[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[defl0]

 

 

 I'm not big on the concept of 20 man squads for RG though as they tend to be point sinks and priority targets for the big guns as well as being harder to use infiltrate for.

 

Hey don't knock it till you try it. It's all about how you look at it. 10 tacs do nothing. It's sunk cost... but add 10 discounted tacs with extra ccw and infiltrate and fleet are scary when they are fearless. It's the cheapest S4 attack in the game and this squad does it enmass and rerolls to hit. Even with crack grenades, 2 meltas if you want them. Even if you double tap your opponent with fotl and they charge you. Now add a shield plus free power axe on the chappy. So you are knocking them to I1 with grav cannons blinding them with your defensive grenades on your shield. And if they shoot you, you are +1 cover save with camo. And screw them, you want them shooting yur tacs! Plus Chappys are cheap and awesome with RG.

 

Plus no one shoots them when you are going first and dumping mordeythan with scouting infiltrating rhinos down their throats and blasting them with grav cannons. 

 

It seems weak on paper but they man handle almost anything in hth in the game, or tie it up, which is often just as good.

BTW - my thoughts on democlese are that they would be great in an air force list. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

We have very different lists; I have a drop msu and you seem to have mech. Also I always face scorpiuses and we don't use area terrain (directional and LoS only) so they're instantly a target for it.

 

My tac squads are for disruption on the drop and crippling their scoring units, I have enough implacable advance to make up for it

[GreyCrow]

@Mohawk : You should definitely use area terrain though... the barrage rules are balanced on that. In terms of game fluff, a ruin has enough rubble in it to not be "open" like it looks on the tabletop :)

 

____

 

On another note, I've got good news for you guys ! I'm still looking to get into the Heresy and still trying to find the one Legion to get in (hence why I stalk this thread from the Shadows :p ). Previously, my choice bogged down to 3 Legions : Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Alpha Legion.

 

I've recently decided to take out the Ultramarines from the list, because even though I really love their fluff, let's be honest the 40k Space Marines Codex regardless of Chapter has a very Ultramarines feel to it (in terms of force structure, layout, etc).

I was hesitant to go for the Raven Guard early on due to them being my army in 40k, but the recent rules changes really drove them more towards playing like Ultramarines, and I'm not really sure I want to have 2 similar armies in both 30 and 40k :p

 

So yeah, one step closer to (re)joigning the Sons of Corax ! :p

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea no, area terrain gives me cancer. It removes all thought process or forms of counter play other than the equally brainless removes cover. We use the ruins rules from 6th (as there are no terrain rules anymore) so you can hide under the floors to not be targeted. We also can't pass through walls; only doors and gaps large enough to fit the base through. All of this makes the game way more tactical and enjoyable for my group, but you can see how blobs aren't as viable unless you can get a realllllly good position

[GreyCrow]

Well, it's a question of ease to use compared to realism :) You can't really model rubble well enough to provide a cover save and avoid the wobbly (in that case unstable :p ) model syndrome ;) I personally feel that these rules are making it more interesting for low model count armies over blobs and I'm not sure it's a good thing, but hey I won't tell you how to play your games ;)

 

The rules we use in our gaming group are from the ETC, where area terrain (ruin bases, forests, etc) provide a 5+ cover saves while direct obstruction from walls provide a 4+ cover. It seems to work well enough while not being too cheesy (making Tyranids as tough as Marines when they get a foot in cover).

Also we use the same rules as you regarding floors. 6th ed floors were good enough, now the fact that you can spray an entire building with flamers or blasts hitting all floors make us cringe :p

 

I'm campaigning for cover save rules for MCs being the same as vehicles (25% true obscuration) to avoid the foot in cover shenanigans, but to no avail so far :p

[SkimaskMohawk]

I can understand how the rules aren't for everyone, especially larger model count armies vs barrage where it can become frustrating, but it tends to be a lot of marine varieties and tau being played, so it really becomes more tactical with movement being extremely important to get a good position. Kind of xcom esq. Also when we practice for tournaments that use ITC we generally just take the scorpius with ignores cover and call it a day lol

[GreyCrow]

And out of curiosity, do you guys usually infiltrate foot sloggers or do you give them a  dedicated transport ? :)

[SkimaskMohawk]

I tend to use foot sloggers more, my friend uses transports

[coloroutofspace]

Ok, so which units do you tend to infiltrate, what do you put in pods, and do you ever outflank?

