Troop CSM - how to get them to work?

[Dragonlover]

My plasma rolls are on a downswing at the mo. I had four guys out of five melt themselves the other day.

 

Anyone had any luck with 20-man squads? I'm occasionally tempted to try it just for the hell of it, but I never quite get round to it.

 

Dragonlover

[A D-B]

Funny thing, I have only rolled infiltrate as my Warlord Trait once since the codex came out, and then I only had a single unit of cultists that I could use it on.

See, you use that emoticon, but all I feel is a very real, very justified anguish.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My plasma rolls are on a downswing at the mo. I had four guys out of five melt themselves the other day.

 

Anyone had any luck with 20-man squads? I'm occasionally tempted to try it just for the hell of it, but I never quite get round to it.

 

Dragonlover

 

I had actually built a Huron-led army list with a 20 man squad with CCW/BP, a pair of meltas, MoS, and IoE.  The concept was that Huron joins them and the whole big group Outflanks.  Twenty Marines with FNP is nothing to sneeze at, and that's enough attacks to drown anything shy of a Wraithknight.

 

But I never did build the squad, much less try it out in a game.  A tide of Marines just rushing forward doesn't fit my concept of the Alpha Legion (thus why I hated Hunt for Voldorius).

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Has anyone tried footslogging squads. I'm getting the Crimson Slaughter codex soon so my thought was a 10 man squad of Possessed for run forward distraction (I know cultists do it better just not a huge fan) and follow it up with two large groups of CSM with a Krannon outfitted Lord in one and possibly the Sorc with Div Armor in a Termi retinue. Any suggestions on squad size or loadouts? I was thinking uber grit and plasma guns but I am a terrible flip flopper and can't decide and since funds are suddenly very limited all I will be able to manage is about 30 CSM total.

 

For back up I was thinking the Termi's and either Forgefiends or Maulerfiends to keep pace (or charge ahead in the laters case). Any suggestions experiences footslogging? Not a massively competitive environment that I play in.

Thanks,
DoC

[Tenebris]

Yeah, I am a diehard infantryman when comes to my plastic soldiers, a habit I took up when I was playing the Imperial Guard (curse me now for selling them). I attempted to footslog with squads of 10, 20 and MSU marines and all more often than not reached the place where they needed to be. The main problem is that you really need Fearless to make it work for the game is now full of Pinning weapons which can severely hamper your squads. It works, but a Rhino or Infiltration is always better, but really much much better. 

[Dam13n]

I used to regularly run 2 units of 10 CSM either with double-Flamer or Flamer, Autocannon.

 

They would usually look to camp in the midfield, on an objective and would usually get ignored in favour of my Plague Marines, Chosen or Tanks

- 6 VPs, thanking you.

 

The problem is that I've found exchanging them for 2 units of 5 Noise Marines with a Blastmaster each to offer me more, while still fulfilling the same objective holding role.  It also encouraged me to swap an expensive (and largely uninspiring) Sorcerer for an additional Slaanesh Lord with Jump Pack and Burning Brand, who's just fun to play with.

 

I'm always playing with my list nowadays though.  Mainly because I'm trying to work out what I want to take in my next Chaos army.  Massed Noise Marines are tempting (backed up by Bikers, maybe some Daemonettes and whatever else I end up leaning towards).

 

It's one of things I like about Chaos, the variety of different core (troops) units we can potentially field is pretty impressive, especially when you add in the Supplements.

 

Though, back to the OT - if I were to go back to my standard CSM squads again, I'd probably keep them cheap and mobile:

- Champion with Combi-plasma

- Marine with Plasma Gun

- 3 Marines with Bolters

- Rhino with Havok Launcher

 

Combined with:

- Bike Champion - Combi-melta

- 2 Bikers with Meltaguns

 

The 1-2 of the Meltas cracking open a transport followed by a drive-by mugging from the Rhino-borne CSM unit could be quite a fun tactic to try and pull off.

[Kythnos]

Wow, thanks for all the input so far, that's a lot to think about! :)

 

Generalizing from the things thathave been said so far, I think one might make a few points (and to many of you I might be stating the obvious, sorry). I've also added a few questions to them, so if you feel like you can add to some of them, feel free to make this discussion even more productive (and I think for this sub-forum, we're doing amazingly well!):

 

1. Most of us seem to favour squad sizes of 10 CSM (mainly for the 2 special weapons). Minimum squad sizes as well as blob squads are quite rare, even though the options exist. 

