[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[ddarz]

Hello brothers,

 

I wanted to have your opinion on 2 things regarding battles in the Horus Heresy

 

1) Do you feel it is more effective to have multiple types of support units, or to make one strong theme. Example, I both like the Lernaean Terminators as well as the Seekers/Headhunters, but I feel that splitting the forces into two different types of support will make it less coherent and effective on the battlefield. I wanted to have your more experienced take on that.

 

2) Seeker Squads, how do you usually run them ? With Alpha Legion Tactics, I was thinking 9 + Vigilator in a Rhino with combis, so that they're able to Infiltrate/Scout/Move/Do Whatever. In terms of combis, Plasmas seem very awesome against infantry (BS5 + PE means most will hit, wounding on 2+ + Pe means that most will wound), but I was curious about a nasty anti-tank unit with meltas. wouldn't it be overkill to throw 10 meltas at tanks ? I'm more used in a 40k meta with many Rhinos.

 

EDIT : And because I always add a 3rd thing :

 

3) Combi-bolters on the Headhunters. They seem only very good for rerolling overwatch shots, because otherwise they're redundant with the PE of the squad. For 5 points, them seemed interesting, but are they worth it ? The short range of Banestrike rounds looked like countercharges might be a problem, but what is your experience on that ?

Hi GreyCrow, good to see you with the Hydras! Might I recommend you join us also over on FB at 'We are Alpharius'? Some good discussions to be had:)

 

Now as for your questions:

1)I've had a lot more success with seekers/headhunters than Lernaeans, but that's probably due to how I play them. The former very-very aggressively, and the latter as a second punch or defensive line, that actually rarely got into combat... 2 squads of seekers moving forward and going for different high-value targets with plasma makes my Dark Angel/Blood Angel opponent sweat. With combi-plasmas and Alpharius they make things dissappear, and if they don't get charged they can even survive for a bit afterwards and delay their advance.

 

No about your next two questions, it kinda depends on how you play headhunters.

Personally, I believe that headhunters are meant to have access to combi-weapons. I have emailed FW myself and they said that is the case. And everyone who has ever asked has gotten that response. Even in person at weekenders. Have a look at the discussions at 'We are Alpharius'

 

And it makes sense. Why should an improved version of the seekers have fewer options than their archetype unit, (seekers), that make them clearly inferior? Also combi-bolters make little sense on a unit with BS5 and PE(infantry) especially when that can become PE(everything) with the big A. They already pay a price by losing special ammo, and they are tremendously expensive on top of that. 

 

So bottom line: If you play them with combi-weapons, they are better than Seekers as a mid/close range Alpha Strike that punches way above its weight and makes something important evaporate. They they fall back to banestrike and make dents in MEQ's who are wary of charging them due to the AP3 daggers.

If you play them without combi's....then they don't really work. They can't take on 2+ armor, they can't hurt vehicles, ad banestrike is really not as impressive as it sounds. As said above, vets with sniper do this better. And seekers are way better. Especially with Alpharius on board. So your are paying a massive premium for not much.

 

It gets a bit better without Alpharius, as they have more rules, but still not really worth it. If banestrike was ap3 on a 5+, or poisoned 2+, or had better range, then maybe...

It's a shame, because the are by far my favourite unit fluffwise, tied with Mor Deythan, which as a Raptors player in 40K I kinda dig. Same goes for Exodus, who appears fantastic, and I always include him, but he fails miserably every.single.time. But that is a whole different discussion.

Sorry for long post

Very keen to hear thoughts

 

[GreyCrow]

Hey ddarz ! Thanks for your answer ;)

 

Regarding the Headhunters, I mainly planned to play them as anti-small infantry killers, aiming to kill off the Legion Vexillas, Sergeants, Apothecaries with Exodus, by drowning them under a large amount of semi-rending bolter shots with Precision Strikes and Precision Shots.

I don't think they were ever meant to have combis (otherwise they'd be too close to the Seekers), but actually meant to throw a large amount of anti-infantry shots in Rapid Fire. This is why I ask about the combi-bolter : because they'll be at 9" range in Rapid Fire, counter charges are going to be a likely proposition. I agree that in the shooting phase, comni-bolters are useless, but in the enemy Assault phase, it might help out by allowing all rerolls on Overwatch rather than just results of 1s.

