[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[SkimaskMohawk]

Maun can take other ICs in his pod, but not other units

[GreyCrow]

Would using the bleeding edge to bring a Darkwing with melee Cataphractii be an interesting option for a precision strike ? Getting a no scatter, 3+ Jink flier somewhere unexpected and slightly away from Interceptor firepower sounds like a cool prospect.

 

EDIT : Going full infantry on Raven Guard does seem to be an interesting prospect too. What good anti-tank unit would you use ? I was thinking about a 10 men Lascannon team with a Siegebreaker. It's a bit expensive and might be overkill against Rhinos so some alternative anti-tank might be good, but mathhammer dictates that with Infiltrating you can get side shots on a Spartan Tank and with Tank Hunters will deal 5 hull points precisely. The build goes at 535 points with a Camo Cloak Siege Breaker and it doesn't seem too bad when you are full infantry.

 

Plus, the picture of a Sniper Team with Lascannons infiltrating just sounds glorious.

Edited December 6, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Hesh Kadesh]

You can't have Maun join a unit and come in turn 1

 

He joins a unit, the unit is no longer eligible to go on his dedicated transport.

 

For the no scatter etc, eh. It is bringing on a melee tooled unit costing 745pts without the ability to charge until turn 3

[Nusquam]

That rule is s very clear RAW vs RAI situation. Theres no way they intended him to go alone or with smothering IC.

 

Most units don't charge until turn 3 anyway. I've been playing around with a similar idea. 5 termi with combi plas in a darkwing worth forgelord, rad, and nanyte to finish off things I've shot or go troop hunting. I need more variation in my lists ha. Figured they could work well in strike missions or city fight

[Hesh Kadesh]

With all respect, i'd love to be able ti have your ability to read RAI from the same text as I am.

 

Even RACSD doesn't mean anything in this instance as it is simple to me how IC works. You count as a part of that unit for all respects.

 

It is also notable that no FAQ has been produced to address that point, which is more indicative IMHO of intent.

[Nusquam]

You should know better than to assume every single rule as written works perfectly in every circumstance. There's even a rule in the BRB that warns us us of that.

 

I do not for one second believe the writers of Maun, a Raven guard captain, intended him to be alone inside a transport like a drop and come down all by himself shoot something with his bolt pistol and give your opponent first blood and slay the warlord. Not even world eaters are that fool hardy.

[Hesh Kadesh]

The one where if there's a conflict in rules, you roll off. Are you willing to rely on a 4+ to decide the fate of an entire unit?

 

I can see how a lone RG captain would be dropped into play, hide behind terrain like a good RG, and then use his Vox to bring in allies. The fact he only has a BP encourages him not to be near enough to shoot. 

 

We can argue one way or another, claim RAI, RACSD, but unequivocally, in this instance the RAW is actually unquestionable. It's not the unit which didn't buy the dedicated transport. Ergo, unit cannot deploy in it. As queries go for forgeworld, it's really cut and dry for a dry for a change. That the rule doesn't do what people thinks it does (i.e, Blind effect from throwing Defensive Grenades on a Boarding Shield actually applying; although that is rather a case of "it shouldn't do) is beside the point.

[Nusquam]

 

I can see how a lone RG captain would be dropped into play, hide behind terrain like a good RG, and then use his Vox to bring in allies. The fact he only has a BP encourages him not to be near enough to shoot. 

We both know what you're actually trying to do here. So I'll leave it up to forgeworld themselves.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Again, with you knowing other peoples intentions. Must be some kind of super saiyan or something.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Raw it's super clear, how people decide to house rule it is another story

 

On another note I realized something pretty interesting yesterday. I was getting sour looking at Corax's WS 7 compared to the other frontline primarchs, especially since in his (albeit poorly written) fluff he considers Curze trash and has beaten Horus in sparring. I was desperately confused why Perty had ws8 and corax 7. Then I looked at his Shadow Walk fighting style and saw that it lasts until Corax's controlling player's turn but you choose fighting styles every player assault phase, meaning you can stack the debuff twice. Making other primarchs with equal skill hit on 6s is pretttttty good so I can forgive his ws 7 just like his 5+ invul. Not sure if it's been discussed, but again, I found it interesting 

Edited December 7, 2015 by SkimaskMohawk

[GreyCrow]

@Skimask : Wow, there's some nasty potential for abuse here !

