[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well those lists vary completely so it's hard to give an even analysis. On the whole though, thudd guns are the most take all comers and Mor deythan are always useful too. Plasma blaster dread in kharybdis is mega bad, dual grav in a normal pod is way better and doesn't cost all the points. Blobs of tacticals are hit or miss as objectives are what wins games and two 10 man squads can't be focused down as easily and aren't template bait

[defl0]

@stang - Thanks for the compliment. I need to get back to writing some tactics articles. Especially now that the AOD rules have been updated and we are not playing 7th ed rules :)

 

So for white scars vs RG... RG are more alpha strike and recon based. White scars are more of a Sun Tzu water army, which is focused on hit and run and tactical adjustments during the game to swwop in and win at the end. Both are great because they are a "thinking an's army". 

 

I like RG in HH because the list building is interesting and you can win in the deployment phase. I tend to play high risk / high reward builds, and victory often comes down to how the first turn unfolds. That isn't necessarily attractive to everyone, and you don't have to build a RG force that way, but that's why I really like it. Winning due to superior deployment and point efficiency due to weapon range just feels very Raven Guard to me, and I think that is lost in the 40k version of the rules. 

 

I also play a bit of White scars on the 40k side, and I have to admit that hit and run is by far the most fun and often powerful rule in the game. Plus bikes tend to be a fairly powerful platform. That said, there is considerably less room on HH boards. Also, hit and run is not something readily available beyond the angel's wrath ROW... Plus the "non supported" legion rules of stubborn and furious charge are obviously slanted towards blood angels and dark angels. So to build something that feels convincingly white scar is currently trricky to pull off.

 

On the flip side, you will get the excitement of NEW rules and playing your army two very different ways (pre/post rules). So that's fun. 

 

The biggest difference (hypothetically speaking) is that White scar armies tend to be more fluid and reactive. RG tends to start at a position of superiority ans slowly loses that as the game goes on. Even if you play reserve based armies with RG you are usually looking to pull off a BIG turn or a couple small decisive engagements to win the overall battle. White scars tend to harass and tie up points and movement throughout the game and win via mobility at the end. 

 

Beyond game play, they both have interesting primarchs and story lines. Both are easy to paint poorly and hard to paint well. I actually like the asthetics of White Sars better, but I did RG because I wanted to learn how to pain lighting effects so I'm doing a night time based army scheme. 

 

As to stuff you are like, all those options sound great. haven't tried the dread concept yet, but definitely sounds fun to use and paint. 

[stang]

Hey thanks for the responses guys

 

 thudd guns are the most take all comers and Mor deythan are always useful too. Plasma blaster dread in kharybdis is mega bad, dual grav in a normal pod is way better and doesn't cost all the points. Blobs of tacticals are hit or miss as objectives are what wins games and two 10 man squads can't be focused down as easily and aren't template bait

 Hear you on the thud guns and Mor Deythan.
As for the dred and tacticals -

• I like the idea of a dred in my list. However, I was worried it wouldn't "make ends meet". Do RG dreds work? or are we best focused on more Infiltrating Mor Deythans and Rapiers.
• The chaplain + 20 CC tacts were shamelessly taken from Pete's blog. His reasoning of capitalising on an already "sunken" cost in troops (plus making use of their innate infiltrating and fleet) makes solid sense. The other troop choice will be a regular 10 man with AA.

Was I heading in the wrong direction? The basic 2x10 man Rhino Tacts instead?

 

@stang - Thanks for the compliment. I need to get back to writing some tactics articles. Especially now that the AOD rules have been updated and we are not playing 7th ed rules

 

So for white scars vs RG... RG are more alpha strike and recon based. White scars are more of a Sun Tzu water army, which is focused on hit and run and tactical adjustments during the game to swwop in and win at the end. Both are great because they are a "thinking an's army". 

 

I like RG in HH because the list building is interesting and you can win in the deployment phase. I tend to play high risk / high reward builds, and victory often comes down to how the first turn unfolds. That isn't necessarily attractive to everyone, and you don't have to build a RG force that way, but that's why I really like it. Winning due to superior deployment and point efficiency due to weapon range just feels very Raven Guard to me, and I think that is lost in the 40k version of the rules. 

