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Scions and the Inquisition

Inquisitor Fox

By Inquisitor Fox
in + GREY KNIGHTS +

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Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

Posted
Posted

That's EZ.  (You need to add a stipulation to make it actually playable!)

 

Primary: GK;

HQ: Coteaz (100)

Troop: Warrior x3 (12)

Troop: Warrior x3 (12)

 

Allied: SM;

HQ: Libby (65)

Troop: Scouts x5 (55)

 

Inquisitorial;

HQ: Inquisitor (25)

 

Militarum Tempestus;

HQ: Commisar (25)

Troop: Scions (70)

 

Legion of the Damned;

Elite: LotD (125)

 

Total: 489

 

Legal army utilising 5 Codexes.

 

Now, the job is to make this a workable army. ;)

 

And if you've any spare points to throw in a Tau Formation, well, that's just gravy!

Nicodemus Doloroso Venerable Brother

Nicodemus Doloroso

Posted
Posted

 


 


I've always had good success with Storm Troopers, even when they were 16 points a pop in Codex: Imperial Guard. I'm sure the new Scions will work.

 

At the end of the day I don't particularly care if they work, though, the "rule of cool" demands that I run them anyway. I've always had at least one squad of =][= storm troopers in any of my armies since Codex: With Hunters days and they've never let me down. That's why I don't believe in mathhammer.

>I don't believe in math

We're not really talking about math, we're talking about effectiveness. Henchmen are about twice as effective, they come in bigger squads, have access to more special weapons, they're scoring by default (because when are you ever NOT taking Coteaz), have access to servitors and monkeys should you feel like it, and they have better transports. I think the new models look great, I'll definitely be buying some. But I'm not using GW's retarded rules for them. They don't understand their own game, we've had three codex releases now that prove that. IG at least got some cool new stuff and overall are not worse (but they did lose some power), so fingers crossed Orks isn't a trainwreck. 

 

 

When I say I don't believe in "mathhammer", what I mean is that I don't believe in crunching the numbers like this in a vacuum. It's the same sort of logic that has said for years that all kinds of stuff is "garbage" that actually does work, maybe it just takes a little more subtlety and finesse. That is not the same as saying "I don't believe in math" at all.

 

I don't find such overly negative attitudes as yours particularly helpful to my enjoyment of the game. I certainly don't find the quest for what's "most effective" over what's fun/cool/thematic contributes to my enjoyment of the hobby either. And again, people will have different experience of what's effective. Sure, it is anecdotal, but I don't see how my experience with the old 16 point Storm Troopers is worthless and only your experience is worthwhile. I don't use Coteaz ever so I guess that makes me doubly an idiot and unworthy to play the game. Or maybe just a retard like the games designers. Frankly, reading posts like the above, that call GW's rules "retarded" can only detract from peoples' enjoyment of the game and is not constructive in any way.

Shaolin_Monkey Battle-Brother

Shaolin_Monkey

Posted
Posted

That's EZ. (You need to add a stipulation to make it actually playable!)

 

Primary: GK;

HQ: Coteaz (100)

Troop: Warrior x3 (12)

Troop: Warrior x3 (12)

 

Allied: SM;

HQ: Libby (65)

Troop: Scouts x5 (55)

 

Inquisitorial;

HQ: Inquisitor (25)

 

Militarum Tempestus;

HQ: Commisar (25)

Troop: Scions (70)

 

Legion of the Damned;

Elite: LotD (125)

 

Total: 489

 

Legal army utilising 5 Codexes.

 

Now, the job is to make this a workable army. ;)

 

And if you've any spare points to throw in a Tau Formation, well, that's just gravy!

Nope. Not legal that one. Tempestus uses up a normal ally/primary slot unless you take one of the two formations sorry.

Kenderleech Battle-Brother

Kenderleech

Posted
Posted

The scions are using the allied detach.. but i could cut the psykers, the hellrifle, the bastion... lets see.. thats 305.. the TDA.. 415.. BAM  allied imperial knight paladin.   5 'dexes.  40 points to spend. at 1850.   and no one kills 3 guys with bolters when you hide them on your objectives.  not till Everything else is dead.   its fun to watch.

 

 

Ok, yea interceptor is the suck, when you have 5 units arriving from deepstrike.   But everyone goes after the callidus anyways, because, ooo scary.   and who the heck bubblewraps the Marines from your example, RD?

Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

Posted
Posted

Well, the largest thing going for them is the ability to Deep Strike.

 

If you're using a GK list that Deep Strikes heavily.

 

You can compliment that with Scions, unlike our Henchmen options.

 

And they can also benefit from Mystics and Servo Skulls.

Nicodemus Doloroso Venerable Brother

Nicodemus Doloroso

Posted
Posted

Well the Airborne Assault formation is very hard to pass up: you can keep inquisition as primary and still bring 4 un-squadroned Valkyries, you get to re-roll your grav-chute insertion scatter, and you get split fire and twin linked the turn you drop. That's a pretty potent alpha strike plus the imagery of all those scions jumping out of Valkyries is one of the more awesome images I can imagine.

