Rune Priests vs. Wolf Priests

[Squark]

With the FAQ Rune Priests no longer have access to the codex powers, a Rune Priest knows Prescience and 1-2 other powers from divination**, although random dice being random, you can only rely on being able to get one of them off (You want to spend 5 warp charge if you're going to get Prescience off reliably).

 

So, my question is, at this point, should we consider Wolf Priests to be the "stock" HQ? Compare twin-linking one unit's shooting to giving a unit Preferred Enemy, Fearless, Stealth, and Outflank. Which would you say is better,  especially given the Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter is 15 points cheaper than a ML 2 Rune Priest, and has a 4+ invulnerable save?

 

 

 

 

 

*The sentence error in the current errata is such an obvious mistake I can't see anyone believing its intentional. I am aware some people will insist on sticking with strict RAW, though. In this case, being able to cancel blessings and conjurations is important enough the Rune Priest becomes the clear first pick again. This thread is operating under the assumption that the error will soon be corrected.

 

** Biomancy is a niche tactic and requires you to build the list around assault, while Telekenesis yields such varying powers as to be near useless. As for Daemonology... Its passable if you get a WC 1 power. But we don't have the warp charge to toss around for the higher charge powers, and your rune priest is almost certainly going to blow his head up trying to cast a WC 3 power. And most of the powers cost more than 1 warp charge. If you want Sanctic powers, take Grey Knight allies. Hey, Coteaz is ~121 points including troops tax.

[Kasper_Hawser]

When I read the FAQ, I was also thinking of replacing Rune Priest with Wolf Priest as well. Sadly, I still think Rune Priest is needed, if nothing else for Presience. The two working in conjunction would probably make a very solid list: Rune Priests with Long Fangs and other long range support, while Wolf Priest leads the ground troops. Saga of Hunter still rocks as one could potentially outflank a landraider. 

 

In bigger games, Thunderwolf lord is probably needed to take care of the big nasties. No way Wolf Priests can stand up to big nasties since they lack saga of the bear.

[skeletoro]

Don't forget saga of the wolfkin, too. Now that it's as easy as it is to double up a force org, I think fenrisian wolves are looking a tad better (before it monopolized fast attack slots and meant getting a wolf priest when you really wanted a rune priest). That's another point in the wolf priest's favour.

[Squark]

Eh... The force org chart doubling is a can of worms best left unopened. And without it, you have a bit of a dilemna with those three slots, as you want 2 units of both TWC and Fenrisian wolves.

[Karack Blackstone]

Considering the 6th Ed. threads on this comparison, I'd still say that one should base things upon need, rather than just a blanket statement.  Yes, this is likely different than before for me.

 

WP's benefit a bit more from Runic Armor, as they already have a 4++ included base, and the 5+ DtW roll should prove rather useful as well as that 2+ from the RA itself.

 

RP's kind of need RA to have a real chance; I know that an invul save is great, but sometimes TDA won't fit into some transports so well.

 

I think BC's benefit more from WP's, and in the past, RP's aided GH's more with Prescience; if that remains the same, then what pack one puts the HQ with should start to dictate what one takes in the HQ department.  LF's I'm not usually sticking HQ's or WGPL's with, as 5 HW + LFPL seems to fill a Razorback quite well, and to capacity.

 

What's the consensus here on this overall?  WP's do grant rerolls on all 1's through preferred enemy, including shooting, so, this can work rather well depending upon things.

 

8 GH, WGPL, RP is how my GH packs are currently set up, without upgrades listed.  I'm wondering what might need to change on this overall...

[Kasper_Hawser]

Before stating my opinion, I've only played 5 games since February 2014, only won once. So I'm stating my opinion based on noob experience.

 

I think whereas before it was a no brainer to field as many rune priests as we could, now the nerf will force/encourage us to mix up our lists and not forever put our other HQs on the sidelines. I think Wolf Priest will be awesome in either Blood Claws or GH. 

 

Again, in regards to assaulty rune priests, I think it is dooable on with Biomancy. While we can't rely on getting it consistently, a Rune Priest with Iron arm could potentially become a CC monster which is actually viable against most MCs who have only 3+ armour at most. Getting FNP for rest of squad is still very good and provides an extra level of protection for the potential wulfen or power fist/axe/sword Grey Hunter. The thing is that until yesterday's FAQ, very few of us were thinking of this combination due to Jaws and Living Lightning being so useful.

 

In a sense, Jaws and LL did handicap our collective strategic cunning. Now we just have to figure out other strategies which were already there since 6th ed but we were blinded by the awesomness of Jaws and LL until we couldn't see it.

 

Long story cut short, Rune Priest AND Wolf Priest is still awesome and could potentially even counter MC, FMC and daemon spam. What it cannot counter however, is the massed firepower of Tau and Eldar which I still think we have little counter too. Again, maybe I'm not seeing the silver lining which may have been there all along.

 

Thoughts guys?

[Oz of the North]

Hate to use generalizations, Rune Priest could be used in different cases, but now with the complete nerf to rune priests, losing about everything that makes them good. I would say take either a wolf priest to get preferred enemy, or for much less cost take a inq. because they are now battle brothers, even if you take from the gk codex, and if you take the psyker henchmen then that is just more dice to your warp charge pool.

[Nrthstar]

I like the WP idea, but I still feel I need RP.  I play at least one squad of 2xLC 3xML + WGTDA CML and they need the divination.  Plus you'll need those deny helpers.  I won my game against Marn (? the SM special psycher) in 7th on Tuesday thanks to deny rolls on 5+.

