Scions and the Inquisition

[Inquisitor Fox]

Alright, so Codex: Stormtroopers hit and changed my world, again.

This time though, I'd like to open it up to the community and get a few viewpoints and bounce some ideas around for other people like myself. I know I'm not the only person that is ecstatic to get our IST's back. But, how does this affect our list building?

Codex: Militarum Tempestus as a primary with allied Codex: Inquisition allows us to have up to 6 Scion units and 3 Valkyries, but none of the Inquisitorial warbands will score.

Codex: Inquisition allows us scoring warbands, but restricts us to only 2 Scion units and a single Valkyrie. In addition, we have to pick a Commissar OR a command squad for the Scions. One is cheaper and fun, the other is more expensive, has a transport capability, and adds orders.

In either event we get the same options from Codex: Inquisition (assuming no Force Org chart doubling).

So how do we make this work?

In my own situation, I'm looking strongly at Codex: Inquisition as the primary and Codex: Militarum Tempestus as allies. The reason being is A) thematic (the Inquisition is in charge, duh. I kind of favor them after all.) and B ) points/scoring oriented. Two Scion units with Taurox Prime transports is roughly um.. 560 points plus the HQ (prolly a Commissar for me as I have those already) so lets say 660 points. Add a Valkyrie for a Scions fast attack that brings me up to say 800, then my Land Raider and 2 Chimeras as warband transports and that's another 445 and I'm sitting at 1250 pretty easily. 1450 for 2 Inquisitor HQs, and 150 or so for a close combat retinue and I'm at 1600.

That leaves me about 200-400 points for 2 additional retinues and I have a nice neat 1850-2000 point army. Here's the questions:

A) Will it work? That's 2 Scion units, 1 Close Combat unit, 2 yet undetermined henchmen warbands, and a Land Raider w/ multi-melta and psybolts, Valkyrie w/ multi-laser, rocket pods and heavy bolters, 2 Chimeras with psybolts, 2 heavy bolters and stormbolters, 2 Taurox Primes (probably with missiles, auto-cannons and storm bolters), hordes of hunter killer missiles all over. 5 scoring units and 6 Vehicles is fairly respectable numbers for units on the table, but can the units do enough damage to actually play the game?

B ) What to do with the mystery units! A second close combat unit? Ranged support? Wacky Inquisition things? 200 points is a decent amount of space but nothing too crazy

C) Am I out of my gourd? Are we really better off allying to a Scions force and forgoing scoring or transports for everything? Scion units themselves are relatively expensive (Marine priced) so it seems like going with Scions as the main bulk of the force will run into a points crunch before a force org crunch.

Thoughts, opinions, or am I the only guy working this out?

[Kenderleech]

Inquisition primary (scoring)   Inquisition inquisitorial detachment with coteaz (scoring) and then allied scions.   Rock on air cav.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can take Valks as DT for Inquisitorial Warbands.

 

Edit:

 

Inq Primary.  That nets you three scoring Warbands.

 

Inq detachment (without Coteaz).  Use this for three Warrior x3 Squads with Valk rides.

 

Can't remember off the top of my head what the FoC for Scions is.  Would you mind letting me know?

 

I'm sure there's a way to fit in everything you want.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

This looks really good -- I know what my next army will be! Lots of scoring units, good armour saturation, and a variety of weapons. I do think, though, that in terms of flyers you should "go big or go home" so either bring none, or at least 2-3 especially now that there are more AA options out there (and you should probably go with the "big" route, since otherwise you have no AA).

 

A way to get more Scions into the list is to bring one of their formations. Granted, they are fairly pricey since you need to bring a lot, but it seems like the best way to have scoring henchmen and more than 2 Scion units. As an example, a minimum sized Airborne Assault Formation would have a commissar, a command squad, three 5-man Scion squads, and four Valkyries. If you max-out on either meltaguns or volleyguns you're looking at about 900 points. The Ground Assault Formation would be 180 points cheaper if you went with stock Taurox Primes.

 

I don't think you need to make Inquisition your primary detachment to maintain the theme -- you can make your Inquisitor your warlord even if he's not in the primary detachment. Having scoring henchmen is very attractive, though.

 

So, looking at your list (all of this being completely academic of course), I think it needs more than one Valkyrie as mentioned above. I don't know if the Airborne Assault Formation is the answer or not ... it might be a bit unbalanced since you'd be left with only your Land Raider and two chimeras on the ground. That isn't awful but it's not great either -- I'd feel more comfortable with better armour saturation myself (although you'd have plenty of saturation in the air and re-rolling your grav-chute instertion which could be huge). I'd be inclined to go with Militarum Tempestus primary and take Coteaz as one of your Inquisition choices as this will give you more flexibility. Maybe go two Scions in Valks and another two in Taurox Primes to accompany the =][= element?

