loss count amount of time the +1Ld has change a game for me.

While the hater against Space Marines has been great as it one of the main armies I will always come across both in friendly & tournament games. Just there will be a round of combat that you really need to go your way, just with the re-roll to hit in combat. It like Eldar getting fortune & doom to help them in those very important close combat or Space Wolves with the Wolf Standard.

How do you get them to perform against various opponents?

I'll always struggle against Tau as it a army I rarely game against & I'm personal not keen on them. I'll also struggle against the Tezentch screamer council & flying Daemon Prince Daemon armies.

Beside that I've always enjoy using the Chaos Marine units & never felt let down, same with the Rhinos. Since the codex was update in 2012, I never remove any of the units. I may have drop a model or two, the 8 Chaos Marine unit use to be 10 with Autocannon but I drop a few models so I could fit in a single heldrake & also give my Chaos Lord the Axe of Blind Fury in my 1500pts army list, both of which have help out a lot as well.

This is just all my own view & just Chaos Space Marine units have always been the backbone of any army list I written for my Iron Warriors. Same time the army does have a wide range of different units as well give me different chose from game to game.

[NoLifeKing]

We need more threads like this in which to discuss the usage of units in more depth.
I am a firm believer in the strength of a regular marine and thus i field 2-3 squads of them when I'm not fielding my nurgle army.

 

I NEVER upgrade them with the additional close combat weapon as i find it too expensive to multi purpose a unit too far, and if i wish to have them assault i go and swap the bolter for CCW. I some times take the mark of khorne to bring the extra punch, i don't find it a bad place to put any spare points in your list. I field them most of the time with bolters with double plasma mounted in a rhino 10man strong, and use them as troops should be, go and take objectives where ever they are.

I don't usually place any objectives on my own edge of the board but instead midfield or even the opponents side of the board depending on how the opponent places his. Since most armies are easily capable of besting ours in a fire fight, thus i abandon the idea of shooting each other from the opposing sides of the table and focus on overwhelming the enemy side with healthy amount of CSM. That way i don't need to think about defending my own side at all and can focus on taking the objectives that have been placed in close proximity of each other so the CSM squads can better support each other. Such tactics would not work with the slow moving cultists without infiltration thus i favor CSM as my core troops all the more. I support my CSM with chosen, multiple LasPredators and Heldrakes. 

I've also tried out outflanking 20 marines with a steed lord and the results have been pleasing… Extremely so against the ever annoying gun line armies like tau.


 

[Tenebris]

When speaking of the basic Chaos Space Marine and the implementation of this unit in my army lists I always start with the assumption that we speak of a generalist unit which has the role to provide support to other, specialist and dedicated units, thus I equip them accordingly to this role. I cannot say that the basic Chaos Space Marine is all that bad, it is at the end of the day still a space marine, with generic stats and armor which favor the generalist role. Unlike the marines in the other codexes we of Chaos can actually specialize our core chaos space marines for a number or roles, which in the end results in either melee centric or ranged centric units. 

 

Said that I also take in consideration the achilles heel of this unit, which is its discipline and morale. The Chaos Space Marines break and they break easily which can be a danger in melee combat or when we face massed numbers of Pinning weapons which are very useful against us, unlike on other marine armies. So to curb this ill effect we have a number of ways, Fearless characters, Icon of Vengeance, Veterans of the Long War.

 

Last it is the damage output which hands down from a generalist unit it is never expected to be stellar but it is expected to fill the gaps in our army lists, so the Chaos Space Marines do not have the role to delete enemy units but their role is to support those units which are tasked with the destruction of the enemy units. This should reflect in the wargear of the CSM squads.

 

In the end we should consider mobility which again it is ill devised so far in our codex leaving us only three options, Rhino, Land Raider and Infiltration to close up. 