 

For hunting 2+ or vehicles, then yeah, the Seekers are much more interesting :)

[ddarz]

Hey ddarz ! Thanks for your answer

 

Regarding the Headhunters, I mainly planned to play them as anti-small infantry killers, aiming to kill off the Legion Vexillas, Sergeants, Apothecaries with Exodus, by drowning them under a large amount of semi-rending bolter shots with Precision Strikes and Precision Shots.

I don't think they were ever meant to have combis (otherwise they'd be too close to the Seekers), but actually meant to throw a large amount of anti-infantry shots in Rapid Fire. This is why I ask about the combi-bolter : because they'll be at 9" range in Rapid Fire, counter charges are going to be a likely proposition. I agree that in the shooting phase, comni-bolters are useless, but in the enemy Assault phase, it might help out by allowing all rerolls on Overwatch rather than just results of 1s.

 

For hunting 2+ or vehicles, then yeah, the Seekers are much more interesting

Hmm, good point about overwatch, hadn't thout about it that way, but still, with all the killy stuff around, an almost 30 point marine without serious teeth isn't going to cut it

Spending 300+ points for a single volley of maybe-AP3 and then submitting to a charge doesn't sound great

But I must also admit that I don't like the looks of combi-bolters  and play against assault armies that love turn 1 assaults on infiltrated units.

The headhunters just don't feel killy enough... :(

Also putting Exodus in with them gives them Scout, but negates a lot of his weaponry no?

Maybe upping the range of banestrike to 24" or even 30" could make their role as 'assassins' a bit clearer?

or maybe I am missing the point and they are meant to be up close and mixing it up

But then they can't rapid fire and charge...so maybe a more realistic fix would be relentless or hit&run.. or both

rapid fire, assault, breakaway....sounds fluffy

 

I apologise for the wishful thinking and half-thoughts but I am away from my books and notes so I am working from memory

[GreyCrow]

No worries man ! ;)

 

Well, Exodus can only join Headhunter Kill Teams or Recon Squads, so I'm thinking that either you build him purely as a Sniper in a Sniper Recon Squad, either you build him as a mid/close range unit with Headhunters, due to similar rules and gear (rending weapons, power daggers).

 

They're complicated to analyse because they're flexible. But they don't have a super interesting firepower and rules that trigger on 6s, so the trick is to maximize the number of dice the unit throws.

They've also got a pretty interesting kit for melee, with Power Daggers and Venom Spheres that give Hammer of Wrath. So I kind of feel that the idea behind them is to infiltrate them super upclose, Scout them up with a Vigilator or Exodus, move them into range (Exodus can hang back and get Salvo, because Scout is a pre-game redeployment, not a movement ;) ), completely cripple a squad by killing off their Vexillas and attached characters that don't have a 2+ save (or leave that to Exodus). Then, either not get charged then charge, or either get charged and have the maximum potential killing power with combi bolters.

Regarding the combi-bolters, yeah, it's more to be a further deterrent for the charge. It's interesting that you look at them on a Points per Model Basis, rather than at a points per unit basis :p At full size, it's a measly 50 points investment, which is only about 1% of the points total at a 3000 points game ^^

[TemujinZero]

I hate to be a particularly downbeat broken record, but all of that stuff about sniping out vexillas and characters with Exodus is a plan that doesn't survive contact with maths. If you think Exodus sounds cool then do yourself a favour and never take him so that you can maintain that pleasant illusion.

[ddarz]

Aye he really needs a fix or buff.

So far his best use is psychological. Unfamiliar opponents think he is a mini vindicate and either overkill him or avoid his 36 inch radius bubble.

Little do they know he ain't up to much

[WolfOfHorus]

He should be buffed as soon as they nerf their Legion rules lol.

 

Don't bother with Recon Squads, just proxy them as Veterans with Sniper.

