[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm not saying don't expect to be allowed to play SL, I'm just pointing out that SL is in the same category of things you need consent for. There's a reason people haven't talked about using relics in their lists in the tactics section, because not being consistently use the same list undermines the tactics that go with it. 

[Nusquam]

I understand what you're saying, I just don't consider it such a barrier it can't be overcome. It's an additional step sure as well worth noting, but it's not on the same level as unfamiliar homebrews or experimental rules.

[Nusquam]

So I though infiltrating graviton gun support squads was special but its actually super easy to do and there's several ways to do it without shattered, legions like Skorr or Mortung.

 

Also read the Knight Errant rules. Jump pack apothecary-librarian giving out VPs, Prescience, and FnP is much, much more frightening.

[TompiQ]

The Errant rules seems beastly, can't wait to read up on them. How much would that ApothLibby cost in points?

 

So I've thought long and hard to figure out how to add some proper anti-tank to the triple Dark Fury list. In the end, I've had to realize that 30 furies and three vigilators is too much of a points investment, so I've decided to discard one unit. In exchange I've added two Primaris-Lightning fliers, one unlocked through an Auxilia detachment which also gives me a backfield objective holder plus a defense line with Comms Relay since I now have 4 fliers in the force. This is my current idea:

 

PRIMARY - RAVEN GUARD

HQ

Consul (Vigilator w. Jump Pack, Power Axe, Refractor Field, Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs) 145pts

Consul (Vigilator w. Jump Pack, Power Axe, Refractor Field, Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs) 145pts

 

Troops

Legion Tactical Squad, 10 men (Nuncio-Vox, Melta-Bombs on srg.) 165pts

Legion Tactical Squad 10 men (Nuncio-Vox, Melta-Bombs on srg.) 165pts

Legion Recon Squad, 5 men (Nuncio-Vox, 5 Melta Bombs) 160pts

 

Fast Attack

Dark Fury squad, 10 men (Melta-Bombs on Chooser) 330pts

Dark Fury squad, 10 men (Melta-Bombs on Chooser) 330pts

Primaris-Lightning (BSC, GTA, 4xKraken, 2xSunfury) 225pts

 

Heavy Support

Fire Raptor (Reaper Battery) 210pts

Fire Raptor (Reaper Battery) 210pts

 

Lord of War

Corax 450pts

 

ALLIED - SOLAR AUXILIA

HQ

Legate Commander 45pts

 

Troops

Lasrifle Section (Aegis Defense Line with Comms Relay) 170pts

 

Fast Attack

Primaris-Lightning (BSC, GTA, 4xKraken, 2xSunfury) 225pts

 

2975pts total

 

It's been confirmed on heresy30k that only one of the compulsory choices has to be Recon marines, so I decided on normal Tacticals to retain the number of bodies from before. 4 Nuncio-Vox should allow me to get great positioning on the fliers when they come in. All in all the list focuses on delivering one hell of a blow turn 2, with fliers opening the enemy metal boxes for the furies (which moves 42" before their turn 2 charge) and Corax to mince the contents.

 

I love the fact that I still have all elite slots (4k will see Mor Deythan for sure) as that's the slots I usually run out of in other lists. I'm starting to feel real comfortable with this concept, but would love input and tips from you guys!

[Hesh Kadesh]

Have recon squads gone up in price?

 

Also, no Aegis on the Solar Auxilia, Primary Detachment only. I like it.

[TompiQ]

Oh yeah, would you look at that, bummer. I could move it to my standard fortification slot though, no? (I actually don't remember if I've seen confirmation on Stronghold Assault fortifications being legal in 30k)

 

EDIT - Regarding Recon marines, it's 125 base, 5 each per bomb and then 10 for a Nuncio. So same old price.

Edited February 12, 2016 by TompiQ

[Caillum]

Yeah, works fine in a standard Fort slot.

 

Also, Recon Squads (with that gear) cost that much Hesh.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Coulda sworn Recons were only 100pts per model. What moron decided to give Recon Marines a 25pt base cost? XD.

[TompiQ]

Pffft, Scout and the ability to lower the armour save in order to infiltrate is totally worth it!

 

I mean, come on, it's not like they cost more than twice as much as normal scouts in 40k while having the same statline when in recon armour. Right?

 

And it's not like a 5-man sniper unit costs 10 points less than an equally kitted Mor Deythan squad (15 more than the Mor if you give the Recon Cameleoline to match the Mor's native stealth). Come on man, their value is obvious!

 

...bloody tax. 

[Nusquam]

Poor recons. I think they got the bad end of paying for rules and options, outflank/scout/acute senses, that they won't always use. Maybe they'll get a revamp.