-> Is this due to deciding they're not worth it on the paper or testing?

 

2. For deployment it's mostly a matter of personal preference (and the list the unit has to perate in), whether Rhinos are used or not. Additionally, Huron (or also Ahriman?) are thrown into the mix for infiltration and outflanking, though the first option seems to be preferred.

->Personally, I'm quite intrigued by the option of outflanking (also via the slaanesh mount) and am wondering why this wasn't mentioned more often.

 

3. While melta weapons were in favour last edition, plasma guns seem to be the most used choice nowadays, as they add threat potential against a lot of targets. When it comes to heavy weapons, it's only the autocannon that gets mentioned.

->What about the LasPlas-setup? 

 

4. Ubergrit still seems to be a thing, despite the points costs, and many CSM players still seem to like the allrounder-possibilities that their squads gain with that option. On the other hand, the cheap and chearful approach seems to be even more dominant.

-> I'ver been using cheap squads for a while now, but with your experiences, I might give my allrounder squads a new chance.

 

5. Marks and icons are only used very rarely, as point costs quickly add up.

-> Do we have some more experiences from players who use marks and icons on a more regular basis?

 

6. Many people still seem to use power weapons of some sort for their champions, despite the champions of chaos rule. Most mentioned are the humble power sword and the power claw, while power fists seem to have died out for now.

-> I was a bit surprised about seeing so many power weapons still in use - how do they work for you, now that they're always in a higher danger of dieing?

[incinerator950]

I think the problem with the lascannon is the same as many other mentions, Obliterators or Laspreads use them better than the heavy option or any mix on a havoc squad.

[Dragonlover]

I put a power sword on my guys because if I must challenge, I want the greatest chance of taking the enemy with me. That means I need a decent AP and no drop to initiative, so swords it is.

 

I went with ten man squads because they fit in a Rhino and also get the extra weapon. I'd rather the Rhino gets shot up first than my guys.

 

As for ubergrit, it's mostly to taunt Loyalist players. I enjoy the fact our guys remember to grab an extra knife on the way to the fight, unlike theirs. Plus the extra attacks gave come in handy for me.

 

Dragonlover

[Dosjetka]

I love this thread, needs to be more of the same type. Thanks for all of the input! :)

[Chaeron]

I actually used to prefer minimum squads for my Iron Warriors: make use of the Heavy/Special allowance and use them to support everything else. That said, two bigger units (generally ten strong) equipped for combat in Rhinos did use to be a consistent feature that I wonder if I would still use now. Probably not all things considered equal - but they did used to take pride of place in my army!

[the jeske]

 

 

 

1. Most of us seem to favour squad sizes of 10 CSM (mainly for the 2

special weapons). Minimum squad sizes as well as blob squads are quite

rare, even though the options exist. 

-> Is this due to deciding they're not worth it on the paper or testing?

Testing .

 

 

2. For deployment it's mostly a matter of personal preference (and

the list the unit has to perate in), whether Rhinos are used or not.

Additionally, Huron (or also Ahriman?) are thrown into the mix for

infiltration and outflanking, though the first option seems to be

preferred.

->Personally, I'm quite intrigued by the option of outflanking

(also via the slaanesh mount) and am wondering why this wasn't mentioned

more often.

Costs a lot , limits the lord to a slower then him moving unit. requires either huron , ahriman or a slanesh lord. Out of which huron is probably the best , if a bit random. Also bigger squads suffer more from outflanking [harder to hide when they come in , even if reservs chance is higher in 6th having a lord and unit outside for 2+turns , when we already have units in reservs makes us play with a 500 less points for 1-2 turns , then our opponents].

 

 

3. While melta weapons were in favour last edition, plasma guns seem

to be the most used choice nowadays, as they add threat potential

against a lot of targets. When it comes to heavy weapons, it's only the

autocannon that gets mentioned.

->What about the LasPlas-setup? 

Costs too much for csm . If there was a way to run chosen without abadon or the BL vets tax , it could be an option [bad by the way too much multi shot and cover to make one shot weapons without ignore cover viable].