 

So how all this turns out in my army lists? Well I begin with the notion that I use a squad of CSM in my every list, they are the iconic unit of the CSM faction hence they are mandatory in my book. Usually the CSM I filed are very basic when comes to upgrades:
 

Aspiring Champion: Melta Bombs, Lightning Claw

Chaos Space Marines

- Autocannon

- Plasma Gun

- Veterans of the Long War

 

As you can see, no marks and no icons. Why? Simple this is a generalist unit thus it has the general role to provide support to the rest of my army. This units lends well to either deployment via Rhino as well as via Infiltration and the two high strength weapons are usual in many ways. The Autocannon is great when the squad is still in my half of the board and the plasma gun is too far to fire, while the Plasma Gun is overall such a great weapon that it can really kill a number of things. When speaking of the Aspiring Champion I favor light loadouts, with a Melta Bomb to crack some armour should the opportunity arise and a power weapon/lightning claw to have a chance in challenges. While Fearless in very nice I think that Veterans of the Long War, while an ill implemented core mechanic, it is still very useful and allows a better chance to stay on the field. In the end, there are times when it is wise to run away (Our Weapons...).

 

Two of such squads are useful when used in support/interdiction roles, they are great to Infiltrate and can reliably wound a host of enemy units during a game. The trick is only to know when to bite and how much you can chew. Sadly the tactical marines of our loyalist brethren perform better in the generalist role and are more flexible but I say that we can have our fun too.

 

From my experience I think that of all the Marks perhaps Nurgle and Khorne are the most useful since they grant either staying power or melee potential, as for the extra close combat weapon, unfortunately I find it a bad investment since as a general rule our squads should be playing the shooting/skirmishing game and not wade into melee unless to finish a weakened foe. 

Prey on the weak, the wounded and the foolish with your Chaos Space Marines squads and you should be fine and pleased by their performance. Tackle with full units, blobs and melee specialists and it would be you the fool. But always, ever keep something closeby with dedicated firepower or melee potential. I have seen Chaos Space Marine squads perform very well when supported by cheap Cultists or cheap Helbrutes or even Raptors. 

[Excessus]

I usually run two squads of 10 marines with double plasmas and a power sword on the champ. I don't usually give them ubergrit since many of them tend to die off before getting into cc, but the sergeant's power sword is effective against most opponents, and if he ends up in a challenge he might actually bring something down before he dies...

 

Almost every single game I go with these two units, and I use them as a firebase of sorts, they advance or stay at long range and target light or heavy units depending on what the rest of my army is doing. The plasma makes them be able to wound anything and be a threat to terminators, which I am in need of usually (since I always seem to face off against GK or Wraith-thingys or such!). With a leadership of 9-10 depending on vets they usually stay around long enough to claim forward objectives while my cultists usually claim the back ones, and if I run Be'lakor he can always send them back into the fight again if they decided to run away...

[Trevak Dal]

I think overwhelming critical mass is what's needed, though I'm sort of at a loss with what to do against monstrous creature based defenses.  I find myself hesitating-which is bad, and I know it's a mistake.

 

I'm still pretty new to Chaos...and I'm in a "Close/Near Combat" since my first/main army is Tau (not a gunline though, the only static elements are the Broadsides).  I know how to fight with them.

 

Its like-going from Halo to Call of Duty.  I can fight in Halo, I'm a contender and can use ANY weapon and vehicle with competence.  I go over to Call of Duty and I'm just all thumbs.  That's how I feel with my Chaos, like I'm all thumbs (and 1's on the dice-holy crap Get's hot kicks the snot outta my guys.  I'm almost afraid to try plasma cannons on my Obliterators anymore)

[Excessus]

Tzeentch have gifted you with a full set of thumbs, use them well! :D

 

 

Though, experience is the key, and target saturation. Lots of infantry and quicker, more dangerous targets than regular marines make them live long...

[Sception]

Mostly I take them in squads of ten with 4x bolter, 3xccwep, vets, 2x plas, pswords on champs, rhinos, and if I can squeez it in dozer blades, melta bombs. This is not a purely tactical configuration, but rather subject to wysiwyg & black legion tax, without which I'd likely drop the sword, vets, and trade the remaining ccweps for bolters.