 

So looking at FW today, contemptor-cortus are identical in appearance to regular contemptors(now known as Prime-Contemptors formally). Which makes them super easy to include if you already have a contemptor. Especially for the podded double-gravfist loadout so save a chunk of points and get some CC buffs. It's a win win.

 

For Knight Errants, I'm playing with this loadout:

 

Knight Errant 215

• ML2, Narthecium, Jump Pack, Force Axe

Snag Prescience and the roll on telepathy. Attach, alongside a Vigilator, to a Dark Fury squad in a Recon Company and go to town.

Also just noticed it's any model deployed via infiltrate/scout. Shrouded transports like rhinos and proteus.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Nusquam

[TompiQ]

Would undoubtedly be brutal. Are they Centurion statline? And what rules do they retain as Errants, comparing to Garro?

[Nusquam]

Yes, except one lower initiative for some reason, and identical rules save for Garros unique wargear.

 

More on the any model gets shrouded bit.

 

• Outriders loaded for CC will have a 2+ jink thanks to scout.
• Shrouded Proteus with shrouded destroyers/moritat or seekers.
• Shrouded Mor Deythan.
• Shrouded anything with a vigilator like Dark Furies or AM blobs.

But still, RG got a great deal with the ReCo. If AMs become viable they can hop in front to give out a 2+ to whatever is behind them. Or even better, Outriders. They have a built in jink save. Have the outriders go off in front, jink for a 2+ then grant the Fury's(or whatever) behind them a 2+. Then turn two comes and you make a mess of things. Even against barrage you'll have a 5+ cover in case of phosphex. Though you're likely going first so you can drop your own phosphex on them(which will have a 2+ save for return fire), or whatever else you have infiltrated/scouted(like Nex to chainfire into them and pick out the crew thanks to precision shots).

 

Always wanted a good reason to use outriders. And Nex will get shrouded even if he doesnt deploy via his Prey rule.

[Terminus]

Yes, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Raven Guard really like this Rite of War.  I'm actually thinking of going back to the scout/infiltrate breacher squad with vigilator for one of the troop choices. They basically start 12" away from the enemy and have 4+ cover in the open.

[Nova_chron]

I've had a bit of a dilemma on my hands I really want to make a decapitation strike list but after seeing the recon company it provides many of the same perks minus drop pods and PE (independent characters). Would it be better to run the recon company or am I missing limitations beyond have to take a 3rd troop must be recon and heavy vehicles must be in reserve. Edited February 15, 2016 by Nova_chron

[jay170788]

I've had a bit of a dilemma on my hands I really want to make a decapitation strike list but after seeing the recon company it provides many of the same perks minus drop pods and PE (independent characters). Would it be better to run the recon company or am I missing limitations beyond have to take a 3rd troop must be recon and heavy vehicles must be in reserve.

 

Just reading this and it is something that has tickled at me for a while but never affected me enough to warrant looking too greatly into it. But now I am looking to start a Raven Guard army I suppose I need to get to the bottom of it.

 

Does Preferred Enemy (IC) confer to the squad. So do I re-roll 1's against a squad that has an IC attached to it. The preferred enemy rules afaik aren't worded in a way that reads well with mixed unit types so a little clarification would be awesome guys. I guessed you guys would know best as it is a big part of the RofW for Raven Guard.

[Nusquam]

It's only when you directly affect the IC, like fighting in a challenge or tagging them with a precision strike/shot then wounding against them.

 

As for the Decap vs ReCo, the only real difference is the pods vs shrouded for us. Both are flexible in their own way. Decap offers precision response via the drop pods. You can get them exactly where you want them. While Recon Company gives you resilience. As RG we get to infiltrate almost everything so it's easy to take full advantage of the shrouded rule for it. You won't be able to strike deep in enemy lines as soon vs pods, but most of your force will be able to move up or hold locations while you strike vital points. Both favor ambush style warfare with sightly different advantages.

 

The real defining point is the drawbacks. Decap only allows one consul and HS, while ReCo doesn't. Thought he HS have to start in reserves, things like Fire Raptors and Deathstorms already do. Sicarans are fast. Being RG it's unlikely you're taking basilisk squadrons with ReCo anyway. The other difference is the third troop that must be a recon squad. They can make a good MB delivery squad, or just hang back with sniper rifles on a home or far flung objective. Now when I originally read ReCo I thought it implied that "Recon Squads are compulsory troops (while other troops are not)", but that might not be the case after all. The third compulsory might just have to be a recon squad.

 

ReCo also scales up better. Not having any slots cut means it's easier to fill out points in bigger games, while keeping even humble tac marines relatively safe from the larger amount o fire power, barring a typhon.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I personly think Decap Strike is better because of Medusa and Typhon access, but YMMV. :)

[Nusquam]

Theres no restrictions on LoWs for the recon company. Just no termis and HS start in rerserve. So typhon away.

