[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[SkimaskMohawk]

Destroyers point for point, do better against cataphractii or other 2+ 4++ targets than dark furies. Their pistols give them the edge and any ranged weapon compared to additional furies will just exacerbate that. But they also occupy different FoC slots.

 

Destroyers are more of general close range unit, able to deal with multiple targets well. And they're such a dark horse now, that if you take ten as a throwaway flanking unit, they for sure won't be prioritized.

 

Also the praevian doesn't confer infiltrate, you're forced to outflank by the interaction.

[STC Logisengine]

Aha, I had missed that line "and do not benefit from the Legiones Astartes rule possessed by the Praevian." in the latest Errata, oh well, outflanking can work too :)

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

How would one best construct a Traitor Raven Guard army?

[Gorgoff]

How would one best construct a Traitor Raven Guard army?

Just like a loyal one but with more anger issues.

[Charlo]

So it all depends on the story right?

 

You need some fluff and a motivation for your dudes turning against Corax and the Emperor and then it will all fall into place ;)

[Monkeychunks]

How would one best construct a Traitor Raven Guard army?

 

Depends how you define 'best'. If you want to explore fluff or have a cool thing in mind, obviously that's your one and only priority.

If you're looking for gameplay advice, there are few positives to playing Traitor:

• Traitor Heralds (as opposed to Loyalist Heralds)
• Outcast Sons and Sacrificial Offering Rites of War
• Hunter-Killer Shattered Legion
• Allied Daemons (and the Psyarkana that summons Brutes)
• Allies that make use of Traitor-Specific Rites, Characters or Units

 

This comes at the expense of running our own Loyalist characters, Liberation Forces, or allied Custodes and Sisters.

 

Heralds are a great reason to run Traitor, and the charge buff combines very nicely with Fleet to provide long-ranged charges. The rerolls are also nice to have, if redundant on our best melee units (Furies). Outcast Sons is either extremely good, or very mediocre, depending on how you interpret the rules. Preferred Enemy is a massive melee buff if you can keep it up, although again it's a little redundant on Furies or in combination with a Herald. On the other hand, Sacrificial Offering is fairly worthless as it provides buffs we already have (Outflank and Ld-resistant Militia) at the expense of losing Infiltrate and not coming onto the board until T2 at best.

The Shattered Legion Hunter-Killers is a whole other beasty and completely changes the game on it's head. I've not tried it myself but I suspect an army built on Infiltrated Seekers, plus a core of Furies to pick up VP, has some merit. At the very least it will be fluffy and fun to play.

Allied Daemons are nothing particularly special I think. Raven Guard are already well-equipped to get Scoring units upfield, and neither faction has any inherent synergy with the other. Similarly all of our best Allies are Loyalist-aligned and I can think of very little that we need from a Traitor-perspective.

 

If I were playing Traitor, I would suggest looking at a melee-based Outcast Sons who abuse Preferred Enemy and Sweeping Advances on top of massed Infiltrate. Stuff like big Despoiler bricks, Destroyers and Command Squads to throw a lot of bodies in the enemies face with long T2 charges.

Alternatively, run a Hunter-Killer mission with massed Seekers, Recon Squads and Dark Furies for a violent kill-em-all playstyle. Note that this is opponents-permission-only, and requires you to also have an Emperor's Children HQ model available.

[MorgothNL]

Fellow Ravens! I'm currently putting all my efforts in converting a model to represent Nykona Sharrowkyn. If do manage to get to a great result on said model, I'd of course lik to field him with rules representing Sharrowkyn as best as 'realistically' possible. This is where I would like to get some help, I'm looking to creature a profile for him that is fun to play with and against.

 

So this is more or less what I would like to see:

 

230 PTS

 

WS  BS  S  T  W  I  A  LD  Sv

 6      6    4  4   3  5  4  10   2+

 

So it's a Praetor statline with an improved BS. 

Lore wise like to give him WS 7 and/or Initiative 6, but I think that would be too much in-game.

