Troop CSM - how to get them to work?

[Tenebris]

Well I personally agree, I am a diehard fan of the humble Melta Gun but I find the Plasma Gun a much better option. With the Plasma you have range, volume of fire when in 12'' and AP 2. Sure it has Get's Hot! but overall it is a swiss knife of a weapon. 

 

In general terms I always pack a Melta squad in my army. You never know when something nasty, heavy and potentially deadly needs some overkill. 

[Dam13n]

Where I would keep the Plasma Guns but swap the Lightning Claw for a Combi-plasma.  I'd probably drop Vets as well and pop them in a Rhino.

- I prefer Meltaguns on Bikers or Chosen.  Bikers for mobility, Chosen for fire saturation.

 

For me the extra range (of the Plasma) and mobility (from the Rhino) increases their threat radius, which is useful in maintaining board control.

 

Combined with Obliterators or Vindicators you can present your opponent with a difficult proposition - what do they kill first?  Everything should have threat, some things more obviously than others, but if everything is dangerous it's very difficult to prioritise accurately.

 

Rhinos are great for this, the seemingly mediocre metal box can contain all manner of hurt, yet gets ignored a lot.  I use this apparent innocence to get my Chosen where I need them, but the principal holds true for any unit.  They contain threat, but are themselves not threatening, it causes people to prioritise killing other units.  Something they usually come to regret.  Which then shifts threat onto the squads those Rhinos carried and away from other units.  Being able to manipulate your opponent is a skill I've tried over the years to master (I'm still not quite there yet, mind you).  If he's reacting to your decisions then it's very much your game to win.

 

Coming back to the Marines, they cannot assault of the their best delivery system - so being able to lay down the most destructive storm of fire possible becomes a priority.  Now Flamers are a possibility if you feel you can get close enough to the enemy to make the most of them (and you see T3 and/or 5+ saves (or worse) a lot in your local meta).  However against the majority of enemies in my local meta at the moment - the Plasma Gun wins.

 

Now this also means that assault becomes a tool for cleaning up what's left, or for locking up enemy units that present a clear danger to something vital in your army.  In both cases, melee killing power isn't first priority, in fact it can be detrimental at times.

 

Now you could Min-max, although this way Plague Marines lurk (as they usually do the job better).  So CSM units tend to be better off being larger.  More bodies and more Bolters (for the points) being their stock in trade.

[minigun762]

Well I personally agree, I am a diehard fan of the humble Melta Gun but I find the Plasma Gun a much better option. With the Plasma you have range, volume of fire when in 12'' and AP 2. Sure it has Get's Hot! but overall it is a swiss knife of a weapon. 

 

In general terms I always pack a Melta squad in my army. You never know when something nasty, heavy and potentially deadly needs some overkill. 

 

Plasma is awesome, don't get me wrong. It's just the rapid fire nature of it that keeps me from wanting to include it in assault squads. 

But I'm fine losing the PW or Claw for a combi plasma to put out extra hurt up close. 

[Dallas Drake]

 

I was just pondering that since the warlord trait allows you to give infiltrate to D3 INFANTRY UNITS, Doesn't that mean that i could give it to the HQ who then joins the CSM unit and outflanks with them? After all, HQ or not, IC or not its still considered an Infantry Unit

Yes, you can do that. Though he won't fit in a rhino if you have a squad of 10 CSM with dual plasmas... ;)

ICs can't give infiltrate to units without infiltrate, unless that changes in 7th?

 

It's been argued out to death. Have a read here:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/12/cypher-and-fallen-dataslate/

[Dam13n]

It's still being argued to death here every now and again.  To the point where any OR thread on the subject is on borrowed time from the moment it is spawned.

 

If your local group allows it - fine.  If not, bad luck.

 

However, it is largely accepted that a character with infiltrate joined to a unit in reserve allows the entire unit to outflank.

[Jolemai]

It's currently being debated over on the BA forum.

[incinerator950]

*language*

[Sception]

Ah, the infiltrate debate. Not resolved in the least in 7th. No, we get a specific note that characters without infiltrate cannot join units with at all, but no clarification what so ever on the other way around, which was the actual debate in the first place. It's like the designers heard there was an issue with infiltrate and characters, but never bothered to look into what that issue actually was before slapping on a half-arsed patch vaguely near yet somehow not touching the actual problem in the slightest.