[GreyCrow]

Ok, so which units do you tend to infiltrate, what do you put in pods, and do you ever outflank?

 

Great question, I'm really curious to see the answer !

 

I'd also love to have reports on alpha strike tactics and units, with how well they performed on the tabletop ! A Decapitating Strike list with Maun, Mor Deythan squads to set up positions early game, waiting for a massive drop by the Troops seems pretty funky and tasty.

 

I'm also curious to see how you integrates Assault Marines/Jump Infantry/Dark Furies in a Raven Guard Decapitating Strike army. Obviously Legion Tactical Squads in Pods are going to be the name of the game for the main Troops, but I'm really curious nonetheless.

[defl0]

 

Ok, so which units do you tend to infiltrate, what do you put in pods, and do you ever outflank?

 

Great question, I'm really curious to see the answer !

 

I'd also love to have reports on alpha strike tactics and units, with how well they performed on the tabletop ! A Decapitating Strike list with Maun, Mor Deythan squads to set up positions early game, waiting for a massive drop by the Troops seems pretty funky and tasty.

 

I'm also curious to see how you integrates Assault Marines/Jump Infantry/Dark Furies in a Raven Guard Decapitating Strike army. Obviously Legion Tactical Squads in Pods are going to be the name of the game for the main Troops, but I'm really curious nonetheless.

 

 

 

Infiltrators:

- grav cannons - to get shots without cover saves

- 20 tacs with ccws, sgt with power axe and MBs and a chaplain with strom shield, camo, power axe and MBs.

- 10 tacs in a rhino w. search light

- 5 mor deythan w. combi flamers in a rhino 

- 7 mordeythan w. 5 combi flamers, 2 meltas in a rhino with combi melta

- Maun, with camo

- libby's with telepathy

- 10 vet's with melta bombs (cheapest 10 MBs available)

- 5 man legion recon squads with MBs (cheapest way to get 5 MBs)

- praevian with castellax

- nothing else really is that compettive in my eyes... sure you can do crazy things with destroyers or infiltrating las cannons... but I think the units above are the best...

 

Deepstrike:

- fire raptors with upgrades

- seakers with combi plas

- termis with comis and axes in storm eagle with las and melta

- 5 ish dark furies with a chaplain with a void shield and camo

- 10 dark furies with talons

- contemptor is anvilis drop pod

- melta gun assault squads in legion drop pods

- Xerxes lightning strike fighter

- there are other fringe options like units in Maun's pod or deepstriking termi, or hit and run assault marines with MBs, but that's the list I use. 

 

As for integrating assault marines/jump infantry/dark furies into a a decapitating strike list:

- Assault marines. You don't. But maybe in an Angel's wrath list.

- Jump infantry... well you have the destriyers but as cool as they are, I'm alwyas had a tough time springing for the packs... I just find the rhinos more reliable and LOS blockign, which is huge for them. This leaves you with command squads, which can be ran with a Praetor to some success, if you are using them to clean up damaged units later in the game. So think drop pods, fliers and reserve control units. 

- Dark furies - They work well with the maun bubble. I drop them behind terrain and attach maun to them to give them the camo +1. Then unleash them.

 

- Also pods for your tacs aren't necesarily the obvious choice. 5 dark fury can hide behind a rhino, but not a drop pod. Something to think about. Plus you need something to start on the table, so as not to be tabled while waiting for your reserves. 

 

- As for foot sloggers vs transports? I almost always rhino units with ob sec. It's a movable ob sec transport for 35 pts in a game of expensive troops units. The usues of movable LOS blocking terrain is enormous. Check out my blog for tactics on rhinos... That said, tac in a pod has it's place and uses, I just prefer pods on different units. Plus nothing sucks more than scattering a pod off an objective and it sits 4"s away...