[Inquisitor Fox]

According to initial scouting reports here Scions are just a Troops choice in their Codex, with HQs of a Command Squad or Commissar, and FA of a Valkyrie. Taurox Primes are the only dedicated transport.

This is why I thought they'd work very well as an allied force for the Inquisition. Especially given the favorable allies matrix with the IG

I also think it'd work well as an allied force with a double force org. For example:

INQ HQ A

(optional hq A)

(optional elites A)

(optional elites A)

(optional elites A)

INQ HQ B

(optional hq B )

(optional elites B )

(optional elites B )

(optional elites B )

SCION HQ C

SCION Troops C

(optional troops C)

(optional fast attack C)

SCION HQ D

SCION Troops D

(optional troops D)

(optional fast attack D)

Tell me that isn't an appealing double force org, even without an additional INQ Detachment (E and/or F).

So it's sounding like people think it's feasible... now, how would you all consider the "best" way for Henchmen units to back up Scion Troops? Cheap with bolters? Psykers? Plasma bunker? Close combat? What'cha think?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd just use Henchmen dude. Scions don't bring anything but higher point costs to the table. They pay an absurd amount for carapace and hotshots, and some mediocre orders. Meh. 

[Inquisitor Fox]

They come in at one point cheaper than an equivalently armed henchmen, have a pretty decent transport, and an additional point of Ballistic Skill.  *Shrugs*  Technically they could deep strike off mystics as well ;)  It's an equivalent replacement to our old IST's with a few new tricks.

[IndigoJack]

They're definitely better than henchman, and the tempestus orders are pretty solid from my experience with them. IMO, it's the alternate deployment options (DS/Outflank) and their BS4 that make them worthwhile.

[Shaolin_Monkey]

Grey Knights and Tempestus are battle brothers lets not forget.

I am aiming for the following:

Tempestus primary; few command squads few scion squads

Ally slot; Grey Knight codex with Coteaz and some scoring henchmen (and likely a Vindicare just cos)

Inquisitorial detachment for the 2 extra inquisitors.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Why would I ever bother with carapace or hotshot lasguns? They're T3, there is no point.

 

The alternate deployment is nice, but they're still only good for suicide melta/plasma.

 

Henchmen also come with servitors, Razorback/Chimera access, Troop status, and a proper parent codex (Knights).

 

BS4 is nice, but it doesn't pay off on models 1pt less expensive than a Marine. Even Tac Marines can and will win a shootout, nevermind melee. Hell even storm bolter Henchmen come in at nearly half the price of Scions.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've found a huge difference between a 5+ and a 4+ save, T3 or not. The real difference is you get a save against bolters and pulse weaponry. Simply being able to roll the die and have your losses cut by 50% is huge.

Allow me to also put it this way. One squad of Scions, without any psychic powers to buff them, will kill half a squad of marines per shooting phase if within 9 inches.

7 hotshot lasguns are 14 shots, which are 9.3338 hits, which are 3.1110 dead Marines.

1 hotshot laspistol is 1 shot, .6667 hits, which is another .2222 dead Marine.

2 plasma gunners is 4 shots, which is 2.6668 hits, which is 2.2223 dead Marines.

In total 5.5555 dead Marines.

Lets buff them with Prescience.

7 hotshot lasguns are 14 shots, 12.4447 hits with re-rolls, which are 4.1478 dead Marines.

1 hotshot laspistol is 1 shot, .8889 hits with re-rolls, which is another .2963 dead Marine.

2 plasma gunners is 4 shots, 3.5556 hits with re-rolls, which are 2.9630 dead Marines.

7.4071 dead Marines.

I'd hardly call that a waste of points.

Carapace Armor instead of Flak Armor is a huge upgrade. All of a sudden instead of taking off a model from every basic bolter wound you cut those losses in half instantly. They offer a strong offensive punch against MEQ targets, even with a S3 weapon due to the inherent AP value. Prescience makes a noticeable difference in their offensive kill count. A lot of Marine lists only have a handful of targets anyway, and with just two squads of Scions a Marine unit a turn dies and is wiped off the board. Add this to close combat retinues (which are relatively effective despite being a little squishy) and some vehicle damage output, screens, and transportation to get to select targets and you're looking at something relatively effective, IMO.