 

The downside is that it's pretty pricey. Four Valkyries, a commissar, a scion command squad, and four scion squads with special weapons will weigh in at about 1100 points. That doesn't leave a lot on the ground especially at 1500 points.

 

The ground assault formation is kind of "meh" but I guess pinning and twin-linked could be useful when you disembark. But again it's pricey and you'd likely not have enough left for Valkyries.

 

A compromise solution might be to bring a squadron of 2 Valkyries allied-in as the fast attack choice. You only get two allied scion troops so they could both be in there or have one in a Taurox prime and a command squad in the second Valk. Then fill out the list with henchmen.

 

If you want more than 25 Scions it seems your only options are make then primary, or use a formation. You could bring 35 scions as an Imperial Guard elite choice but I wouldn't recommend that since they wouldn't be scoring.

Reclusiarch Darius Veteran

Reclusiarch Darius

Posted
Posted

 

 

When I say I don't believe in "mathhammer", what I mean is that I don't believe in crunching the numbers like this in a vacuum. It's the same sort of logic that has said for years that all kinds of stuff is "garbage" that actually does work, maybe it just takes a little more subtlety and finesse. That is not the same as saying "I don't believe in math" at all.

Which is precisely my point. We can look at Scions and go 'oooh, if you get within 9", and rapid-fire, and cast 'Prescience' on them, and the enemy don't have cover or invul, and are T3....' which is fun I grant you. But in an actual game, T3 4+ save infantry are dead meat to most lists. Keep in mind, 6th is an edition where even Marines barely matter to most shooting armies, and that's with substantially better T4 and 3+ saves. So yeah, I completely agree, looking at raw DPS is useless, because Scions are usually dead or not in range in a real game. 

 

I don't find such overly negative attitudes as yours particularly helpful to my enjoyment of the game. I certainly don't find the quest for what's "most effective" over what's fun/cool/thematic contributes to my enjoyment of the hobby either. And again, people will have different experience of what's effective. Sure, it is anecdotal, but I don't see how my experience with the old 16 point Storm Troopers is worthless and only your experience is worthwhile. I don't use Coteaz ever so I guess that makes me doubly an idiot and unworthy to play the game. Or maybe just a retard like the games designers. Frankly, reading posts like the above, that call GW's rules "retarded" can only detract from peoples' enjoyment of the game and is not constructive in any way.

That's your perogative. I'm not saying you should feel bad for using Scions, I'm pointing out they're a terrible unit badly designed by GW. I don't see why you feel the need to take my criticisms of GW and their terrible rules personally. Not using Coteaz is again your choice, I think he's what makes Henchmen viable. 12pts a model is absurd, even at 10 I'd be on the fence about Scions. 8-9pts is really where they should be. 

 

Ok, yea interceptor is the suck, when you have 5 units arriving from deepstrike.   But everyone goes after the callidus anyways, because, ooo scary.   and who the heck bubblewraps the Marines from your example, RD?

Imperial Guard. Marines don't commonly need bubble wrap though. Most of their viable builds revolve around Drop Pods or Bikers. 

 

Well, the largest thing going for them is the ability to Deep Strike.

 

If you're using a GK list that Deep Strikes heavily.

 

You can compliment that with Scions, unlike our Henchmen options.

 

And they can also benefit from Mystics and Servo Skulls.

That's true. I suppose they're better than Henchmen for suicide melta/plasma. An all DS list is hard to pull off this edition though, due to stupid Reserve rules and the utterly retarded 'lol you have no models on the board you auto-lose' rule. 

 

A compromise solution might be to bring a squadron of 2 Valkyries allied-in as the fast attack choice. You only get two allied scion troops so they could both be in there or have one in a Taurox prime and a command squad in the second Valk. Then fill out the list with henchmen. 

In that scenario I'd honestly rather have Veterans. An extra BS4 special weapon, they're Troops in the AM codex, and you can always add a demo charge as well for even more alpha-punch. The Airborne Assault formation is pretty hot though, has some nice free buffs thrown in. 

 

If you want more than 25 Scions it seems your only options are make then primary, or use a formation. You could bring 35 scions as an Imperial Guard elite choice but I wouldn't recommend that since they wouldn't be scoring.

I really don't understand that decision. No one is going to take them in AM, so their inclusion as Elites is mystifying. Making them Troops but requiring a Lord Commissar or something would've worked fine, they're still pricier than Veterans or Infantry Platoons. But I guess then no one would buy the MT codex (shrug) 

Nicodemus Doloroso Venerable Brother

Nicodemus Doloroso

Posted
Posted

So here's what I've been kicking around in my head as a 1500 pt list to use as an example, using the stuff I have/want to illustrate the possibilities. Keep in mind just spitballing/brainstorming here to get an idea of points -- special weapons could be changed as deemed most appropriate.

