Questions Regarding Organization, Markings (Legio XIII)

[Ramell]

I've more or less jumped ship to the Great Crusade / Horus Heresy era, starting with a vow for ETL III. But I do have a number of questions I'd like answered before I really get going, mainly regarding Legion organization and markings. I'd very much like advice from all the lovely and knowledgeable people in this forum. 

 

 

Organization:

 

I have, ahem, gained access to a digital copy of Betrayal. It's not something I'm proud of, but I couldn't really jump in without knowing the unit configurations and options for Legions (this was before FW announced the stand-alone Crusade army list book). 

 

Now, this book has a rather lovely organization chart for a typical legion, down to the component units of a company. However, the Chapter>Battalion>Company organization conflicts with Know No Fear, which claims the Ultramarines consist of twenty-five chapters, each made up of ten companies of thousand marines. I don't like companies being that large. 

I'd rather like the organization to be something like twenty-five chapters with ten battalions each, of ten hundred-strong companies each, and otherwise following the chart in Betrayal. This way, the battalion would replace the offical Company, and be equivalent to the post-Heresy Chapter, and Companies equivalent to Companies.

 

I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on this, please.

 

Lieutenants. The chart in Betrayal has companies divided into three parts, containing three squads, with each third being led by a Lieutenant. I'd like to follow this, but I have no idea how to represent the Lieutenant. I can't find any more info on the position, and there's no Lt. in the rules. So I'm thinking that rather than a separate officer, the Lieutenant is simply the leader of one of the squads, and that aside from perhaps some markings, I shouldn't think too much of it. Does this make sense? 

 

Company Command Squads. In the Horus Heresy ruleset, only Praetors can have command squads, but the chart lists a Company Command Bodyguard Squad and a Company Standard Bearer. Each company would be led by a Centurion rather than a Praetor, so I'm think the best way to represent the Company Command Squad would be a five-man Veteran Tactical Squad with an appropriately modelled Vexilla. Thoughts?

 

 

Modelling and Painting:

 

Unit Markings. I don't know of any definite guide to how the Legions marked Squad, Company, Chapter and so on. I'm thinking of having a Company number on the right knee and squad number on the right pad, both Roman numerals. I don't know how I'd mark the Battalion or Chapter, or if I want to at all. The Battalion number could take up quite a lot of space, what with there being 250 of them. 222 would be CCXXII for example, and there's nowhere on a Marine with room for that.

 

Banners. The Ultramarines are obviously inspired by the Roman Legions, and I'd like to borrow from them for banners. In the Roman Legions, each Centuria (company) had a Signum, basically a pole with some discs on it, and a symbol on top. Also, it is not as flashy as a cloth banner, which I think is fitting given the relative position of a Company in the Legion, compared to a 40k Company.

Continuing this theme, the Battalion banner would be a Vexillum, and the Chapter Standard the Aquila. I'd like to incorporate both Forge World's Mk II and Mk III Command Sets in my army, so those could be Battalion and Chapter banners respectively, though the Mk III banner would need an Aquila on the top.

But back on track, do any of you know of anyone who sells appropriately-sized discs for the Signums, or perhaps complete Signum bits? I know Warlord Games has a set of Roman Legion standards, but the detail level aren't high enough, and there's only one kind of Signum in the set.

 

Helmet Crest colours. I will be using crested helmets for all leaders, from squad Sergeants and up. The typical colour is red, but the first picture on Wikipedia's page for Centurions show a reenactor with a red and white striped crest, and a Google search for Centurion helmet shows black crests, and black and white striped crests.

Incorporating those different colours could be a good way of showing rank if every officer has a crest.

I'm going to use pure red for Sergeants, but I'm not sure on the rest. Perhaps black for senior Sergeants and Lieutenants, red and white for Centurions, and black and red for Praetors?

 

 

I believe that's all for now, though I might have more questions in the future. I would really appreciate any thoughts or help you might have.

[blackoption]

As I do have some invested interest in the Ultramarines legion, I'll be happy to share notes.