Yes Carapace Armor isn't Power Armor. Yes a 4+ isn't as sexy as a 3+ or a 2+. But it's so much better than a 5+ it becomes a no brainer whenever I have the option. I'd much rather get a save against bolters than not, since just about every basic troop you'll find is armed with a bolter equivalent

EDIT: I acknowledge you have a chance at losing a plasma gunner in there, less so if you activate Prescience and get to reroll the 1's. Nothing is perfect.

[Gentlemanloser]

RD's hit the nail on the head. basically.

 

Until GK get redone (and C:I *at the same time...  It *has* to be....), and the ridiculously cheap henchmen go (which they will.  there is no way on earth they will stay....), then most 'normal' humans will pale in comparison to them.

 

Add to that C:I giving them as BB to just about everyone that counts, and well.

 

Why bother with new units?

 

INP, how much did that Scion squad cost?

 

I'd like to see the numbers of an equivalent cost of Warrior Accolytes with Bolters in Rapid Fire Range. ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

7 bolters fire 14 shots, 9.3338 hits, 6.2228 wounds, 3.1114 dead Scions (see the difference of Carapace Armor there?)

1 bolt pistol fires 1 shot, .6667 hits, .4445 wounds, .2223 dead Scions

2 plasma gun shots for 1.3334 hits, 1.1111 dead Scions

1 missile launcher shot (on a snap shot sometimes, but we'll assume he stood still) for .6667 hits, .5556 dead Scions

 

In total, 5.0004 dead Scions.

 

Scions won the shootout, especially with Prescience.

 

They are far better than you're painting them.

 

EDIT: Lets also look at 12 stormbolter henchmen.

 

24 shots at BS3 is 12 hits, is 6 wounds against Marines, is 2 dead Marines per shooting phase.  Lets add rerolls so it's 18 hits, 9 Wounds, and 3 Dead Marines.

 

That doesn't compare to 5 to 7.5 or so dead Marines in a shooting phase.  Even if we don't assume Rapid Fire range and halve the Scions numbers, the Scions kill more Marines in a shooting phase and are twice as durable to enemy shooting due to the Carapace Armor.

[Gentlemanloser]

I was talking about a larger amount of Warriors Boltering Marines. ;)

 

A Bolter Warrior is 5 points, how many of them can you get for that Scion Squad?  (I suppose we should also include 3 Plasma Gun Warriors as well...)

[Inquisitor Fox]

Since a Scion is 12 points, roughly 2 for 1.  Scions have twice the damage output without Prescience of a Storm Bolter, more than twice with Prescience, and have twice the durability against enemy bolters.  They come with grenades, deep strike and move through cover, and make just about as much use with two special weapons per unit.  They also have access to a cheap BS4 transport with pretty decent weaponry.

 

EDIT: Sorry, just saw the edited question on cost.

 

That Scion squad, according to the White Dwarf, is pretty basic and no frills (just the 2 plasmas) and costs 160 points.

 

It's equivalent in terms of number of bolter Henchmen (just flak armor and bolter) is 32 peoples of Hench.

 

32 bolters in rapid fire range is 64 shots, 32 hits, 16 wounds, 5.3333 dead Marines.  The difference in armor save will come when those Henchmen begin to take return fire.  Prescience becomes harder to measure over at least 3 squads though.

 

Also, 32 Henchmen is at least 3 slots worth of Force Org compared to a single slot worth of Scions.

[Gentlemanloser]

Three times the wounds and CC attacks (I'm guessing here) though. ;)

 

And with Primaris Psykers being Battle Brothers, Divination shouldn't be an issue.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Scion codex doesn't have Primaris Psykers.  I meant that having 3 psykers to Prescience each of the 3 henchmen bolter squads for a comparison.  The Scions matched the damage output with their non-Prescience numbers so it was okay.

 

I do concede the point about wounds and close combat numbers.  It's also then still the 3 elite Henchmen slots vs 1 allied Troop slot.  Also, taking the 1 unit of Scions frees up those henchmen slots for other uses (psykers, long range low AP fire, close combat retinues, etc) or simply something to take in addition to your squads of henchmen after you've filled your slots with flak armored bolters ;)

 

In short, it's a viable decent option.  It's a new tool that we should examine.  We should think of combos of deep striking by mystics or servo skulls, or simply having a Marine quality warrior as a Battle Brother.  We got our IST's back, and they came back in style.

[Gentlemanloser]

Allied IG for Primaris.  You can take the Scions in the new IG dex as well, can't you?

 

Run GK Henchmen with Coteaz for the 6 slots. ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

They're an Elites choice for a platoon (ish) in the IG Codex I believe instead of Troops choices.  Makes the numbers a bit more squirrly as you have to still take a Troops choice of Guard.