 

I also play a bit of White scars on the 40k side, and I have to admit that hit and run is by far the most fun and often powerful rule in the game. Plus bikes tend to be a fairly powerful platform. That said, there is considerably less room on HH boards. Also, hit and run is not something readily available beyond the angel's wrath ROW... Plus the "non supported" legion rules of stubborn and furious charge are obviously slanted towards blood angels and dark angels. So to build something that feels convincingly white scar is currently trricky to pull off.

 

On the flip side, you will get the excitement of NEW rules and playing your army two very different ways (pre/post rules). So that's fun. 

 

The biggest difference (hypothetically speaking) is that White scar armies tend to be more fluid and reactive. RG tends to start at a position of superiority ans slowly loses that as the game goes on. Even if you play reserve based armies with RG you are usually looking to pull off a BIG turn or a couple small decisive engagements to win the overall battle. White scars tend to harass and tie up points and movement throughout the game and win via mobility at the end. 

 

Beyond game play, they both have interesting primarchs and story lines. Both are easy to paint poorly and hard to paint well. I actually like the asthetics of White Sars better, but I did RG because I wanted to learn how to pain lighting effects so I'm doing a night time based army scheme. 

 

As to stuff you are like, all those options sound great. haven't tried the dread concept yet, but definitely sounds fun to use and paint. 

 

Yes, you should write more! They were really very helpful in my search. Particularly with the bat reps and post game comments. 
It's great that you have experience in both armies. I'm actually really torn between the 2 as they are both under-represented and appeal to my play-style.

As to your reasons - 
I'm not particularly attracted to list building. I like to get something down once and good, and then really focus on the modelling aspect. I'm constantly frustrated with pouring in so much effort into miniatures only to have them invalidated later (40k). New units get released - sure, but some thoughtful planning in units help. Thats why I'm here now.

 

Raven Guard seem to be infantry heavy? That is the impression I am getting. 
I like the ability to re-roll (Hi Maun, Mor Deythans) as well as glass cannon units that go in and get the job done (Rending flamer templates, Infiltrating Rapiers). This is the sneaky pew-pew-waywatcher in me.

But is this enough? Perhaps I'm just wary as most lists I'm seeing come with heavy hitter tanks (Typhon etc) or monster units. I also like speed and outflanking (hence WS but thats another topic).

 

How is everyone fairing these days?

[defl0]

On your tac squad question,both small squads and big squads work, but things are a little different with the new AoD rules.

 

2 missions are straight up kill points, so are anti msu. This is especially tough on drop pod lists.

 

The rest are basically objective missions. But now dedicated transports don't score.

 

Only shatter strike rewards non scoring units...

 

So what makes RG strong is that we can take scoring units that actually do stuff :)

 

Mor Deythan are even more valuable now.

 

And the big troop unit is solid at holding an objective or more importantly taking one in hth.

 

So I do think 10 man tac squads are viable but I like them better in reserve. Think flying transports ;)

 

I'm also digging lists big on fearless vets with melta bombs.

[stang]

And the big troop unit is solid at holding an objective or more importantly taking one in hth.

 

So I do think 10 man tac squads are viable but I like them better in reserve. Think flying transports

 

I'm also digging lists big on fearless vets with melta bombs.

Ok. So for our troop selections, and assuming I'm starting with 1500 (but taking this to a higher points level later), would you guys say -

1. Troops - 20 tacts with CCW and 10 regular tacts.
2. Elites - 2 x 5 man Mor Deythan combi-flamers.
3. Elites - As many infiltrating thudd gun rapiers.
4. Chaplain.

Of course, I'll eventually post an army list but would like input on basic "building blocks" (specifically troops).

 

defl0 - Do the vets provide something in an RG list that others don't elsewhere?

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Chaplain = 85pts

 

20 Tac, BP+CCW = 250pts

10 Tac, Bolters = 150pts

 

Mor Deythan, Combi Flamers = 160pts

Mor Deythan, Combi Flamers = 160pts

3 Quad Mortar Rapiers = 180pts

3 Quad Mortar Rapiers = 180pts

 

This comes to 1165pts. Leaves points for 3 Rhinos (105), and 230pts remaining; Dreadnought, Chainfist, 2 Graviton Guns, Dreadclaw Drop Pod is 230pts exactly or a Deredeo, Autocannons, Aiolos, and artificer on the BP+CCW Sergeant. 