 

 

4. Ubergrit still seems to be a thing, despite the points costs, and

many CSM players still seem to like the allrounder-possibilities that

their squads gain with that option. On the other hand, the cheap and

chearful approach seems to be even more dominant.

-> I'ver been using cheap squads for a while now, but with your experiences, I might give my allrounder squads a new chance.

Actualy it is not a thing . an ubergrit marine costs so much that one may as well run SW GH by that point , the helldrake is not so good that it can balance multiple ubergrit csm units [specialy when their cost makes us run fewer drakes/oblits and generly stuff that kill stuff in our lists].

 

5. Marks and icons are only used very rarely, as point costs quickly add up.

-> Do we have some more experiences from players who use marks and icons on a more regular basis?

They don't work . CSM are not kill units [or to be more precise they aren't good kill units]. the icons are not worth taking as they can be snipe[and they cost a lot] . marks are useless [mot doesn't do a thing.csm mon <pms . MoS csm would have to be run with HQs and icons in a deathstar set up and a deathstar cost for not much return . they could be played as minimax with 5 man mos and a plasma , but so can NM] , unless they are khorn . khorn csm are better then their "cult" unit version , but considering it is a melee only upgrade and that this makes them better then a melee only unit , the being better part does not make them good.

 

 

6. Many people still seem to use power weapons of some sort for their

champions, despite the champions of chaos rule. Most mentioned are the

humble power sword and the power claw, while power fists seem to have

died out for now.

-> I was a bit surprised about seeing so many power weapons still

in use - how do they work for you, now that they're always in a higher

danger of dieing?

Taking upgrades for champions would suggest that some sort of a return is expected from the points used up . But what will the asp champion face in melee . An HQ[wasted points most of the time here as an asp champion will be either too weak to wound or too slow to hurt an HQ] an FMC [most faster and tougher then a asp champions] , bikers sgts[swords lose a lot when they stop wounding on +3/+4]. Nothing else gets in to melee with csm and if it does it doesn't matter , if the champion has a power weapon or not . The "best" weapon for a champion would probably be a mace as it buffs his str to hit t5+ models , considering we are probably runing MoK [mon/mot doesn't give us much , if we are doing melee we may as well take NM who are fearless and with syren] we aren't that much worse at killing 1-2w targets as a sword asp champion. Still a slim return considering we shouldn't want our csm to be in melee.

[Excessus]

an ubergrit marine costs so much that one may as well run SW GH by that point

Hate to break it to you jeske, but we don't have the option of taking grey Hunters as troops in a chaos army! ;)

 

If you are going to compare costs, compare it to something that actually is an option for us...

[Trevak Dal]

I doubt Space Wolves will keep their "get the 2nd special free" since to my knowledge no other space marine codex out has that ability any more, so I don't count that towards a 'pro' of going furry.

[the jeske]

Counts as is always an option. Specialy when the SW has everything our codex has ,+what the CS codex has +what the BL has -helldrakes and demon ally as BB and all the BB ally imperials can take.

 

uber grit on csm costs too much . Taking uber grit means the csm have to do something else then stay alive and take pot shots at stuff or be one shot counter units[like 5dudes in a havock back with a flame]. And doing something else is something csm are not equiped to do in 6th ed.

 

Even if we took only 10man squads and took only half of our troops in csm [rest being cultists or cultists+scoring ally that are cheap] , the cost is very prohibitative[that is with staying away with icons and marks , because with those taken we are aproching death star costs for a unit with no real deathstar class transports outside of FW and no resiliance or killablity expected from a deathstar].

[minigun762]

If I decided to bulk out the Champion, I'd go with a combi and single claw. Mixed with the obligatory VotLW and you have a solid MEQ killer.

And really, that's all one can expect from a Champion is to win in a mirror match. In this case, you're especially hoping that the other guy left CCW off his squad leader as is the norm currently.