[Nova_chron]

So it really feels like 2 ways to do the same thing... I guess I will build to be able to use both

[Hesh Kadesh]

Managed to pick up a copy of the rules to tie me over until I get the full book, thanks for the calrification on the Lord of War Nusquam :)

 

The problem with the recon detachment is how it means you have to take Recon Squads; it's not just removing the Support Unit special rule, it's making them Compulsory, and then giving you an additional unit tax, so you're sitting at 375pts for 15 Bolter Armed models. Sure, you can give them a Cameleoline skin for a 2+ in Cover, but that's 450pts for Bolters, and then either Meltabombs or Sniper Rifles to make the unit vaguely useable, you've got 525pts tied into 15 MEQ's with a 2+ Cover Save. Sure, they can objective camp, but a stiff breeze would knock them off as melee gets ever more popular in some capacity in game. You have the benefit of not needing to make your Recon Squads have 4+ Armour, but that has the downside of not having Move Through Cover.

 

15 Snipers is 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1-2 dead a turn, maybe 3 with an AP2 or Precision shot to kill a special. It might help put wounds on Mech list, but then they have Cover reduction or Ignores cover out the wazoo, and they mostly force rerolls on the stuff you'd otherwise want to Snipe. It they had AP4, like an "Astartes Pattern Sniper Rifle" variant, sure, then they'd have their roll in gibbing out Thallax/Ursarax type.

 

The Heavy Support limit is a pain; mainly because I'm not sure what else you'd have. No Terminators means you lose out on a S6 Power Axe Terminators which give some rather hefty melee punch, and with the addition of a Rad Nade Forge Lord, you can charge them at things, and the new Tartaros Armour (see Jan 2016 FAQ), you can sweep, which lets you rip through any previous meta FNP Blobs left over.

 

I'm struggling to think of how I'd otherwise build around that, especially as the one bonus you get is completely lost after the first turn. Decap Strike lets you bring cheap Drop Pods, and still have space left over for your fun Dark Fury squads, which in my estimation, is king, especially combined with infiltrating Nuncio Voxes. 160pts for a 10 Man Tac Squad with Nuncio, 195 with a Rhino, compared to 160 for a 5 Man Recon Squad with Meltabombs/Sniper Rifles and a Nuncio Vox. Be shrouded for a 2+ Save 1st turn only, or have a potentially 4+ Obscured AV11 3 Hull points between you and damage, bringing in some accurate Deep Striking pods which can debuss, then unleash fury, or have a 4+ Cover from JP Vigilator anyway. 

 

Decap Strike even allows gives you Predatory Strike which does the same thing. That you only get a single Heavy Support choice isn't even that much of a problem, because it can at least deploy on the battlefield. 

 

Considering that a Camo Scout Squad can go to ground for a 3+ Cover anyway, what this list brings is the ability to try and go first more reliably, at the expense of 3 terrible unit taxes. I'm not a fan. 

[Caillum]

^ Fingers crossed for a Recon Squad price reduction in the updated LA:CAL!

[TompiQ]

From what I've been told only one of the compulsories has to be a Recon squad though, so you're "only" taxed with one overpriced troop unit compared to other RoWs though.

 

(I'd discuss further, but my phone is a pain to write on so I'll post more when I get home from work tonight)

[Nusquam]

When i read the wording i thought it implied that recons are the only compulsory choices, since it doesnt remove support squad from their rules like other RoWs that interact with support squads. Ive seen other interpretations where it can be argued that they are just added to available compulsory troops.

 

Recon squads could do with a point drop but i do like what they offer in terms of equipment and scout. It caters to my playstyle well. Rather than having one of my tac squads march up and take pot shots en route to objectives recons can also infiltrating on power armor, scout towards it, sprint, and assault it with shotguns. Then the other can hang back with rifles and be better at supporting the midfield. The third compulsory isnt optimal but i can think of worse restrictions.

 

I also like it for RG because of thematics and I dont feel Maun is an autotake because it has built in reroll sieze. Then i can fish for a good strategic trait with a generic MotL.

[Terminus]

Only one squad has to be a recon squad, and that's the third compulsory choice.  It is up to you if you want to take recon squads for the base two compulsory choices, but it's not mandatory.

 

Personally, I'm looking at ideas for infiltrating/scouting/shrouded (raven guard easily add stealth too) assault marines and/or breachers, especially if they receive any buffs in the next red book.

[Nusquam]

The wording is weird on it, they haven't "standardized" effect/restriction wordings. On the UM Vigil RoW it explicitly states Recon lose the support squad special rule and may be taken as compulsory. That's what lead me to believe that the ReCo has them as mandatory, since that just says they are compulsory.