[GreyCrow]

I hate to be a particularly downbeat broken record, but all of that stuff about sniping out vexillas and characters with Exodus is a plan that doesn't survive contact with maths. If you think Exodus sounds cool then do yourself a favour and never take him so that you can maintain that pleasant illusion.

 

Oh yeah, alone Exodus won't really do the trick for sure :) I've since long lost the ope of 115ish points characters changing the course of the battle in a reliable way :p

 

However, within a full Headhunter squad with combi-bolters or a ful Recon squad with Snipers, I feel that he brings some measure of coolness and added punch :)

Besides, at 3k points, he's only 3% of the total, much like Sergeant Telion, hehe.

[Balthamal]

Is that an official line on the Headhunters? Given that I'm currently playing around with lists featuring either those or Lernaeans (both of which appeal to me)

[ddarz]

Well, almost everyone who asked FW was told that combi-weapons are a go. I too have got an email saying so .

However, I actually don't run them as such as I feel uncomfortable without an official FAQ to back it up.

 

Usual answer: depends on your group :/

[Balthamal]

My group are fairly relaxed since I'm 1 of about 4 who run HH armies and play regular games against 40k armies so should be fine. Were any points mentioned? PM if so, don't want to be breaching the forum rules

[TemujinZero]

The FW reply that someone posted on Heresy 30K said combi-bolters = combi-weapons. That was one of the first responses that marked the transition from the awesome replies we used to get (just asked Alan Bligh and he said to play it like this...) to the current situation where we get a standardised reply with lots of very dubious calls. In this case others might have got more authoritive responses from other avenues, but the days when we could rely on e-mails to FW are over. You'll just have to come to an agreement with your group. 5 points seems a bit low.

[Slips]

Combi weapons are generally 10pts for non TDA or IC units/models who can take then such as seekers and tac sarges.

[Terminus]

10 points would be fair considering that's what Veterans and Seekers pay (and you're talking BS5 Preferred Enemy models here).  However, that kind of dispels the whole theory that it was a typo, since they wouldn't have gotten both the weapon and the points wrong. Basically at this point it becomes a pure house-rule.

[xera32]

10p is the norm for combi weapons, but headhunters are paying 10p more than seekers per body. And Mor Deythan (I think they are seeker vet hybrids?) pay 7p per combi weapon.

A full squad loaded with combi weapon of seekers is equal to a full combi headhunters, with the seekers getting a PE that can be potentially more useful, and the backup ammo for their bolters so they have flexibility. whereas the headhunters get AP3 rending CC, HoW, and a PE that will be able to target more than 1 unit.
 

If HH could take combi weapons, I would say that they slightly edge infront of seekers, but I wouldn't take more than 1 squad, with any extra seeker/HH squads being seekers. Without combi weapons I would rather take seekers for the melta and plasma and extra range.

Edited September 30, 2015 by xera32

[TemujinZero]

I'd say that rather than writing rules for ourselves we just wait for Forge World to put something into print and work with what we have in the meantime. Headhunters are not a great unit but they are just about workable, unlike the useless messes that some legions got saddled with. Take Seekers if you absolutely must have combi-weapons. Take sniper vets. And if Forge World finally get round to fixing this relatively minor oversight and finally give us some actual units to buy then we'll have yet more options open to us. Until then we'll manage just fine with what we have.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, I really feel that they didn't intend combi-weapons for the Headhunters either !

 

A quick question, I'm really planning on going MSU with transports with my Horus Heresy army, rather than field large squads.

 

But, a question remains for me. I really like Terminators (because I feel that Cataphractii makes them workable !), but regarding the transport options the Spartan seems like a better bang for the buck than the Land Raider. For 45 extra points, you get one extra hull point, better weapons.

Is the Land Raider worth it ?

 

Also, if I'm planning to play MSU with transports, would you recommend POTL over no Rites of War so I can fit Veterans as Troops ? (I'll definitely have power armoured bodies as the main Troops).

After all, at 10 strong with a transport, Veterans are only 50 more expensive (without any equipment) than Tactical Squads. So, 5 points extra per man for free access to a special rule of the choice, it seems like a decent bargain, wouldn't you say ?