 

They work for me. Not well for the points, but they are a threat to enemy objective campers, and provided my more offensive units can handle those of the enemy, they have been able to score the points to win me games. They're overpriced for what they do, but thats not the same as saying they can't do anything. Don't splurge elsewhere if you take them, however. Points inefficiency is a cumulative problem, not one that averages out.

[A D-B]

In games against my regular opponent (Grey Knights) 10-man squads of Chaos Marines all tooled up with plasma guns/pistols are my surest way to carve down the Terminator Squads which comprise most of his army. Cheaper, more bodies, and they look cooler than his guys. And with the Mark of Khorne, they've got a fair chance of fighting back at close range, too.

[Brother Heinrich]

I always run a minimum of two 10-man squads with VotLW, 2x Plasma guns and Melta Bombs on the champ. They always run in a bare-bones rhino as well. I've found it's far too easy to waste points on upgrades like banners and CC weapons when they die just as easily as regular marines. As chaos we have some fantastic options for both fast attack and heavy support that really outclass their codex equivalents. I always let my Bikers, Oblits, Landraider, and Contemptor do the heavy lifting in any battle, while my chaos marines move up and secure objectives while providing infantry support for my heavy-hitters. I keep them all warm and toasty in their rhinos until the opportunity presents itself and then I jump out and dump 16 bolter and 4 plasma shots into a unit, which is usually enough to either kill it or effectively negate its presence on the battlefield. 

 

Basically chaos marine are a support force, never over-estimate what they can do, otherwise they'll let you down, but use them conservatively, and in the right scenario, and they will deliver far more pain than their loyalist counterparts. The greatest advantage we have is the dual special weapons, capitalize on this.

[Dallas Drake]

10 man with 2 plasma & champ with melta bombs & powersword is good. MoN isn't bad & MoK is good too. I've run big squads with Huron/Lord & tried Fabius Bile too (too expensive). If you're going to run CSM keep them cheap & avoid too many upgrades (VoTLW etc).

[Scribe]

I've run the plasma squads, the 1's...make me weep too hard.

 

10, CCW vs Bolter, 2 Flamer, charge. :D

[minigun762]

Can't go wrong with any version of paired specials and a combi weapon in a Rhino.

VotLW is a must if there is no HQ attached.

[Dragonlover]

10 men, Rhino, 2 plasmaguns, CCW's, combi-plas and power sword on the Champion. Oh, and Vets because I hate failing checks on a 9 or 10.

 

I run two squads with the above setup, and a squad that drops a plasma dude for Huron. Various infiltrating shenanigans can occur, but mostly they drive around, melt some guys and generally harass stuff that needs it, then once things are a bit thinned out they jump out of either the Rhino or the Rhino shaped crater and chop stuff up.

 

Dragonlover

[totgeboren]

I seldom know what army I will face when I game (either 2 vs 2 games and most players have more than one army, so you never know what people will bring).

 

I almost always include a squad with 2xplasma, vets, extra ccw, LC on champ and in a rhino with a Havoc Launcher. It sounds expensive, and it sort of is, but they always deliver on one condition. That I manage to move them to within 18" of the enemy on turn 1. This is pretty hard sometimes (Eldar hugging the table edge for example), and if they had access to Pods it would make my life much easier, but they always do good stuff if there is terrain to cover their advance or the enemy advances on me.

 

Last game they advanced in tandem with a Contemptor, and second turn they took out a Grey Hunter squad with their plasma and bolters, and turn four they could assault a big squad of Necrons, where the LC champ carved up their Lord before he got to swing and the marines made scrap metal of the warriors in close combat. So I was really happy that I spent the points on the extra ccw. The four survivors then moved up and secured an objective at the end of the game.

 

Advancing with a walker is pretty handy too, since the walker can save them from being run over if they lose close combat.