[Terminus]

30K lists at these point levels make me sad. :(

[stang]

Chaplain = 85pts

 

20 Tac, BP+CCW = 250pts

10 Tac, Bolters = 150pts

 

Mor Deythan, Combi Flamers = 160pts

Mor Deythan, Combi Flamers = 160pts

3 Quad Mortar Rapiers = 180pts

3 Quad Mortar Rapiers = 180pts

 

This comes to 1165pts. Leaves points for 3 Rhinos (105), and 230pts remaining; Dreadnought, Chainfist, 2 Graviton Guns, Dreadclaw Drop Pod is 230pts exactly or a Deredeo, Autocannons, Aiolos, and artificer on the BP+CCW Sergeant. 

 

How about -

1. I cut down on the 3 Quad Rapiers and have a 3rd Mor Deythan squad.
2. Grab the Dreadnought and,
3. Use the remaining points for a Power axe on one tact sergeant and AA on the other, as well as gear for the chaplain.

30K lists at these point levels make me sad.

I got to start somewhere sir.

[Terminus]

 

30K lists at these point levels make me sad.

I got to start somewhere sir.

I was talking about the fact that for apparently quite a few gaming groups, these are the standard game sizes.

[defl0]

Yeah. AOD rules are kinda set up for bigger games. At 1500 I like doing zone mortalis.

 

That said you probably don't need the grav cannons at 1500. Spartans and the like are less viable. Melta goes a long way at 1500.

 

Inest the points in mordeythan. Maybe add some melta to make the squads dual purpose because the number of deployments go down at 1500.

 

As for vets, they are usually a list in themselves. I rarely add them as an add on.

 

What makes them good in RG is the free infiltrate. Let's you keep them cheap. I like them with fearless and melta bombs.

[Hesh Kadesh]

No-one is mentioning Graviton Cannons here? Only mention of Grav is on a Podded Dreadnought incase anyone brings something like a Special Weapon Squad to sit inside a Land Raider Achilles, which can be pretty hard to shift in a meta where metla is pretty much 50/50. 

 

As for why Achilles? It has a Sunder Shell Quad Gun capable of taking out a Pod or Assault Claw, and up to 3 Multimeltas to prang the walker inside. The Flamer Squad makes them score, and gives a decent anti infantry counter. I also feel that people are missing out at low level on the beauty that is 10 Man Furious Charge Power Axe or Sword Assault Squads. 280pts for 10 Hammer of Wraths, 10 WS4 S6 AP2 attacks, and 21 WS4 S5 AP- attacks, with a 12" Move, 2d6 assault. 

 

Keep some intervening terrain, and you're golden.

 

Alternatively, try Medusa with infiltrating nuncios to get Line of Sight. A Siege Breaker for Phosphex can be pretty awesome. 3+ with a reroll to wound, super accurate (BS4, direct fire, crawling fire allowing a further 2" move of the template, dangerous terrain). When speaking with FW, the Medusa Phosphex is Barrage as well, or should be. 

[stang]

Awesome feedback guys.
 

Inest the points in mordeythan. Maybe add some melta to make the squads dual purpose because the number of deployments go down at 1500.

As for vets, they are usually a list in themselves. I rarely add them as an add on.

What makes them good in RG is the free infiltrate. Let's you keep them cheap. I like them with fearless and melta bombs.

Got it.
As for the Mor Deythans, Wouldn't another unit have a greater impact (x3 fatal strike flamer) than 2 squads with additional meltas? 

Also defl0 - just curious, have you posted more bat reps elsewhere?
 

 

As for why Achilles? It has a Sunder Shell Quad Gun capable of taking out a Pod or Assault Claw, and up to 3 Multimeltas to prang the walker inside. The Flamer Squad makes them score, and gives a decent anti infantry counter. I also feel that people are missing out at low level on the beauty that is 10 Man Furious Charge Power Axe or Sword Assault Squads. 280pts for 10 Hammer of Wraths, 10 WS4 S6 AP2 attacks, and 21 WS4 S5 AP- attacks, with a 12" Move, 2d6 assault. 

 

Keep some intervening terrain, and you're golden.

 

Alternatively, try Medusa with infiltrating nuncios to get Line of Sight. A Siege Breaker for Phosphex can be pretty awesome. 3+ with a reroll to wound, super accurate (BS4, direct fire, crawling fire allowing a further 2" move of the template, dangerous terrain). When speaking with FW, the Medusa Phosphex is Barrage as well, or should be. 