Organization:

There is a bit of a cannon conflict that between Betrayal and Know No Fear. You hit it right on the head.  I hate to have to wait until the Calth book, but that may be the only option here.  Betrayal states that both the Ultramarines and Iron Warriors did not remove any layers of their organization, only added to it.  However, there is some leeway in the names of each organization (Chapters/Mellenials/Great Companies, ect). Since each company in Know No Fear is 1000 Astartes and are lead by a Senior Captain with Captains serving beneath the senior cpt, My view is the following:  Chapters: 10,000 marines,  Company (a Battalion level): 1000 marines,  Century (Standard Company): 100 Marines
 

Lieutenants. I view LTs as the senior squad leaders in the Centuries.  Table topwise, I'd have them as Vet Tacitical squads, Terminator leaders, or some other legion elite squad leader.
 

Company Command Squads. I agree with your thoughts. Additionally, you can add apothcaries to such squads


Modelling and Painting:

Unit Markings. You could incorporate 2 markings types on the right (squad marking shoulder pad in 40K).  The Squad sign could have a mark or number on it as well as a secondary mark on the forward facing arch, company markings can also be done in color, allowing for three (Squad, Century, Company).  As for the left (chapter marking pad in 40K)....  I believe different chapters would have modified Legion heraldry.  If you look at some of the Ultra successors, many include the Ultramarine Omega as part of their heraldy.  These can be copied or used as inspiration for your own force. 

Banners. Banners can range from company guidons to honor guard colors for BN or higher organizations.  For the UM, I think your idea fit.

 

Helmet Crest colours. Remember, Red did not become the color of leadership until AFTER calth. Prior too, it was a mark of censure (modeled on the Night Lords scarlet gauntlet).  If you are doing a pre calth (or on going calth) not all sgts are going to have red helms.  At Calth, Guilliman ordered strike leaders to have red helms, to the usage for red helms has room for interpretation for a post calth formation of ultramarines.  We know that the centurion style crest (horizontal) has been a terran tradition for rank.  Both the SoH and the Emperor's children have used it for centurion level commanders and higher.  The Praetorian style crest (vertical crest) is used by the Emperor's Children to signify an elite in their formations (specifically, Phoenix Guard members in Power Armor).  In one of the short stories in Mark of Calth, a Word Bearer identifies a white crest on a helmet as the marker of "a first sergeant or some such" (if i may paraphrase).  I distrust the speaker to be completely accurate on his identification, because he is speaking contemputously of the Ultramarines in general.  But a white crest on a Veteran (Elite) Sergeant would be within character of the Ultramarines.

 

My view is that for the Ultramarines,  Centurion level leaders (and above potentially) would have the Centurion crest while the veterans would retain the Praetorian.  Leadership postions can be identified through the colors of the crest. This allows for different leaders to potentially incorporate their respective Chapter or Company heraldry into these crests. In 40k, Sicarius as the Red of leadership and White of terminator honors in his crest. 

 

Granted, this is mostly views based on inteperatation of what details we have, but until the calth book comes out, I believe they are a safe bet. 

[Brother-Librarian Haegl]

First of all: I thoroughly like how much care you put into the Roman military insignia, as it just seems so... fitting. 

 

However: Have you considered downscaling unit assignments? Because if we compare Astartes unit composition with the Roman, I think that we agree that the smallest fighting unit in the organisation would be the squad and the Centuria respectively (ignoring the maniple, which was discarded along with the Plebeian Legion by Marius(would be a demi-squad, though (Manipulae would also  not have their own standard))).

Therefore, I would find it more fitting to let each squad have a Signum, then scaling up to let each company have a Vexillum (not sure which Roman unit it was carried by) and the Chapter, being the Astartes equivalent to a Roman legio, having an Aquila icon (could possibly be substituted for an ornate Ultima). The XIII command iconography is probably just way more ornate, and most surely an Aquila. 

 

  I could also easily see this system conveyed to Army Units, where you could have Optii as romanised commisars.

 

Just my two (enormously over-detailed) cents, though. 

[Marshal Rohr]

You could always expand platoons into Centuries of 100 each led by a Centurion. 8 Centuries per Company. 1 double strength Veteran Century, 6 Line Centuries, and 1 double strength support century.

 

The organization for the Fists is similarly wonky with up to 64 squads. At 10 men that means the company itself is 640 dudes.