 

Anyway, they need to be in the thick of it, tooled for everything to pull their weight. As pure cc they have disappointed me every time, and t range they simply don't do enough damage to be worth the points. Havocs work better at range, basic squads should hand over their heavy weapons to them. :P

[Tenebris]

I agree, the humble Plasma Gun is the bread&butter of the Chaos Space Marines unit. I only favor the Autocannon a bit more for more often than not you really need some distance between you and you know... the charging Carnifex or those skimpy Dark Eldar dominas. It is the case, the Plasma Gun is point by point the best killer in our codex and we can actually spam it in ways undreamt of by the other books. 

 

In all fairness the top argument with the Chaos Space Marines is whether to Rhino or not. In most cases to use a Rhino is the better option but I have found that Huron with his D3 Infiltration is the best and safest way to position a CSM squad. Combine that with the speed of Spawn and a Maulerfiend and things get nasty, as long as you can live through the deluge of fire heading your way on turn one. By turn two you already capitalize on the deployment. 

 

My secret, wet dream is D6 Infiltration units for the Alpha Legion... that or an Infiltration upgrade for every unit in the book. It is more reliable and safer than a Rhino.

[Dallas Drake]

I've honestly never found infiltrate that useful for getting closer considering the points you pay for it, plus Huron is abit of a jack of all trades/master of none. I play mostly on a 48" x 60" board with 12" deployment. It's only Tau or IG where that 18" counts as something since against most armies I can get roughly within 24" on turn one, all those points for 6", not really worth it. The ability to deploy after your opponents is where infiltrate is at IMO & I'd be using that on my heavy support & elites really.

 

I now run Crimson Slaughter & use Possessed as troops though.

[totgeboren]

Funny thing, I have only rolled infiltrate as my Warlord Trait once since the codex came out, and then I only had a single unit of cultists that I could use it on. :P

But yeah, CSM squads become much more useful if they can infiltrate, so I could see them being a bit more useful in Huron/Ahriman armies.

[Excessus]

Funny thing, I have only rolled infiltrate as my Warlord Trait once since the codex came out, and then I only had a single unit of cultists that I could use it on.

But yeah, CSM squads become much more useful if they can infiltrate, so I could see them being a bit more useful in Huron/Ahriman armies.

I usually roll Soul Fire myself, almost every single time! :P

Infiltrate is a bit over-estimated imho. Most people I play against deploy in such a way that you are hard-pressed to even get 6" out of it (since you want to be in a protected place as well and not out in the open infront of your opponent's big guns), but what it gives is outflank! Outflanking CSM with dual plasmas in a rhino is quite nice. A sturdy scoring unit that packs a punch and comes in right into your opponent's face! :)

[NoLifeKing]

I was just pondering that since the warlord trait allows you to give infiltrate to D3 INFANTRY UNITS, Doesn't that mean that i could give it to the HQ who then joins the CSM unit and outflanks with them? After all, HQ or not, IC or not its still considered an Infantry Unit

[Excessus]

I was just pondering that since the warlord trait allows you to give infiltrate to D3 INFANTRY UNITS, Doesn't that mean that i could give it to the HQ who then joins the CSM unit and outflanks with them? After all, HQ or not, IC or not its still considered an Infantry Unit

Yes, you can do that. Though he won't fit in a rhino if you have a squad of 10 CSM with dual plasmas... ;)

[NoLifeKing]

I was just pondering that since the warlord trait allows you to give infiltrate to D3 INFANTRY UNITS, Doesn't that mean that i could give it to the HQ who then joins the CSM unit and outflanks with them? After all, HQ or not, IC or not its still considered an Infantry Unit

Yes, you can do that. Though he won't fit in a rhino if you have a squad of 10 CSM with dual plasmas...

Then all that needs to be done is to throw the 2nd plasma gunner out of the top hatch as a diversion… He was going to die to overheating plasma anyway