[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[SkimaskMohawk]

Any rule that gives bonus strength when hunting rends is unfortunate, as you want more opportunities to roll 6s and then reroll on top of that 

[Slips]

Any rule that gives bonus strength when hunting rends is unfortunate, as you want more opportunities to roll 6s and then reroll on top of that 

True enough but, hey, you take what you can get. Its not like Dark Furies aren't in a similar situation if you decide to give them Talons Too.

[Nusquam]

Tartaros wouldn't be hunting other 2+ units anyway. You have cataphractii(4++) and Furies for that(they'll have a pair) for that going the CC route; while the standard route is to just shoot them with Mor Deythan or podded Seekers or one of the numerous rapid strike options we have.

 

Tartaros, give the sarge a Talon or two in case of 2+ sarges, but have them hunt tac blobs and other scoring they can sweep off.

 

It's all about the right tool for the job.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I don't think I'd ever give talons to a unit just going after normal 3+ save dudes or for the purposes of killing 2+; furies its nice because you get the ability to threaten vehicles and dreads (especially av 13 ones) with the rending, but terminators already have access to either option without having to go for talons

[defl0]

So what do you guys think of castellax now that they are 105 base?

 

Also, how do run them?

[Nusquam]

I'm also speaking a lot from rule of cool. How fitting is it to have a few talon-equipped tartaros hunting enemy scoring elements in a Darkwing(that was purchased as a DT as not to use up valuable FA slots)? Hit hard, fast, and leave no survivors. Swords, combi-plasma, and a chainfist or two get its done if you're going for optimization sure. But imagine the tartaros suit equipped with the talons from the new Chooser of the Slain model.

 

As for castellax, they needed a price increase. They've had it for a little while already actually, just wasn't in the errata until now. My plan with them hasn't changed, just went up a reasonable amount of points. Praevian with camo, boarding shield, and combi-melta attached to castellax with Darkfires and ETA infiltrated or outflanked depending. Then in ZM drop the camo.

[Hesh Kadesh]

From a tactics point of view, if you have the points to spend for upgrades, you may get more use out of power weapons/ fists/chainfists upgrades or artificer armour across the army may be better turned out. From a more hardline tactics point of view, as they add to points bloat of units that don't need it, and shouldn+t be included on Terminators, as cheaper, better more appropriate/reliable AP2 is available.

 

From a much lower optimization view point, they're a pure uograde on lightning claws. It is up to you to see if you can find the points in the list.

[defl0]

really? You like the dark fire cannons?

 

1. I kinda feel like you want them in HTH in a Raven Guard force. Wrecker or the extra attack seems like better points to spend.
2. Are dark fires really any good? You need a 6 to pen... It's just a lascannon that doesn't oblit T4 right?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Dark fires are the way to go, let's you leverage their infiltrate to get good shots off and adds to the turn 1 alpha strike. Why wait until turn 2 to be able to charge when you can be killing their scorpius or medusas or what have you on turn 1? The guns simply add another option for ap 2 anti tank fire that lends itself well to MSU and isn't a heavy option.

[defl0]

Right, but you can take multi meltas for free. Things like scorpius and medusas are aren't go to have ceremite. Plus you an totally get to 12".

[Nusquam]

I like Darkfires for putting the hurt on other automata thanks to blind, some AP2 to cut down termis that were in the spartan I just popped, or hitting side/rear armor.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can't get within 12" for turn one as you have to be more than 18" away (meaning you should be around 1/32 away as most people just measure 18" even though its over 18, you get my point), making them rather less good, unless you get a really amazing Infiltrate off. The whole point is to maximize the alpha strike with grav cannons going for spartans, mor deythan going for high value foot units, castellax going for medium vehicles and then what ever you cram into pods (seekers, dread pods, etc) also coming in to drop plasma/melta/grav to really hamstring them on turn 1

[Hesh Kadesh]

6" Move after Infiltrating out of Line of Sight/18"+6" Move.

 

I just can't find it worthwhile to pop 150-165ppm into multiple Castellax with ETA's, Darkfires and Power Blades.

[SkimaskMohawk]

When you infiltrate in line of sight the rules say you have to be more than 18" away, if you have to be more than 18" then a 6" move couldn't possibly bring you within 12". It's doable if you infiltrate out of line of sight, but you have to be out of line of sight from the entire army with at least a dude and a monstrous creature, so it'll be tricky at best.