 

The more I see of the fine details of 7th edition, the more angry I am at the insulting lack of effort involved in the writing of its rules.

[minionboy]

Personally, I run 2 configurations of marine squad (unless I'm being goofy), that are one of these two ways:

 

10 Chaos Marines: 2 Plasma Guns, in Rhino with Havoc Launcher

 

or

 

10 Chaos Marines: 2 Meltaguns, in Rhino with Dozer Blade

 

The plasma gun squad usually sits in back/mid field, on an objective shooting plasma shots out the top, or outside their rhino, letting it score one objective while they camp the other.  Obviously the Meltagun squad is more for getting across the board and popping tanks.

 

I've honestly never been disappointed with the performance of standard Chaos Marines, only having been wiped out a couple times when I'd rather not have.  The big thing for me though is to keep them cheap!

[Sception]

I've honestly never been disappointed with the performance of standard Chaos Marines, only having been wiped out a couple times when I'd rather not have.  The big thing for me though is to keep them cheap!

That should be the mean take away. Our units in general tend to be somewhat overpriced/underperforming, but not by so much as to be bad exactly. But most of our options are far more overpriced, so the more cool chaosy stuff you heap on your units, the worse they tend to get.

[MaliGn]

I've had more success with standard csm than anything else, not played hugely, but I've had them prove to be a real thorn in my opponent's side. I've mostly been playing against eldar and although I could have done better overall the stock marines have usually done OK, I run them quite cheap, flamer, melta and a power weapon champ usually. It's probably not the most optimal but does mean they have some utility in pretty much any situation, with a bit of luck of course. I !at add some smaller plasma squads for more rapid assault/midfield footslogging and advancing with overlapping fields of fire, covering each other.

[the jeske]

What do you mean by smaller. Are the melta+flamer squads bigger then 10 man ?

[MaliGn]

No, a pair of five man single plasma, working in concert so one can run one turn while the other shoots, utilise cover and move up to cap midfield objectives with objective secured.

[Muskie]

Aspiring Champion: Melta Bombs, Lightning Claw

Chaos Space Marines

- Autocannon

- Plasma Gun

- Veterans of the Long War

 

As you can see, no marks and no icons. Why? Simple this is a generalist unit thus it has the general role to provide support to the rest of my army. This units lends well to either deployment via Rhino as well as via Infiltration and the two high strength weapons are usual in many ways. The Autocannon is great when the squad is still in my half of the board and the plasma gun is too far to fire, while the Plasma Gun is overall such a great weapon that it can really kill a number of things. When speaking of the Aspiring Champion I favor light loadouts, with a Melta Bomb to crack some armour should the opportunity arise and a power weapon/lightning claw to have a chance in challenges. While Fearless in very nice I think that Veterans of the Long War, while an ill implemented core mechanic, it is still very useful and allows a better chance to stay on the field. In the end, there are times when it is wise to run away (Our Weapons...).

 

Two of such squads are useful when used in support/interdiction roles, they are great to Infiltrate and can reliably wound a host of enemy units during a game. The trick is only to know when to bite and how much you can chew. Sadly the tactical marines of our loyalist brethren perform better in the generalist role and are more flexible but I say that we can have our fun too.

 

 

 

How do yo infiltrate a lone standard squad of CSM? Are you relying on a Warlord trait or special character? Can they Outflank or just infiltrate?

[Tenebris]

I usually use Huron, hope for the Infiltration Warlord trait or lately role on the new Warlord traits but it is less and less important. At this stage of the game shift the Autocannon for an extra Plasma Gun since we need that AP2 for the rolls on the vehicle chart and spice the unit up with a Chaos Rhino.

 

How would look my unit in 7th Edition?

 

Aspiring Champion: Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs

Chaos Space Marines:

- 2x Plasma Gun

- Veterans of the Long War

 

+ Chaos Rhino

 

Off the head it comes exactly at 250 points. 