[Brother-Librarian Haegl]

@M2C: I see what you did there, with the "Double veteran century"... Though I demand it centurion bear the title of Primus Pilus!

             ...also... where do you take the support company from, historically speaking? An Ala? IMHO that would be assault/mechanised.

 

++ Edit: I meant Cohors, not centuriae.++

[Marshal Rohr]

I double up the support company to keep it 8 Centuries, not from any historical reasoning. The truck is finding where 30k overrides History to make them both work. Support Legionaries are anything except tactical and tactical support legionaries, so having 4 detachments of 50 of each makes sense to me. 50 breachers, 50 assault legionaries, 50 bikers and speeder crews, and 50 heavy support legionaries.

 

 

Although, it might be safe to assume that the Codex Chapter Structure may make an alternate appearance in the UM book. Something like a Hundred Veterans, 4 Battle Companies of 60 Tactical, 20 Despoilers/Breachers, and 20 Tactical Support, 2 Tactical Companies of 70 Tacticals and 30 Tactical Support, an assault company of despoilers/breachers/and jump packs, and two weapons companies.

[Ramell]

Thank you all very much for your replies.

 

As I do have some invested interest in the Ultramarines legion, I'll be happy to share notes.

Organization: I really like your take on it. I'm going to follow that from now on, until at least the Calth book is released.
Lieutenants: Tactical Sergeants it is. Different crest colour to differentiate them, at least.
Command Squads: I hadn't even thought about Apothecaries. Good idea.

Markings: Great idea. I think I'll go with squad number on the right shoulder pad, Centuria number on the left kneepad, and a Legion symbol variant for the company on the left pad.
I think the Second Founding Chapters would have been founded from the companies, so I'd have unique heraldry at the company level. Perhaps the different companies in the a chapter would have had their symbols designed around the chapter's heraldry, making it similar, yet different. Three second Founding chapters have a twelve-point star in their symbol, for example.
But I'm going to have to practice my freehand if I'm going to do something like that, and of course, design the symbol.

Helmet crests: I'd rather keep the horizontal crest for Sergeants. I'll mainly be using Mk II armour (with Mk III for specialists), and they only have horizontal crests, except for one helmet in the Mk II Command Set. And the part that attaches the crest to the helmet is rather small, so I don't want to risk breaking it by turning it for every single sergeant. It's not exactly a cheap part, and fairly limited in availability from bitz sellers.
The helmets in the Mk III Command Upgrade do have vertical crests, but I do not like the design, so I would convert those with crests from Mk II helmets (interestingly, the crested helmets in the Rapier sets are Mk III, but with the Mk II style horizontal crest).

Back on track, what about horizontal crests for leaders (Sergeants, Centurions, so on), and vertical crests for decorated veterans, such as the standard bearer from the Mk II Command Set? It might not be in line with the historical Roman Legions, nor 30k canon, but it's more to my liking.

I have something similar in mind for the colour of the crest; I really like red for sergeants, so I will be using that. I'll use white for senior Sergeants (or Lieutenants) and red and white for Centurions. Like the orientation of the crest, it might not be correct, but it's what I prefer, and I've found that painting/modelling something in a way that you're unhappy with is a good way to get annoyed by the whole project.

 

First of all: I thoroughly like how much care you put into the Roman military insignia, as it just seems so... fitting.

It's not that much detail. Just standards and a few names. It helps that the Astartes Legions, and the Ultramarines, are already inspired by the Roman Legions.

Regarding Signums, I'll be doing one per Century. I think it would be a bit much if every squad had one, especially as I'll only be doing ten-man squads, no twenty-strong blobs.

 

You could always expand platoons into Centuries of 100 each led by a Centurion. 8 Centuries per Company. 1 double strength Veteran Century, 6 Line Centuries, and 1 double strength support century.

The organization for the Fists is similarly wonky with up to 64 squads. At 10 men that means the company itself is 640 dudes.

Like I mentioned above, I'll be following blackoption's idea of ten Centuries to a Company. The First Century would be Veterans (including Terminators), and making it double-strength is a good idea. And it will be led by a Primus Pilus (using the Cataphractii Praetor model). I'm quite fond of the Cataphractii pattern armour, so more of those would be great.