 

They can indeed apparently stack, and also, aside from Shadow walk, they seem to stay for the whole game. I mean, you could go for Scourge 2 turns in a row and get 10 attacks for Corax that last the whole game, because it just says that it applies to his attacks, not to his attacks this turn. By Turn 3, you can actually have 10 S9 Attacks by going Scourge, Scourge, Death Strike.

I feel RAI it was meant for just the current turn, but well, RAW... :P

[xera32]

You can't benefit from the same special rule multiple times.

 

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."

 

If it doesn't specifically state they stack, you cannot gain the benefit twice.

[Nova_chron]

So then scourge shadow death strike shadow shadow.....then execute troll face?? Edited December 7, 2015 by Nova_chron

[SkimaskMohawk]

Good thing shadow stalk doesn't give bonuses to a model

[Hesh Kadesh]

Cute little observation regarding "cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once".

 

Does this mean that you only get 1 furious charge per battle? 

 

Well done GW. Wow. It's a good job we know how to play your game without you. 

 

That said, Shadowstalk wouldn't stack, because despite it being a negative, it's still a "benefit" of the rule. Doesn't matter that it doesn't help the model, in the same way that a subtraction is actually an addition of a negative number.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Then why even include benefit. If we're going to be that pedantic let's go all the way to.your original conclusion, that you only get the benefit once per game. If you're going to start modifying it then maybe making it work throughout the game and reserving it to benefits. Otherwise any unit that is snapshot at would only be shot at full BS every subsequent time

[1ncarnadine]

lol the rulebook actually does state that... p.156 "Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once." I don't think the meaning is that unclear though unless you're a silly person? Otherwise certain rules become... well.... "And They Shall Know No Fear. The One Time. But Afterwards They Know Fear, Which Is Unfortunate For Them." Yeah, it's not worth over-thinking.

 

Then why even include benefit. If we're going to be that pedantic let's go all the way to.your original conclusion, that you only get the benefit once per game. If you're going to start modifying it then maybe making it work throughout the game and reserving it to benefits. Otherwise any unit that is snapshot at would only be shot at full BS every subsequent time

 

But you do benefit from (or could we just say gain?) the Shadow-walk rule, which imposes a modifier to enemy units in assault that phase, the -1 to-hit penalty of which lasts until your next assault phase regardless of whether you switch the rule out or not. Doesn't seem too hard to interpret? It does mean that there's less reason to use Shadow-walk two turns straight; you'll probably want to switch it out on your opponent's phase. But you still might want to activate it twice if you didn't use it on your own turn and wanted the -1 for the next three assault phases.

[Terminus]

Same effect not stacking is pretty much universal to wargames, so accusations of pedantry are just sour grapes.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Talon of horus. A debuff you stack but can't gain the benefit of more than once.

[Nusquam]

Has it come to this? Have we exhausted all tactical discussion?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well to be fair this train of conversation was a result of potential tactics with corax

[1ncarnadine]

Talon of horus. A debuff you stack but can't gain the benefit of more than once.

 

The Talon of Horus specifically calls out its debuff stacking effect, though. "This damage is cumulative over multiple assault phases." It's not an exception and is still in line with that sentence from the rulebook. "Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once." 

 

If Shadow-walk said something like "this To-Hit modifier is cumulative over multiple phases" you'd be golden here, but that's not the case and it can be safely assumed to not stack. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Has it come to this? Have we exhausted all tactical discussion?

Dunno, what's our intention here, cap'n? 

[Nova_chron]

Well one thing that's interesting is it lasts two assault phases with the wording so shadow then scourge or killing strike alternate to always have the debuff on your opponent and every other you buff yourself... AFB right this moment so correct me if I am wrong

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Talon of horus. A debuff you stack but can't gain the benefit of more than once.

 

The Talon of Horus specifically calls out its debuff stacking effect, though. "This damage is cumulative over multiple assault phases." It's not an exception and is still in line with that sentence from the rulebook. "Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once." 

 

If Shadow-walk said something like "this To-Hit modifier is cumulative over multiple phases" you'd be golden here, but that's not the case and it can be safely assumed to not stack. 

 

 

You're totally able to stack the WS and S debuff, you could actually kill someone by taking away all their strength if they had more wounds than strength (iirc)

 

However, there's nothing that says Horus is specifically allowed to benefit from the reduced WS/S more than once. That means that once they strike Horus once with the debuff on them he would have benefited from the rule, making any further strike against him ineligible,  though that accumulated debuff would work against any other enemy that hadn't benefited from the result of Disabling Strike.

 

This is a very pedantic argument, but I'm trying to highlight just how the rule works mechanically when taken from a RAW standpoint.