 

Primary Detachment

 

HQ

 

Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor - Psyker, force sword, power armour, 2x servo skulls (69)

 

ELITE


Inq. Henchmen - 2x crusader, 4x DCA, priest, 3x acolyte, Land Raider (352)

 

Inq. Henchmen - Some sort of shooty/funky mix,Chimera (~150)

 

Subtotal = 621

 

Secondary/Militarum Tempestus Detachment

 

HQ

 

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad w/ 4x Hotshot Volleygun (105)

 

TROOP

 

Scions x10 w/ 2x meltagun (150)

 

Scions x10 w/ 2x plasmagun, Taurox Prime w/ gatling cannon (250)

 

FAST

 

Valkyrie squadron - 2 Valkyries, both with Lascannon (270)

 

Subtotal: 775

 

Total = 1,396 so about 100 points left over for some more goodies. Maybe another small henchman squad in a chimera, some more toys, a couple commissars? I like it already. 25 Scion models, 2 flyers, 4 ground vehicles, 20 or so henchmen. Looks like fun. Pure joy to model and paint. I'm sold! ;) I'm going to start building towards something like this once I'm done with my IG. Already am building the Inquisitor and close combat henchmen for attachment to the IG list, plus I have 10 Kasrkin painted in =][= colours (although I love the Scion models so I will likely upgrade)

Nicodemus Doloroso Venerable Brother

Nicodemus Doloroso

Posted
Posted

That's true and it's definitely an option.

 

Maybe I'm way off base here, and I'll admit I've NEVER fielded a Valkyrie, but it seems to me that having them in a squadron would be a benefit with this list. I envision putting one Scion squad and the Tempestus Command Squad into the Valkyries. Having the Valkyries squadroned would ensure that they always arrive together on the same turn, plus I would be keeping them close anyway so when I do the Grav-chute Insertion the Command Squad and Scions will be within orders range of each other. When using them for anti-air duties I'd probably use them in tandem also given that these are not Vendettas.

 

Inquisitor Nicole Pyykkonen -- look at what you've done! You've got me sufficiently excited about this idea to start a new army LOL.

Reclusiarch Darius Veteran

Reclusiarch Darius

Posted
Posted

 

Maybe I'm way off base here, and I'll admit I've NEVER fielded a Valkyrie, but it seems to me that having them in a squadron would be a benefit with this list. I envision putting one Scion squad and the Tempestus Command Squad into the Valkyries. Having the Valkyries squadroned would ensure that they always arrive together on the same turn, plus I would be keeping them close anyway so when I do the Grav-chute Insertion the Command Squad and Scions will be within orders range of each other. When using them for anti-air duties I'd probably use them in tandem also given that these are not Vendettas.

Yeah squadrons are definitely better, doubly so if you can manipulate Reserves somehow. Also yeah, if you're dropping stuff like T3 infantry out, you generally get one shot at it, so you might as well focus your efforts. 

 

 

Can't really decide whether to go heavy on Valkyries or Taurox though... 
 
Taurox depress me because GW gave them a bunch of cool weapon options (including the autocannon turret they've always denied Chimeras since 4th, only Forge World has rules for it), but AV11 and a stupid price tag. I'd totally recommend them if they were AV12. In that context, Valks are probably best, as they're less easily killed and you can basically alpha-strike wherever you want (as Valks can fly over any obstacles like terrain or bubblewrap). 
Nicodemus Doloroso Venerable Brother

Nicodemus Doloroso

Posted
Posted

Speaking of manipulating reserves, that strikes me as a reason to bring Militarum Tempestus as the primary -- that way you can ally-in some Astra Militarum, namely a company command squad with Officer of the Fleet for +1 to reserves, and then some cheap troops choice. Could maybe do some veterans instead of henchmen in Chimera to accompany the Land Raider.

Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

Posted
Posted

Expect the first IG FAQ (when we finally get it) to errata that to "only applies to units taken from Codex AM"...

 

Just like every other similar ability.

 

Now, when all those got FAQed ages ago, you'd figure that GW should have got it right this time, and that wouldn't be required.

 

I guess they'll just claim "worded with 6.5th/7th in mind where allies no longer exists!!!!".

 

;)

Reclusiarch Darius Veteran

Reclusiarch Darius

Posted
Posted

Speaking of manipulating reserves, that strikes me as a reason to bring Militarum Tempestus as the primary -- that way you can ally-in some Astra Militarum, namely a company command squad with Officer of the Fleet for +1 to reserves, and then some cheap troops choice. Could maybe do some veterans instead of henchmen in Chimera to accompany the Land Raider.

Yeah I guess that's not a bad use of the Command squad. As others have mentioned though, they'll probably FAQ it to not work on non-AM units. Le sigh...

Might I point out one of our oft talked about psychic powers... Psychic Communion that allows any Inquisitor to manipulate reserves? biggrin.png

Probably not a bad use of your third or fourth Inquisitor to be a 'Communion' caster. Coteaz+1-2 Inquisitors for 'Prescience' is probably enough.

Heh. Some interesting Not-Stormtroopers to go with an Inquisition themed army on Kickstarter. Wish the weapons looked better though.
Wow they are bad. I know it's a Kickstarter project...but man.

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