 

However, I did feel it a waste to have two RPs, the second with my 36" squad of LF (2x PC, 3x HB) as my second priest was useless and redundant.  Honestly I think i'll be sticking to 1 RP (Njal mostly thanks to the deny boost and his special powers, luck based, but still a boost).

 

My extra points will be used on a Thunderlord or a WP.  The WP for my spearhead armies that'll keep nice and tight and slowly punch up the middle, Thunderlord for drop pods/outflank armies.  The WP is definitely my new choice for a cheaper assault HQ though for low point games where I don't think I'll be taking too many deathstars to the face.

[viddar]

I think wolf priests will see a boost in popularity with rune priests getting worse, pods getting better, and saga of the hunter being such a good ability. That said I don't think we'll have a go to HQ anymore. Rune priests were way to good before and they were no brainer which lead to a lot of lists running 3. Now I think Lords, and both types of priests are on more even footing, each bring some advantages.

 

I think rune priests will still see play because having a psycher does help against armies that rely on them. In addition chooser of the slain is really good in tactical missions. Units that can infiltrate allow players to go after objectives that they normally couldn't reach with a unit that typically can affect the battle from their new position (dropping a pod on one is nice but its tough to the most out of the unit as well). So having some control over where they can infiltrate is a big deal.

 

I also really like telekinesis for a level 2 rune priest as well. Assail is a really good primaris now that beams don't lose strength as hits are resolved and strikedown is really good. It also has the side benefit of feeling like one of our old powers. It does lead to a more witch fire focused psycher but I think people are underestimating it . 

 

 

[skeletoro]

One thing about saga of the hunter is that if you take strategic for your warlord in a battle forged army, you have a 11/36 chance of getting infiltrate (which includes outflank) for the warlord and 3 other units. There's some overlap there. I have a similar dilemma in my redmaw army. It's hard to build an army out of a 11/36 chance though.

[Squark]

One of the personal traits is outflank as well... Which is kind of inferior to that one in strategic, come to the think of it.

[skeletoro]

yeah, the strategic one gives a downright better USR to four times as many units.

[Baulder]

Probably a stupid question but can a GH unit with infiltrate (from master of ambush) do so with their rhinos? The infiltrate rule suggest you can but master of ambush states non-vehicle units.

[skeletoro]

I wondered the same thing.

[Squark]

Hrmm... More a question for the general rules board, but...

 

Assuming I understand correctly (and be aware I don't have the 7th ed rulebook yet, so I could be wrong), you're giving the infiltrate USR to the grey hunters, who then confer it to their dedicated transport. I think it should work, but again, look at your rulebook before trying that.

[skeletoro]

I am pretty sure it normally works fine, with dedicated transports.

 

The only potential hiccup is:

 

master of ambush

Your warlord and three non-vehicle units of your choice have the infiltrate special rule

Now, I *think* a grey hunter unit that deploys in a dedicated rhino is *itself* a non-vehicle unit. So it gets the infiltrate USR. And is then free to deploy in its dedicated transport; itself a separate unit, using the infiltrate special rules.

[Kasper_Hawser]

This question was already answered in http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282164-wolf-priest-with-saga-of-the-hunter/ Short answer is yes. 

[skeletoro]

slightly different question, though related. There are two additional issues here:

 

1. The BRB master of ambush trait only conveys infiltrate to 'non-vehicle units'. RAW, I don't think this affects dedicated transports anyway - they don't need to actually have the infiltrate USR - it is enough for the passenger unit to have it, and technically the passenger unit itself IS a non-vehicle unit. RAI, I am unsure. I wouldn't be surprised to see an errata correcting the wording to disallow dedicated transports to infiltrate using this rule. But that kind of thing is hard to predict.

 

2. ICs with outflank can definitely bring a unit with them. There are some rules technicalities that some would argue make it problematic for ICs with infiltrate. Although they could infiltrate with a unit they've joined that themselves lack infiltrate, technically that unit isn't joined until it deploys... but of course it cannot deploy that way until it has access to the USR(!)It's a bit of a chicken or egg problem in a way. If ICs joined units as a distinct step immediately before deployment (rather than when deploying )then the problem would be solved.

 

My personal opinion is that 1. RAI allows infiltrating ICs to pass the rule on (clearly shrike is supposed to?!) so who gives a damn and 2. It's only a problem if you treat the rules as being causal in nature, rather than mere logical restrictions on deployment. If the rules are causal, then cause must precede effect temporally. Because the joined unit doesn't benefit from infiltrate until the moment after it is joined, it cannot infiltrate, and cannot therefore be joined. HOWEVER, if you treat the wording as mere logical restrictions, the problem seems to go away. There's no cause and effect, just reasons, and a unit can be deployed with an IC that grants them the ability to do so. In essence, the joining, deployment, and inheritance of ability to infiltrate all happen simultaneously - at no point are the logical requirements on infiltration violated.

[JCarter]

Re the rules for ICs conferring infiltrate on a unit, the rules are clear (and unchanged from 6ed). The IC can join a unit by being deployed within 2" of the unit. The unit can not be deployed as infiltrators until the IC has joined and there is no way to combine the IC and the unit before the required infiltration deployment. The mechanics and timing of infiltration and other deployments prohibit this. The IC, however can join a unit in reserve, thus conferring the infiltrate rule and allowing outflanking (but not infiltration).

[skeletoro]

you're treating the rule as a causal process rather than a condition that needs to be satisfied.