One Century will be a specialist century, made up of Recon and Seeker Squads, one Assault Century, one Weapon Century, and six Line Centuries. I'd also quite like a number of Breachers, but I'm not sure if they should be part of the Specialist Century (three squads of each type), or one or more of the Tactical Centuries (in place of the regular Tactical Squads), or in a Century of their own (with six Breacher squads and three Tactical Support squads with Meltas and Mk III armour). The last option would mean only five line companies.

Vehicles would be Company or Chapter-level assets assigned as needed, except for Spartans and Land Raiders attacked to the First Century Terminator squads. I'll also get some Reaper batteries, and a variety of specialists, such as Techmarines. These will also be at the Company level. I'm not sure how Dreadnoughts would be fielded, but I definitely want to get some Contemptors.
I won't have any Bikes, Attack Bikes, Jetbikes or Land Speeders until Forge World makes variants with Mk II crew.

Of course, all that is assuming I ever get more than a handful of models done, but I like to plan it out before I get started.


Again, thank you all very much for your advice. It's been invaluable, and I am definitely closer to figuring out how I want my force.

Also, I have an additional problem I'd like some advice on.
I've decided to give a Vexilla (the one in the rules, not the banner I mentioned earlier) to every squad that can take it (Tactical, Veteran and Breacher), except of course for the "Command Squad" Veteran Squads, since they'll have Signums instead. I'll be using the model in the Command Upgrade sets, but I'm not quite sure how to paint them. I don't mean the colours, but what to write on the 'parchment' scroll, or in the star symbol. Perhaps Squad number in the star?

[Marshal Rohr]

I suggested breachers with assault units because breachers have been described as an assault formation instead of a tactical one, but really they could be anything. I think the death guard article mentioned each legionary being trained for every piece of equipment.

[Ramell]

My placing Breachers with Tacticals is more about armament (Bolters) than anything else.

True, they lead attacks, but they aren't equipped for hand-to-hand combat. Only the Sergeant can have a melee weapon, whereas even a Legion Tactical Squad can be equipped with chainswords. And they are a lot slower than Assault Squads. 

But I prefer to classify them as a distinct unit, separate from both Tactical and Assault formations. They are also one of the three troop choices that do not have the Support Squad special rule, so they can be fielded on their own, without Tactical or Assault squads. 

 

I'm not sure a Company would have a whole Century dedicated to Breachers, but if it had encountered a lot of boarding actions, for example, I'd think the Captain would have enough authority to form it. 

 

But thank you very much Marshal, I've just made up my mind that my Company will have a Breacher Century. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Never enough Breachers :D

[blackoption]

My placing Breachers with Tacticals is more about armament (Bolters) than anything else.

True, they lead attacks, but they aren't equipped for hand-to-hand combat. Only the Sergeant can have a melee weapon, whereas even a Legion Tactical Squad can be equipped with chainswords. And they are a lot slower than Assault Squads. 

But I prefer to classify them as a distinct unit, separate from both Tactical and Assault formations. They are also one of the three troop choices that do not have the Support Squad special rule, so they can be fielded on their own, without Tactical or Assault squads. 

 

I'm not sure a Company would have a whole Century dedicated to Breachers, but if it had encountered a lot of boarding actions, for example, I'd think the Captain would have enough authority to form it. 

 

But thank you very much Marshal, I've just made up my mind that my Company will have a Breacher Century. 

 

This reminds me of my plans for my legion force. 

 

I am doing an Calth Underground veteran force that is comprised of two different formation/companies: One is a siege formation, the other a recon formation.  My first unit will be a squad of breachers. 

 

In regarding the horizontal crests: While I understand your reasoning, I personally would not have Sergeants with it.  It has been identified as a centuria rank identifier in the SoH example in betrayal and most other sergeants in the legions are marked with a stripe or other identifing mark.  But it can just as easily vary legion from legion and chapter to chapter (as the Imperial Fists Retribution fleet shows). 

 

Still, I look forward to your progress.  Though, this converstation has me wanting to go back and edit/update my legion markings thread which I haven't touched in months.