 

Wargear:

- Artificer armour (representing the bits and pieces of different armour sets he's wearing after Istvann, fixed and improved by his Iron Hands buddy Wayland)

- Refractor Field (I'd like to give him a 4++, but I think he should stick to 5++ and have another way of reducing incoming damage)

- Twin black gladius (+1A, S+1, AP2, 2-handed, murderous strike that improves to 5+ in a challenge, master crafted)

- Modified Jump pack (Allowing him to use the JP in both the movement and assault phase)

- Needle sniper rifle (36", S3, Fleshbane, with either choice of; Assault 2, Rending  OR Heavy 2, Rending 5+)

- Shroud Bombs

- Frag & Krak grenades

 

Special Rules:

So this is where it gets much harder. He is supposed to have the wraithslipping ability that Corax has, but same is said about the Mor Deythan and they only have stealth and shroud bombs to show for it. Yet, I would like to see him be able to be a bit more solo-viable than a normal character.

 

- Legiones Astartes (Raven Guard)

- Hit and Run

- Infiltrate (not lost by having a jump pack)

- Scout

- Independent Character

- Precision Shot

- Precision Strike

- Counter Attack

 

- Master of the Shadows - this gives Sharrowkyn Steath and Shrouded. However these do not confer to a unit he has joined

(This seems like an elegant solution to give him some solo-viability. Giving him a 4+ cover save in the open, but not buffing a unit. Plus in combat this would be of no effect, bringing him back to his 2+, 5++)

- Wraithslipping - any shots taken at Sharrowkyn at a distance of more than 18" are snapshots. This rule is lost when he joins a unit. (again, improving his solo-viability without improving other units and again mitigated in close combat and short range).

- Skilled Duelist - This gives Sharrowkyn +1 initiative in a challenge

 

 

I'd put this character at 230pts. This is the same as Sigismund. While Sigismund would most certainly beat this Sharrowkyn 99/100 times because of Sigismund constant instant death + Eternal Warrior + Iron halo + forcing reroll invul saves.. I do think that 230pts is justified because of the solo-viability of the Sharrowkyn rules and the fact that he can do some ranged damage. I'm pretty sure he'd also lose vs characters like Eidolon and Qin Xa due to the 4++, same initiative and sonic shriekers those kind of characters have.

 

 

Points cost approach:

- Praetor basic cost

- Refractor field cost

- Wraithslipping + Master of Shadows +15 (so this with the refractor field adds up to the same pts as an iron halo. And I consider the tradeoff quite fair. Sharrowkyn is more durable vs shooting but less so in combat. And since the rules invite Sharrowkyn to walk alone, 1 lucky hit could still insta kill him).

- Jump pack basic cost

- Needle rifle +10

- Twin Black Gladius +50 (sits just below the diving blade that offers +2S and constant instant death, and 10pts above a master crafted paragon blade)

- Shroud Bombs +5

- Infiltrate +10 (RG already have it, but I gave him +5 cause he can do so with JP)

- NO master of the legion -0 (no points reduction for losing this rule, for compensating the 'free' rules below )

- Scout, Hit&Run, Precision strike, Precision Shot, Counter Attack - I did not add specific points for these. I think such rules are often just part of a named character that are not directly reflected in his points. And I already gave extra pts for infiltrate.. which kind of falls in that same category but felt more powerful since he's a lone wolf type character. Plus without Master of the Legion, there'd need to be an actual Praetor or Delegatus in the army to acces ROW, which combined with Sharrowkyn is quite the points sink.

 

 

So all in all this makes Sharrowkyn a fun lone character to play like Kaedes Nex, but of a Praetor caliber. He would take some good manoeuvring and timing to play well I think. He cannot stand up against the real elite units with S8 and/or AP2 out there that will insta-kill him easily with his 5++. But with he would be a good harass unit when tossed into non-cc units or a good challenge character when backed up by a unit (se he doesn't get ganked after the challenge).

 

 

So, what do you guys think? Do these rules seem fair? Anything you'd change? I tried to get him to be close to the lore, but not OP.

Edited October 13, 2019 by MorgothNL

[SkimaskMohawk]

So here's my thoughts.

 

It's really hard to create a "fluff accurate" rule set for sharrowkyn. McNeil has this tendency to make his raven guard characters really really skilled in both fighting and stealth. As a result, sharrowkyn is a mor deythan who's so skilled in melee he wipes the floor with lucius in an actual sword fight. Not like the guys who result to grappling to offset the disparity, or sanahkt who uses active precognition and still lost their initial duel; sharrowkyn is so skilled and fast the lucius doesn't even know what happened.