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can't get camo on a unit with jump pack, also obsec doesn't exist in age of Darkness (book 5) unless you're playing against 40k, in which case only implacable advance has it (you need a detachment that has it as a rule and the aos foc doesn't). As for what should infiltrate vs deepstrike it really depends on what list you want; if you don't do pods then rhinos are best so infiltrating. If you want a drop list then you want units in pods that matter; seekers can be fun but are a massive point sink, contemptor pods are always good, 10 man tacs to enable good things dropping turn one, mor deythan in mauns pod. Never deepstrike flyers as they come in as skimmers, don't take an anvilus for contemptor as it wastes their grav and their pods are better.

[SkimaskMohawk]

*double post*

Edited September 25, 2015 by SkimaskMohawk

[GreyCrow]

In a list with Maun, why wouldn't you Infiltrate the Mor Deythans with Maun over putting them in Pods ?

 

They're pretty awesome for Alpha Striking when you've got the first turn, and clearing room for the rest of your units to drop in...

[defl0]

@skimaskmohawk - No you can't get camo on a jump pack squad but that's not what I mean. Maun deploys on the board with the camo upgrade. Dark fury squad comes down near him with no scatter. He joins the squad to give them camo bonus fo rthe next shooting phase. Then leaves the squad the next turn when they go off to kick ass and take names. I do it all the the time. Works like a charm. 

 

As for fliers coming in as skimmers, not necessarily a bad tactical choice. It depends on risk. Often I have 300+ points inside my flier plus the cost of the flier. Going into skimmer mode gives the squad inside a fighting chance if it get's blown up. Plus, I think you have to declare if it's in skimmer mode or flier mode, I'm pretty sure it's a choice. (I have to re check the rule though). 

 

Agreed. Typo on the contemptor. Take their drop pod. 

 

As for ob sec, yeah, 5th book changes transports a lot, that said, rhinos are much better denial units than pods. 

 

@Grey Crow - I would normally infiltrate Mor Deythan. although I put Maun in other squads, not mor deythan. I pointed it out only because decapitating strike doesn;t give Mor deythan the option of pods, but with Maun's pod you could deepstrike them. So if you are going ALL pods, it's an interesting option to know. 

[coloroutofspace]

What about Tac or Heavy support squads? I'd imagine infiltrating Volkite Calivers or Culvarins is the way to go, but what about other loadouts, like flamers or heavy flamers in a pod? Perhaps even a few meltaguns? I imagine these guys could do well in an infiltrating Rhino, but a pod seems to be a better option... Also, I'm toying with the idea of a Dread with a Flamestorm cannon and a Chainfist - not that it's better than a Contemptor, but because you can get one for cheap on ebay and just give it a new paintjob.

[defl0]

I like support squads in pods. Personally I like meltas, as I would go mor deythan with flamers and seekers with plasma. But it always depends on points. Remember you don't have to get out of the pod when you deepstrike!

 

As for rhinos, I tend to keep them for units with scout and infiltrate. 24" push back usually mean two rounds to really get in maximizing range for the whole squad with specialweapons.

 

For heavy support, I'm more of a tank hunter guy. RG can get up and close so infantry clearing can be done with special weapons or dark fury squads or pie plates or extra close, etc.

 

The power of infiltrate and decapitating strike is get to place the unit after deployment so you can maybe get side armor and and no cover save. Plus you have a damn good chance if going first if you take maun.

 

Infantry clearing weapons in hvy squads don't really get much synergy pick up IMO.

[GreyCrow]

Very good points defl0 !

 

I have two topics I'd love to get your insight on

 

1) Recon Squads. They're talked about in the Raven Guard fluff section and look like mini Mor Deythans. Any use for them ? I feel that they might be an annoying hidden gem to them...

 

2) Has anyone made a force with no Pods (no decapitating strike), with a high content of Bikes/Jetbikes/Terminators/Assault Marines (mainly to get the second half of the Legiones rule ?).

I feel that Outrider squads with TLPG as well as maximum amount of CC weapons could be a very nice support due to Furious Charge. The army would kind of lose the flavour of Infiltrating, but at least it would have the Jump and assault part right !

Edited September 25, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Slips]

Mor Deythan are better than Recon squads in every respect since base, they cost the same and only loose out on Outflank & Acute Senses. Recon Squads are cheaper in the long run but when you compare damage potential, Mor Deythan trump them every time.