 

The combi is a fairly safe addition as it's highly likely to "make it's points back" in a single turn.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Putting a combi-weapon on a Champ for me is a toss-up depending on what weapons the rest of the squad has, plus whether or not I'm giving him a power weapon.  For example, for ETL, I'm going to start rebuilding my Alpha Legion army, and I want -- for the sake of flavor rather than any tactical considerations -- each of my Champions to be equipped differently.  Tauron Assault Squad's Champ will have a power maul and a combi-melta, because the rest of the squad has meltas.  Jaeger Rifle Squad's Champ, on the other hand, is going to have just a combi-plasma to complement the squad's two plasma guns; the unit is designed to sit in the backfield and camp a home or near-home objective.  That task combined with a possibility of frying the sergeant is why I won't be putting a power weapon on him.  On the flip side, Venator Rifle Squad's Champ has a power sword but no combi or pistol to match the squad's plasma guns because they're an "advancing" unit in a Rhino, and I want to ensure that that power sword survives to actually hit something in combat.

[Dallas Drake]

I hate the way CSM threads always come back to someone saying 'you're better off just playing as Space Wolves'. Seriously, what kind of an answer is that? If any of us wanted to play Space Wolves (and I'm sure some of us do/have) then we would actually play Space Wolves - using Space Wolves models.

 

I play CSM because I love the models and the fluff, I don't want to bring my 2.5k painted Word Bearers to a game & then use a Space Wolves list/codex - that sucks & frankly that's not even close to what I want from the hobby.

[Dallas Drake]

Has anyone tried footslogging squads. I'm getting the Crimson Slaughter codex soon so my thought was a 10 man squad of Possessed for run forward distraction (I know cultists do it better just not a huge fan) and follow it up with two large groups of CSM with a Krannon outfitted Lord in one and possibly the Sorc with Div Armor in a Termi retinue. Any suggestions on squad size or loadouts? I was thinking uber grit and plasma guns but I am a terrible flip flopper and can't decide and since funds are suddenly very limited all I will be able to manage is about 30 CSM total.

 

For back up I was thinking the Termi's and either Forgefiends or Maulerfiends to keep pace (or charge ahead in the laters case). Any suggestions experiences footslogging? Not a massively competitive environment that I play in.

 

Thanks,

DoC

 

Footslogging is fine but take a few extra bodies. When I ran CSM I used to take 15-20 with MoK/MoS and meltaguns in a Bile and/or Huron list (basically so I could run something like Possessed as Troops - something Crimson Slaughter has solved for me!). They were pretty good & even when they ended up in combat with something better than them their weight of attacks carried them through. All of my Rhinos are in storage, I can't see myself using them again for a while, plus I kinda like going bigger than 10 man with my power armoured squads.

 

My local group are a mixture but I wouldn't say competitive, everyone plays good lists though.

 

I run Crimson Slaughter and I currently use 15 x Possessed with MoK & IoW led by a Sorcerer with Prophet of Voices & Balestar of Mannon.  I always take Prescience & then a mix of Divination and Biomancy, after casualties I basically get around 30 or so S6 attacks with re-rolls onto something.  Possessed are a still massively over-priced & their random roll is a tad annoying but all of the rolls are good and since they are troops now I can justify taking them - I just take 4 x 10 Cultists for my other troops & I do fine.

 

People can hate on Possessed CSMs all they want but I've always absolutely loved their fluff and artwork & now as troops they have a role irrespective of 'what's better than them', they can & do work.  My opponents are pretty sick when they see troops with S6 on the charge & either Shrouded - Beasts - 3++/Rending; in the 4 or so games I've run them they've ended up working out quite well for me and they just dominate the area of the table they're in & win pretty much all of the combats they find themselves in (although a DC Dread would utterly ruin them, good job I'm the other BA player in my area!).  I also take unit of 5-6 Nurgle bikes led by a Nurgle biker Lord with Daemonheart and Sword of the Relentless just to share the heat around.

 

-D

[the jeske]

I hate the way CSM threads always come back to someone saying 'you're better off just playing as Space Wolves'. Seriously, what kind of an answer is that? If any of us wanted to play Space Wolves (and I'm sure some of us do/have) then we would actually play Space Wolves - using Space Wolves models.

 

I play CSM because I love the models and the fluff, I don't want to bring my 2.5k painted Word Bearers to a game & then use a Space Wolves list/codex - that sucks & frankly that's not even close to what I want from the hobby.