 

As for the actual rules, I think you've done a good job of conveying his flavour, while also not making him broken or anything. Hes quite good at chopping characters and terminators, but so is an equivalent praetor with paragon blade. Scout and infiltrate are very strong, except on melee units since they can't charge after using them. Hit and run is very good, especially on jump pack characters.

 

If anything, I'd say he's a bit over costed, but only because he's still just a melee blender with no rerolls and no anti-vehicle. Missing master of the legion is huge too, so you have to get a delegatus in there if you want a rite. 215 or 210 feels better.

[MorgothNL]

Thank you for your input! I think I agree with everything you said . There is no instance that I can remember from the lore where he comes up against any type of vehicle, so I didn't want to give him anti-vehicle options too just to make him better. I have thought about giving him zealot in the first round of combat or something, but I didn't want to give him an overload of special rules, and like you said, if you follow the lore you'd end up with a 300pts character. 

 

Maybe give him the extra initiative in his statline and not just on the charge? This would make him a little bit more consistent but still less powerful than zealot I'd say. He'd still have a tough time vs 3++ saves and Emperors Children characters that charge him (with them getting +2 initiative in that case.. Eidolon would certainly kill him outright), but he should do better on his own charge and vs other legions.

I don't see a way of making him beat an Emperors Children character, like he beat Lucius in the lore, without making him completely OP vs every other character in the proces.

Edited October 14, 2019 by MorgothNL

[SkimaskMohawk]

I feel like giving him more bonuses in challenges would be a good solve. Most of the time they won't be applicable and there's multiple avenues of counter play in terms of refusal, accepting with a seargent, or even heroic intervention. Plus it pairs well against EC since they have to challenge. You could combine all the bonuses under a special rule called "Deadly Focus" or something to show how he excels against one target. Maybe even roll in the enhanced instant death and make it so it doesn't spill over if you're worried about that type of move.

[MorgothNL]

I feel like giving him more bonuses in challenges would be a good solve. Most of the time they won't be applicable and there's multiple avenues of counter play in terms of refusal, accepting with a seargent, or even heroic intervention. Plus it pairs well against EC since they have to challenge. You could combine all the bonuses under a special rule called "Deadly Focus" or something to show how he excels against one target. Maybe even roll in the enhanced instant death and make it so it doesn't spill over if you're worried about that type of move.

EDIT:

I've made a general post about this ruleset in this forums rules section to also reach non-RG players. So consider please post any further comments there and consider the enquiry in this subforum closed :). 

----

 

Those are very good points and would make the rules much more streamlined. Making it 1 special rule that enhances multiple qualities but all specific to a challenge. 

 

So then I would become something like:

 

230 PTS

 

WS  BS  S  T  W  I  A  LD  Sv

6      6    4  4   3  5  5  10   2+

 

Wargear:

- Artificer armour

- Refractor Field 

- Twin black gladius

- Jump pack

- Needle sniper rifle 

- Shroud Bombs

- Frag & Krak grenades

 

Special Rules:

- Legiones Astartes (Raven Guard)

- Independent Character

- Counter-Attack

- Master of the Shadows

- Wraithslipping

- Deadly Focus

 

Master of shadows:

This confers a 3+ cover save (that can never be improved) and the Scout and Infiltrate special rules to Sharrowkyn.

 

Wraithslipping: 

Any shots taken at Sharrowkyn from more than 18" away, are taken at BS1 with blasts templates always counting as indirect fire. This ability is lost when Sharrowkyn joins a unit. Additionally Sharrowkyn may use his Jump-Pack in both the movement and assault phase and gains the Hit&Run special rule. This is not conferred to a unit he has joined, but he may attempt a Hit&Run move regardless. If successful, he will be separated from his unit.

 

Deadly Focus:

This confers the Precision Strike special rule to Sharrowkyn. Additionally when fighting in a Challenge he gains +1 Initiative, his invulnerable save is improved to 4+ and the Murderous Strike of his Twin Black Gladii is improved to 5+. Only Murderous Strike rolls of a '6' spill over to the unit, other wounds are resolved with the normal profile.