 

Coteaz with units of bolter Acolytes seems a waste of potential.  The economics of the opportunity cost makes my brain hurt :)

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I've always had good success with Storm Troopers, even when they were 16 points a pop in Codex: Imperial Guard. I'm sure the new Scions will work.

 

At the end of the day I don't particularly care if they work, though, the "rule of cool" demands that I run them anyway. I've always had at least one squad of =][= storm troopers in any of my armies since Codex: With Hunters days and they've never let me down. That's why I don't believe in mathhammer.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I've found a huge difference between a 5+ and a 4+ save, T3 or not.  The real difference is you get a save against bolters and pulse weaponry.  Simply being able to roll the die and have your losses cut by 50% is huge.

I can pretty reliably guarantee that in this edition of 'armour save lel what are they', nobody else will notice. Also, as I keep getting back to, T3 means you get wounded very easily (most small arms on at worst a 4+, more commonly 3+ or 2+, and any serious anti-infantry will likely be AP4 anyway). Nobody cares about 4+ armour, people barely worry about 3+ armour these days. 

 

 

Allow me to also put it this way.  One squad of Scions, without any psychic powers to buff them, will kill half a squad of marines per shooting phase if within 9 inches.

 

Okay, if you got within 9" of a Marine squad and weren't already either shot to pieces or in melee, they're by definition a bad player and deserve to lose. We can run all the nice theoreticals (which I won't quote for the sake of brevity, but yes I did read them, AP3 ignores power armour, whee), but in a real game, how often are Scions gonna get within range to do their magic? Not often. 18" is punishingly bad for such a specialised weapon, and being S3 makes it laughable outside of rapid-fire. 

 

 

INP, how much did that Scion squad cost?

 

70 points for Sarge+4 dudes, 12 points per model thereafter, specials are usual 10-15 points apiece (2 per squad, regardless of size). Storm bolter Henchmen come in at 7pts a model, 11pts if I upgrade to carapace (although why I would ever bother escapes me). Like I said, Scions are a complete joke. GW doesn't understand that T3 doesn't live long at all, and S3 is too weak even with AP3 tacked on to matter. Scions are so bad they make Thousand Sons look good. 

 

I've always had good success with Storm Troopers, even when they were 16 points a pop in Codex: Imperial Guard. I'm sure the new Scions will work.

 

At the end of the day I don't particularly care if they work, though, the "rule of cool" demands that I run them anyway. I've always had at least one squad of =][= storm troopers in any of my armies since Codex: With Hunters days and they've never let me down. That's why I don't believe in mathhammer.

>I don't believe in math

We're not really talking about math, we're talking about effectiveness. Henchmen are about twice as effective, they come in bigger squads, have access to more special weapons, they're scoring by default (because when are you ever NOT taking Coteaz), have access to servitors and monkeys should you feel like it, and they have better transports. I think the new models look great, I'll definitely be buying some. But I'm not using GW's retarded rules for them. They don't understand their own game, we've had three codex releases now that prove that. IG at least got some cool new stuff and overall are not worse (but they did lose some power), so fingers crossed Orks isn't a trainwreck. 

[Kenderleech]

Ive actually been running them. They are doin better then my bolterbacks.

 

List

 

Coteaz

OMI hellrifle, prescience

 

3 bolter acolytes, bolterback, psybolt

ditto

ditto

ditto

5 psykers, 3 plasma servs

7 crusaders, 4 DCA

 

callidus

vindicare

 

Bastion, quad gun

 

stock commisar

 

5 scions, 2 melta

5 scions, 2 grenade launcher

 

legion of the damned, multimelta, plasmagun

Ditto

 

OMI TDA psycannon, psyker

OXI PA psyker rad trokes plasma pistol 2 servos

 

Yes, it looks janky as all get out, but nothing is safe from it. its played 7 games, and the one it lost was to sisters of battle/inquisition by losing warlord on turn 7 when celestine jumped back up.

 

 

 

edit in reply to RD who posted while i was posting To get within 9 inches, you deepstrike there.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Interesting list. What are your regular opponents? 

 

edit in reply to RD who posted while i was posting To get within 9 inches, you deepstrike there. 

 

The Interceptor rule would like a word with you...so would 4th edition era bubble wrap

[Gentlemanloser]

And I thought my Knights had low count fragile scoring. I can't see how you could control objectives or aim to table opponents with a hench / scion list like that. I find it far too fragile.

 

Hmmm. Maybe the Legion give the staying power. They only score if primary though don't they.

 

I do love the use of cramming 4 codexes into a single list. Hats off for that! :)

 

but now I want to see one using 5! There's still the ally detachment to use! :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dude, don't forget formations ;) you could still field some Riptides or Stormtalons