 

Instead on going wild with options, I originally thought it best to augment staple troops (CCWs and Chaplains) and go with what works (Mor Deythans, Rapiers).

 

20 CCW tacts and a Chaplain to take objectives. 10 basic tacts to hold objectives. Infiltrate to get there. 

Am I on the right track? 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Hard to say. Legion gameplay sucks at that level, and is easily broken by someone cheesing a particular unit in. A Pair of Achilles or even Alpha's is brutal.

[Terminus]

On the subject of Mor Deythan, why give them all combi-flamers? Why not spend a few extra points and take advantage to upgrade one in three for a full-fledged flamer? Or maybe even the missile launcher? If the opponent is clustered enough for a template, a blast marker that you can put pretty much wherever you want (TL BS5) should tag 2-3 dudes. Six Mor Deythan with 4 combi-flamers and 2 suspended missile launchers is 203 points. It gives them something to do while there is nothing to splooge on.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Missile launchers are bad unless you have a lot. They don't go through 2+ armour and can't one shot vehicles anymore, but they're still usually 15+ per. The only time is take them is in a unit of iron havocs as they get so much value. The reason why combi flamers are more attractive than regular ones are that they're one use like the ability; no in would be taking flamers on them otherwise, so why just have a flamer instead of a plasma gun?

[Terminus]

Missile launchers are bad unless you have a lot. They don't go through 2+ armour and can't one shot vehicles anymore, but they're still usually 15+ per. The only time is take them is in a unit of iron havocs as they get so much value. The reason why combi flamers are more attractive than regular ones are that they're one use like the ability; no in would be taking flamers on them otherwise, so why just have a flamer instead of a plasma gun?

Fair enough, although a pair of missiles from each squad doesn't seem like a terrible investment. People do it with Destroyers all the time, although granted they have rad missiles too. I don't really understand the benefit of the flamer being one use. After the one-time ability is used up, a flamer is still far more useful than a regular bolter.

[SkimaskMohawk]

A flamer is more useful at close range, while a Bolter is more useful if they're more than 8" away. In a game where moral matters, being able to ping a few guys off at 24" and then have then run off the objective is super useful. As for destoyers, they only get rad missiles

[Caillum]

As Skimask said, Destroyers ONLY have Rad missiles, and they are an exception to the norm. They're also very expensive; almost prohibitively so. Missile launchers on Mor Deythan aren't a terrible investment, they're just not brilliant.

 

Mor Deythan are an Alpha Strike unit. Combine their 1-shot combi-flamers with their Fatal Strike and you can NOPE a unit. After that, if they survive, they want to move onto an objective (as they have Implacable Advance) and take pot-shots with the bolter component of the combi-flamer - this is better than a standard flamer.

 

Also, I've seen people take combi-plasma and plasma guns before, but I feel like this is a waste of Fatal Strike.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'd be more inclined for missiles on a sniper version of them. The range largely matches and it helps them deal with the targets you take sniper mor deythan for, castellax 

[defl0]

@stang. Sorry just actually pulled some battle retorts off the site because they were old. I'm try to get some new ones up. I'm experimenting with flierz recently. So stay tuned.

 

As for Mor Deythan:

 

-missile launchers. What makes mor deythan special snow flakes is the rending. Missile launchers don't really add to that efficiently. You are better off with vets or grabbing destroyers with rad for that tactic.

 

- meltas add cost to the squad bit they can be very useful at times. I like combi flamers with 2 full on meltas in a rhino with a combo melta. This does two things. One it obviously adds flexibility to the squad. But it also let's you split fire the 3 meltas. If you get lucky with the combI you can shoot the guys inside or try to pop a second vehicle. I've popped Teo rhinos and flamed the pinned squad the next turn a couple times.

 

-3 comhi flamer squads. Yeah

I mean this is where I usually end up. That said you get some savings with one 10 man squad, but it's totally over kill for most situations.

 

The real issue though is tank hunting. I never have issue clearing infantry in 30k... Popping next vehicles at low point cost games can definately be challenging. Especially in anything with ceremite.