 

Weapon                         Range        Str    AP      Type

Needle Sniper Rifle         

- Quick Shot                     36"            4       4        Assault 2, Rending, Fleshbane, Sniper

- Focused Shot                36"            4       4        Heavy 2, Rending 5+, Fleshbane, Sniper

 

Weapon                         Range       Str      AP     Type

Twin Black Galdii              Melee      +1       2        Master-Crafted, Murderous Strike (Note, these are two separate Gladius blades used together as a matched pair and the bonus for wielding 2 melee weapons had already been included in Sharrrowkyns Profile)

 

 

EDIT:

- Changed the snapshot at 18"+ to BS1 shots with indirect fire for blasts. To still allow blasts to fire at him.

- Tweaked his cover save to a straight up 3+. Getting rid of possible 2+ cover in terrain and cleaning up the text about him having stealth + Shrouded but not giving it to a unit.

- Reduced him to 5 Attacks (including the +1 for 2 weapons)

Edited October 17, 2019 by MorgothNL

[MorgothNL]

Does anyone run Kaedes Nex often? I'm still waiting for some bits for my Sharrowkyn conversion, and converted a Kaedes Nex in the mean time. 

Kaedes seems fun but it feels like the negatives greatly outweigh the positives and don't make him stand up vs a normal plasma moritat.

 

Pro's

- Special infiltrate which still allows a T1 charge

- He doesn't have the lone killer rule so benefits from ROW

- Extra VP chances 

 

Cons

- 3+ armour save -.-

- 2 Wounds

- Weapons are just S4 AP4 rending, capped at 12 hits max. That evens out at about 4-6 wounds out of which 1 rend vs a normal 3+ squad.

- Not even a power weapon to help in CC. 'Just' his rending pistols. Such a shame with I6 and 4 attacks 

- Single character that will die as soon as he shows he face 

- A dual plasma moritat on foot comes to the same pts but has 2+ armour and S7 AP2 guns that (with the latest FAQ) only overheat at 1's.

 

So, can anyone tell me about running him? Is he just a distraction and did the 12 hit cap nerf him to useless? The only thing I can see him do that achieves something is tie up mortis contemptor or try and hit a scorpius tank or something (but most opponents won't allow that to happen).

[SkimaskMohawk]

I played a game last friday that included him in my list. The idea was that between him and a knight errant, I'd be able to get an advantage on victory points. Sadly, the variety of changes to Chain Fire hurt him pretty badly (and he was pretty underwhelming to start). Previously, you could chain fire the target and then charge them right from turn 1 to try and ensure a kill, but the changes to chain fire mean you lose all of your ranged output if you want to charge. He ended up not getting his extra VP, though I still won due to claiming Pride of the Legion and the Knight Errant protect oath of moment.

[MorgothNL]

I played a game last friday that included him in my list. The idea was that between him and a knight errant, I'd be able to get an advantage on victory points. Sadly, the variety of changes to Chain Fire hurt him pretty badly (and he was pretty underwhelming to start). Previously, you could chain fire the target and then charge them right from turn 1 to try and ensure a kill, but the changes to chain fire mean you lose all of your ranged output if you want to charge. He ended up not getting his extra VP, though I still won due to claiming Pride of the Legion and the Knight Errant protect oath of moment.

Thanks, that is how I imagine him now with the changes to chain fire and his weak guns to start with. Such a shame for he is one of the more unique characters rules wise . It seems easy to fix him, just allow the charge after chain fire or improve his guns slightly.

 

EDIT: Here he is (still waiting for a Lokens head to arrive so I can correctly create his non-mohawk short hair and have him screaming while running).

Edited October 28, 2019 by MorgothNL

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well to be fair, my opponent had a list that I just should not have been able to beat. He was running pride, so all of his otherwise elite units were troops, with the only hqs attached to 10 man terminator squads in Spartans; my list has very little Spartan contingencies.

 

I think a substantial points drop with no further work on Nex, or a tweak to his chain fire and a minor point drop would be appropriate.

[MrBadweed]

I recently aquired a Deathwatch Corvus Thingy to use as a Darkwing. But now, i dont see what to put in it. Rhinos do fine for Mor Deythans. I like my seekers on the table to plink away turn one. So the only unit i really see meching with its payload are dark furys/termis, it being an assault vehicle and all that.