 

I probably would skip on the power blades unless I had left over points

[Sircyn]

I only use Praevians and Castellax in big games. I really love the chaplain for my one consul in smaller points levels.

 

I have a unit of four with maulers, ETA, a flamer each and a couple of power blades as that's how they're modelled.

 

I use them to rampage around enemy blob squads and basically bully anything that's not a terminator. They make a great distraction carnifex! With stealth and in cover they can be a demoralising prospect for an opponent to dig out.

 

In a list typically focusing on alpha strike and associated with glass cannons, having 16 T7 wounds sitting in the enemy deployment zone gives me some refreshing durability.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Sircyn

[defl0]

6" Move after Infiltrating out of Line of Sight/18"+6" Move.

 

I just can't find it worthwhile to pop 150-165ppm into multiple Castellax with ETA's, Darkfires and Power Blades.

 

Yeah. That kinda where my head is... 

 

I feel ok with with the concept of a T7 1W 3+/5++ AP2 Str 6 1 A model with infiltrating for 26 pts though... Which Castellax basically are... 

 

All the extra stuff really adds up quickly. Kitted out it more like 41 pts per wound. It's a bump from basic MEQ to TEQ. 

 

I think after the point bump, running them naked with maybe a wrecker or 2 in the squad is how I think I will try them out. 

 

Thoughts?

[Nusquam]

I avoid having anything that moves less than 12", with a transport or otherwise, for an AT-CC role. Even with infiltrating up close, unless you're facing forts, your targets are just going to move away or are expendable to begin with. Infiltrating a praevian and castellax up close and blasting something puts them to work instantly. Though there's always an exception to the rule, like facing a LR/Dracosan rush where the tanks come to you.

 

Unless you mean just punching things in general. I would put those points to an ETA first; +1BS/-1 to cover is great(helps up the chances to wound and therefore pin or blind). They make great scouring units and most of their time is going to be spent shooting. Again though, if you know you're facing an aggressive melee army that may change things.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I'm not sure anyone is really advocating S6/7 guys become AT anything. It helpsmif they get fed a contemptor, but even back when the praevian was first released there was less benefit in taking a CC build, instead taking a Praevian with a Bilter, move forward, and then try and PE your shots for BS4 2 shot Darkfire. At 140pts base, it is a rather significant chunk of your army that is only marginally better than a Predator with Lascannons and a Plasma turret.

 

They are no longer the almost autotake they once were.

[Nusquam]

defl0 mentioned wreckers, which are S10. So my first through was AT and so on you as you can see in my previous post. That's where I was coming from.

 

To be fair castellax' previous point cost was low and they offer significant strengths over anything with an AV thanks to being a MC.

[Hesh Kadesh]

S6/7 AP2 vs AV13?

 

Wreckers are as much a 'just in case' button to push like meltabombs. You can build someone to go hunting for armour so to speak, but similar to how noone (should, at least) advocates that meltabomb squads should be used to hunt armour in any major capacity, due to the fact that unless coming out of a Dreadclaw, you aren't doing AT job until turn 3 or 4.

 

If a Dreadnought comes looking for you, the wrecker may prove useful, but I agree Praevians are primarily ranged, with a way to spend points on just in case. With rage already, A WE assault build gets nothing special from a Casteplax, and I'd rather see them dropped an attack.

[Slips]

Arent they MCs and thus have Smash that they can use if your desperate for S10 hits?

[Hesh Kadesh]

True, But only 1 attack, no Tank Hunters, and AP2 only is a lot to ask for it to be 'AT'. They are panic buttons, and not really counted upon.

[defl0]

I think 1 or 2 wreckers are really required to protect your investment. The last thing you want is to be tied up in a bad match up after you have invested that many points in one squad.

 

Plus it gives you some tactical flexibility to threaten tanks even if they aren't your main target.

[SkimaskMohawk]

But you can smash for that tactical flexibility to threaten tanks 

[Charlo]

True, But only 1 attack, no Tank Hunters, and AP2 only is a lot to ask for it to be 'AT'. They are panic buttons, and not really counted upon.