[stang]

@stang. Sorry just actually pulled some battle retorts off the site because they were old. I'm try to get some new ones up. I'm experimenting with flierz recently. So stay tuned.

 

As for Mor Deythan:

 

-missile launchers. What makes mor deythan special snow flakes is the rending. Missile launchers don't really add to that efficiently. You are better off with vets or grabbing destroyers with rad for that tactic.

 

- meltas add cost to the squad bit they can be very useful at times. I like combi flamers with 2 full on meltas in a rhino with a combo melta. This does two things. One it obviously adds flexibility to the squad. But it also let's you split fire the 3 meltas. If you get lucky with the combI you can shoot the guys inside or try to pop a second vehicle. I've popped Teo rhinos and flamed the pinned squad the next turn a couple times.

 

-3 comhi flamer squads. Yeah

I mean this is where I usually end up. That said you get some savings with one 10 man squad, but it's totally over kill for most situations.

 

The real issue though is tank hunting. I never have issue clearing infantry in 30k... Popping next vehicles at low point cost games can definately be challenging. Especially in anything with ceremite.

 

Awesome. So far what I've gathered from you guys is - 

• 3 x 5 Mor Deythan combi flamers - Unit Deletion. 
• 1x 2-3 Rapiers - Anti-tank.

Big thanks to everyone for narrowing that down.  

However, what should I run with for the basic troops and HQ?  

• Standard 2x10 tacts? (CCW? or not even worth it...)
• Chaplain?

Defl0 - Have you been running the Lightning Primaris?

[defl0]

Sounds good. The next thing you need to decide on is transports. They offer mobility but more importantly they all have unique timing options.

 

Infiltration is cheapest. Drop pods get you there fastest. Rhinos can be fast or very slow depending on if you out flank them, deploy them or infiltrate them. Fliers depend on reserves manipulation.

 

Not deythan are great first turn alpha strike, but they work very well coming in delayed as well.

 

For example, if you run into a list with a couple land raiders. You might need a couple turns to crank the transports before hiring with your flamers. So putting them in Storm eagles is a solid choice in certain lists.

 

As for hq.I really like maun with decapitating strike. But it depends on what sort of List you are building.

 

A chaplain is a cheap alternative or addition if you go with the 20 man squad.

 

At 1500 points you will find you are tight on points. So it's often hard to find the extra points for things like ccws.

 

I would suggest trying 2 x 10 first. Get painted models on the table. Then try the 20 man squad. They are both viable and have a lot of tactical options.

[stang]

Great. Yes, thats what I'm aiming for as well - 1500 and painted. 

 

I'm also probably going to go for Infiltration as I'll need all the points I can get at that level.

 

For that range,  is Maun good for an HQ? or should I be looking for cheaper alternatives?

[defl0]

Chaplain = 85pts

 

20 Tac, BP+CCW = 250pts

10 Tac, Bolters = 150pts

 

Mor Deythan, Combi Flamers = 160pts

Mor Deythan, Combi Flamers = 160pts

3 Quad Mortar Rapiers = 180pts

3 Quad Mortar Rapiers = 180pts

 

This comes to 1165pts. Leaves points for 3 Rhinos (105), and 230pts remaining; Dreadnought, Chainfist, 2 Graviton Guns, Dreadclaw Drop Pod is 230pts exactly or a Deredeo, Autocannons, Aiolos, and artificer on the BP+CCW Sergeant. 

 

 

totally solid start. Couple small pieces i would add. 

 

Cameleoline on the chaplain is a must, and I usually take a melta bomb. for power weapon, I go power axe. Also if you end up taking grav cannons or grav on the dread, take the shield on the chap. Blind and I1 is brutal :p I also like a melta bomb on the sgt in the 20 man squad. Depending on points he might get an axe as well. 

[defl0]

Maun good for an HQ? or should I be looking for cheaper alternatives?

 

Maun is a force multipier. So more force, more multiple :p

 

But yeah he is good if you are going alpha strike or deepstrike or reserve heavy. 

 

 

I use him at 2k. 1500 pts is tough for hh because it's not enough to round out your list. So it can be pretty rock, paper scissors from a match up perspective. 

 

Plus that's a lot of points in HQ to take both... I would probably pick a single HQ and build my list around him at 1500 pts. 

 

Maun vs. praevin vs. chaplian vs. libby vs. preator builds look very different from one another.