 

Am i missing anything ? How do you use yours ? Do you prefer the basic Gunship ?

[Charlo]

Just a big tactical blob with additional combat weapons could be decent. Go and grab an objective late game.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Theres a couple of problems with storm eagles in general. First, they're expensive. Second, they don't have the best offensive loadout. Third, they're slow; their unit can at best assault turn 3. Fourth, they can't take jump pack units like the storm raven could. Basically, the dreadclaw outperforms it on its main role while being in the same slot. There's some effective air cav lists with a bunch of eagles, but when just bringing one, it's better not to.

 

The darkwing has some differences. It has stealth, making it far more durable. It has outflank, giving it the ability to hit vehicles in the side arc on arrival, as well as having more options for future movement. It's also a dedicated for veterans and terminators, meaning you don't have to take up your fast attack slots. Instead, you can fill up on the extremely undercosted javelin (or other stuff) to support a more elite air cav list. Its missiles are also primarily there to debuff multi-wound models with concussive into blind for WS+BS+I 1. It does only have a 16 man capacity though.

[Monkeychunks]

Generally speaking, I don't think the Darkwing is very good. It pays points over a standard Storm Eagle for something that could generously be called a sidegrade, and the Eagle wasn't stellar to begin with.

 

The obvious comparison is between a Darkwing and an Eagle with 2 Lascannons. I'd also strongly recommend giving the Eagle a Multi Melta. This means that you have a 265pt Eagle against a 275pt Darkwing. For those points:

- Blast templates trade S5/AP4 for S4/AP5, Blind and Concussive. Blind is great when it triggers but it's unreliable. Personal preference really, it's a fair choice.

- Nose Heavy Bolter vs Multi Melta. Owing to PotMS, the Melta is far, far superior IMO because you are already splitting guns between hard anti-tank (Lascannons) and anti-infantry (Missiles). You can PotMS your missiles into infantry while shooting everything else at a tank; the Bolter will rarely be used.

- Stealth. A good rule on the wrong platform; equates to a 6++ unless you sacrifice shooting to Jink for a 3++. The Darkwing pays way too much to be a dedicated transport and needs to be fighting as it delivers to be worthwhile.

- Outflank. Means far less on a Flier than on a slower unit, but flanking Lascannons are decent.

- Smaller transport. 16 is still plenty, Raven Guard don't tend to use big Terminator squads.

 

The core problem with both Eagles and Darkwings is that you are paying for both a gunship and a transport, but struggle to do both. If you are shooting, you're not jinkng. If you are deploying troops, you're not protected from shooting. If you are in Reserves, you are not contributing anything Turn 1 which is Raven Guard happy hour.

It's a very expensive method to deliver a decent melee squad, with some covering fire on the way in. I'd personally just use a Dreadclaw and stop trying to do jobs half-heartedly.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Potms overrides jink, so you can shoot a weapon at full bs. Concussive on multiwound units makes blind almost guaranteed.

 

But ya, the chassis is just too many points on the whole.

[suxdavide]

How do you guys usually field maunn? in a reco team? in a breacher team for more resisitance?

 

I'm looking for a way to include it in my list and I'm probably missing something

[Claws and Effect]

Odd question here that doesn't seem to have an obvious answer.

 

How do the Melta rule and Rending interact?

 

Like, say I equip a unit of Mor Deythan with combi-meltas and use their Fatal Strike ability on something while in Melta range.

 

Do I get an extra d3 on armor penetration for each 6 I roll? So if I roll 2 6s do I get an additional 2d3?

 

Not that it would matter since I don't think anything in the game wouldn't be penetrated by a total of 20 anyway. Just curious how that interaction would work.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea its a potential of 2d3. Something like this happened back in 5th with the vindicares turbo generator round where it let you roll 3d6 for armour pen.

[Claws and Effect]

Yea its a potential of 2d3. Something like this happened back in 5th with the vindicares turbo generator round where it let you roll 3d6 for armour pen.

Interesting, but seems kinda pointless.

 

If the rend kicks in it means you rolled 2 6s and penetrated up to 19 armor.

 

I don't think there's anything a penetration roll of 20 wouldn't get through in the first place.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It is pointless. On the whole the rending portion was to make the non special weapons have a bit more punch when activated. Plasma is still the best weapon to use MD with imo.