 

However, they could be cool to use to Accurately outflank a Storm Eagle with or as a 5 Man Squad in Carapace Armor with a Nuncio-Vox to act as another Deepstrike / Artillery Spotter bubble.

 

But with Maun around, you dont really need them.

 

 

+++

 

Theres really nothing but points limit thats stopping you from taking Bikes/Jetbikes/Jump/Terminators in a Decapitation Strike list.

 

 

Edit: If you have a Ton Of Land Raiders and want to perform some Lulz, Remember that Armored Spearhead is a thing and you could essentially have an Army of Infiltrating Land Raiders.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Slipstreams

[GreyCrow]

Mor Deythan get more expensive than the Recon Squads for sure, due to having to take weapons. On top of that, they're more expensive points for points at 10 strong (225 for the Mor Deythan without any gear, 200 for 10 for the Recon). Granted, the Mor Deythan have stealth base.

 

So, Mor Deythan are a more elite version of the Recon Squad, with better Alpha Strike capabilities. The idea with Recon Squads was that they can be a couple of inches more forward due to Scout compared to regular Tactical Squads. Of course they comparatively lose value compared to other Legions, due to other Legions not having Infiltrate :p

[Slips]

If they could be made Compulsory Troops under the RoW then I think that'd help them because, as is, no rite, generic or otherwise, makes use of them vs Assault Marines being pretty decent options for Angels Wrath (20 Man Squad with Hit & Run?), Breachers under Stone Gauntlet (Hard to beat T5 Marines with a 5++ and most likely FNP) and Tacs because they're Tacs.

 

Even Tac Vets, imo, are a better investment than Recons due to having Fleet & Infiltrate and being able to tack on either Tank Hunters, Furious Charge (they technically get ALL the legion rules with this :P) or Sniper (Coupled with Decap's PE(IC), they stand to deal some nasty damage).

 

Hopefully Book 6's rumoured Rites of War (generic and legion) do something to alleviate the problem Recons and a few other units have.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@slips since Mor Deythan have infiltrate they get outflank :P

 

@grey grow take the Furious charge units in an angels wrath, there's nothing really other than the easier first turn and preferred enemy IC that you get out of it and without precision strike you kind of lose out on PE. The thing to keep in mind is how versatile RG are as almost any list you make will get some bonuses (other than battle tank spam).

 

Recon Marines kinda of get out shone in every way in a RG though; every marine can outflank already due to infiltrate, so having a squad of guys with CC off the flank is already cheaper, you already have infiltrate so there's absolutely no reason to drop to scout armour, and if you wanted sniper rifles you can get a squad of mor deythan for the same cost (5 man) who just out perform them comprehensively. Shame as I love my scouts in 40k and have 15 I'd love to use

 

@defl0 I was thinking of the dreadclaw where it tells you how it works, normal hover mode stuff gets a choice. Storm eagle with axe terminators is still really weird though, just take a caestus and give them fists and they'll be infinitely more scary

[Slips]

Yeah I keep forgetting but then immediately remembering that Infiltrate = Outflank before/after posting :x

 

Oh, and general thoughts on the Darkwing? Been a while since its been mentioned and I'd like to see if theres been a shift in its perception. A Storm Eagle with a 3+ Jink is pretty dang good but reduced capacity and fixed weapons make it seem a bit wonky.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Darkwing has some pretty cool disruption potential, would be better if concussive kicked in before blind (iirc the rockets have both) which would make the utility really high. As it is, i'd say only a larger 3kish+ game where you can take them as dedicateds to mor deythan and not have them take up slots or fight for points for more important things

[GreyCrow]

The problem I have with Darkwings is that once you jink, you don't get the benefit of the Blind missiles :/

 

It's a bit of an unwieldy bird to fly to be honest, because on the turn it arrives, its debuff won't benefit the unit that it is transporting (and you really want to it to transport slow moving units like Terminators), because it won't be able to assault from Reserves. So, either you're using it to buff another unit, either you pace yourself and wait a turn.

 

The saving grace is that it's got awesome deployment options, where you could choose the best insertion route to benefit from Stealth without having to Jink while getting close to your preferred target. And now you've got a pretty decent ship, but still a Turn 3 charge at the earliest.

 

So, I guess its best use is for a precision strike rather than just delivering a nasty beatstick...