 

Support the unit with Maulerfiends, Spawn and some other hard hitting things. Armour is making a comeback so in order to shoot what is inside a can, you have to rip open the can first. Remember that in a Battleforged army this unit has OS, even the Rhino, so capping objectives and pouring plasma is their job. 

[plasmaspam]

I run two styles of Chaos Marine squads:

 

1 - Two squads at 243pts a piece comprising 10 Marines, AspChamp Combi-Plas, 2x Plas, additional CCW's, VotLW, basic Rhino

2 - One squad at 288pts comprising 10 Marines, MoK, Icon of Wrath, Asp Champ Combi-Flamer and Chain Axe, 2x Flamer, additional CCW's, VotLW, Rhino with Dirge Casters and Havoc Launcher

 

Plas squads intended to close in on a target squad(s), unleash a plasma torrent, then roll in for the coup de grace in CC towards securing objectives.  Bear in mind I do say intended, very rarely has this approach come off perfectly for me!  Alot of the time I have them cowering in fear castled up in cover waiting for the opponent to make the first move.

 

Flamer squad is quite obviously an in-your-face mayhem attack squad.  Very effective if you pick the right fight, but needs fire support to help them make it round the battle field.

[Slave to Darkness]

I use my Word Bearers as a 40k army and a 30k army so I use model them so the squad is useable in either setting, so I run 20 man csm squads armed with bolters, x2 squads of, sure I lack special or heavy weapons but the amount of shots I kick out is nasty, I usually use these with 20 possessed,  autocannon havocs,  one unit of 35 cultists and a vindicator.

 

I may not have a great list, or use the stuff that we 'must' use in a csm army but more often than not I win and I enjoy using the army, basically I approve of 20 man units, never leave home without them.

[Urauloth]

Interesting. How do you effectively manuver 20-strong units on foot and/or avoid losing them to artillery?

[Xenith]

Interesting. How do you effectively manuver 20-strong units on foot and/or avoid losing them to artillery?

 

Same as with 10 man squads, model spacing.

 

1x20 man unit is less difficult to maneuver than 2x 10 man units.

 

If you are only using bolters anyway, the lack of additional special weapons above 10 men doesnt hurt too much.

[Emperors Immortals]

@Slavetodarkness, ive been trying to make a 20 man bolter squad work in my games, do you think its easier to run 2 of them? Also what sort of opponents do you face?

[Slave to Darkness]

@Slavetodarkness, ive been trying to make a 20 man bolter squad work in my games, do you think its easier to run 2 of them? Also what sort of opponents do you face?

i usually end up facing off against marnes, grey knights, eldar and guard. space them out and leg it up the table behind the cultists. then just rapid fire the crap outta everything, the enemys usually trynna kill my possessed and vindicator so my marines get left alone for a bit, 2 squads of 20 works allright, annoying having to space out so many big units though. sometime i buy rhinos for them, and use them as moving cover. 

[Emperors Immortals]

Zhukov reminded me in a recent post that rhinos are cheap and fast screening units, for 35pts I think he's damn right.

 

I was trying to spam rhinos as fast terrain and use raptors to back up the big squads, though now I might just run a few bezerkers as distraction and buy a second bolter blob.

[Chaos Lord Rakarial 20]

I run vanilla csm i always keep the bolter and imo they are good i have 1 unit i regulary run

10 chaos space marines 2 melta guns melta bombs on the champ

I put them in a bare bones rhino which to be fair for the cost is pretty decent

For objective camping i run

10 Chaos Space Marines witj a combi bolter on the champ and a heavy bolter

I run vanilla csm i always keep the bolter and imo they are good i have 1 unit i regulary run

10 chaos space marines 2 melta guns melta bombs on the champ

I put them in a bare bones rhino which to be fair for the cost is pretty decent

For objective camping i run

10 Chaos Space Marines witj a combi bolter on the champ and a heavy bolter

I run vanilla csm i always keep the bolter and imo they are good i have 1 unit i regulary run

10 chaos space marines 2 melta guns melta bombs on the champ

I put them in a bare bones rhino which to be fair for the cost is pretty decent

For objective camping i run

10 Chaos Space Marines witj a combi bolter on the champ and a heavy bolter