It is not you better play SW, It is if you plan to take an icon[sw have those] and marks[sw have those too] and two specials[check on SW] ,a power weapon[sW can take 2, although they take 1 most of the time] and ultragrit[build in to SW] then GH are more  point efficient and SW aside for helldrakes everything else we have [as in all 3 codex] , making taking the ultragrit+mark+icon csm a bad choice . Now if other set ups of csm can be viable [big squads for builds with huron , 5man counter squads , 10 csm naked with just plasma] can be argued . Some of them were even ok , when 6th started and there was no Inq codex .

I don't understand the model part of your argument . what stops anyone from using csm models he owns with SW rules ? RP=sorc. GH=csm [with icons etc] , bikers=bikers , DP=bear lord or a TH/ES ally sm chapter master . There are no rules that say one has to play models with the rule for an army that are listed in the models name .

 

 

 

 

And really, that's all one can expect from a Champion is to win in a

mirror match. In this case, you're especially hoping that the other guy

left CCW off his squad leader as is the norm currently.

 

But the question with upgraded asp champions never was , how to make him more killy in , but how to keep him safe and cheap and get him in to melee in a shoting centered edition. Technicly we could run MoS csm asp champions with fist+claw and GoM [hoping for a good stat boost] , but all those upgrades would cost too much for the actualy effectivness we would be getting.

[Tenebris]

As I see it the following setup has the most credit and the most consensus:

 

Aspiring Champion:

- Melta Bombs

- Lightning Claw

- Veterans of the Long War

 

9x Chaos Space Marines

- Veterans of the Long War

- 2x Plasma Gun

 

For a total of: 200 points

 

Which makes an allrounder squad which lends well to infantry, Rhino or Infiltration role, with two special weapons as basis and the Melta Bombs as backup should some opportunity arise to tackle enemy armour. 

 

I think that the setup above is well balanced and overall a solid block for any Chaos army. Sure it has many problems but at least it is not a dead weight.

[Plague Angel]

There are no rules that say one has to play models with the rule for an army that are listed in the models name .

Okay, I realize I'm about to harp on semantics here, but I find the idea sort of interesting, so. It's important to remember that from GW's perspective, and also from the perspective of a lot of the rest of us, the rules exist for the sake of the models, not the models for the sake of the rules.

 

In fact, every codex does begin with the introduction, "the following book contains all the rules and information you need to turn your collection of [Army Name Here] models into a playable army." So yes, just like the rules technically say that all wargear options should be modelled on the unit, each codex specifies that the rules inside of it are for matching models (though it's debatable that the statement in question could hardly be considered a "rule" in itself). So Codex: Space Wolves is indeed for Space Wolf models, and so-on.

 

Counts-as is a gentlemen's-agreement to fudge the rules, and if I ever saw someone denying his opponent permission to counts-as his converted army, I'd tell him to his face that he is no gentleman. But even counts-as is there so that the rules bend the knee for the sake of a cool model, not the other way around. Just like any gentlemen's-agreement in 40k, counts-as is a way for mates to fudge or throw out rules that detract from the pleasure of putting their cool models on the table for fun, and that loose attitude towards the rules is advocated in codex and core book alike.

 

But that doesn't mean the marriage of model and codex entry isn't there. And even though someone denying you counts-as is probably just a big jerk you probably shouldn't be playing against, those jerks are out there in our hobby shops, tournaments, and even garages, so you probably shouldn't rely on counts-as being necessary to use your army.

[Nehekhare]

There are no "space wolf" models. They're all plastic/resin/metal. What they count as is up to you. Take that away and there is no hobby in the first place.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Let keep the discussion on "Chaos Space Marines" & how member are using this unit in there own Chaos Space Marines armies. 

 

IP

[minigun762]

As I see it the following setup has the most credit and the most consensus:

 

Aspiring Champion:

- Melta Bombs

- Lightning Claw

- Veterans of the Long War

 

9x Chaos Space Marines

- Veterans of the Long War

- 2x Plasma Gun

 

For a total of: 200 points

 

Which makes an allrounder squad which lends well to infantry, Rhino or Infiltration role, with two special weapons as basis and the Melta Bombs as backup should some opportunity arise to tackle enemy armour.

 

I think that the setup above is well balanced and overall a solid block for any Chaos army. Sure it has many problems but at least it is not a dead weight.

Main change I'd make is swap to Melta guns instead. Minor point savings but the assault weapons allow you to shoot and charge.