[Terminus]

Why not just use the 40K book if you want transport-based MSU?

 

10p is the norm for combi weapons, but headhunters are paying 10p more than seekers per body. And Mor Deythan (I think they are seeker vet hybrids?) pay 7p per combi weapon.

A full squad loaded with combi weapon of seekers is equal to a full combi headhunters, with the seekers getting a PE that can be potentially more useful, and the backup ammo for their bolters so they have flexibility. whereas the headhunters get AP3 rending CC, HoW, and a PE that will be able to target more than 1 unit.
 

If HH could take combi weapons, I would say that they slightly edge infront of seekers, but I wouldn't take more than 1 squad, with any extra seeker/HH squads being seekers. Without combi weapons I would rather take seekers for the melta and plasma and extra range.

Headhunters are weird, in that the base unit basically pays nothing for the extra gear. They swap special ammo for banestrike rounds, power daggers and HoW grenades, and then get Infiltrate on top. Don't get me wrong, I am all for making Headhunters as good as Mor Deythan, or even regular Seekers (especially with Alpharius around), but it is what it is.

[GreyCrow]

Why not just use the 40K book if you want transport-based MSU?

 

Because it's a different scale ? :p Transport based MSU is 5 men squads in 40k, MSU in 30k is 10 men strong. I return the question : why play Alpha Legion is you want to blob ? :p The awesome stuff about the Crusade Army List is that it really allows very different ways to play the Legion through the Rites of War and each represent a specific facet of war from the Legion in question.

Besides, when Infiltrating/Scouting, from experience, you're much more efficient with units that have a small footprint over blobs ^^

 

But you've definitely answered my question, I'll go POTL with 10 men Veteran Squads in Rhinos ;)

 

____

 

By the way, I'm really loving your analysis on the Headhunters ! I never quite caught that they were actually exactly the points cost of the Seekers and that's a very good catch indeed.

So yeah, rather than looking at the Headhunters as better Seekers, they're more like a different types of Seekers, where rather than applyiing overwhelming power on one particular squad (and getting geared to do this perfectly well), they are geared to take on "outstanding" Marines in regular squads. Sergeants, Vexillas, any kind of support Marine within each unit. Obviously, for 2+ killing duty, the Seekers are a better bargain !

One key difference is the fact that Seekers can hit characters in multiple squads, while the Seekers focus on absolutely ensuring one squad dies ^^

 

Another is the fact that they don't need a dedicated transport to be in the ROW. It's still worth it even if it's only 35 points :p

[Hesh Kadesh]

Consider this for a ZM unit;

 

Forgelord, Infiltrate Tactics (we'll ignore that RAW mess up, because FW don't know what they're doing), Power Axe, Rad Grenades, Meltabombs, Combat shield, cyber familiar, cortex controller = 150pts

 

5 Headhunters, Powerfist, Meltabomb, Inferno Pistol = 210pts

 

360pts

 

It's a unit which can go anywhere it needs, and has a BS5 preferred enemy reaction fire with Rad Grenades. Its majority Initiative is 4, and is effectively S5 because Rad grenade kick in the moment the charge is issued, with a Preferred Enemy. Roll a 4 or lower, and with 10 shots hitting on 2's, rerolling failed, and wounding on a 3+ (2+ vs squishy humans), with a reroll of 1's, and any 6's nixing 3+ Saves or better, which when they get in CC, have to go up against 8 3+ with reroll attacks, wounding on 4's with a reroll of 1's, ignoring 3+ saves and a potential lucky rend, followed by a Preferred Enemy WS5 S6~ Axe and a Preferred Enemy Power Fist.

 

On the assault they also have Hammer of Wrath because reasons.

 

You can also take a unit of Infiltrating Castellax in ZM, because why not?

 

Admittedly, 350 pts gets you 10 Seekers with Combi-weapons, so it's a moot point, but you don't get the CC ability, while 210pts is enough for 6 Seekers with Combi-Weapons, which may be more shooting happy.

[v6v77]

Consider this for a ZM unit;

 

Forgelord, Infiltrate Tactics (we'll ignore that RAW mess up, because FW don't know what they're doing), Power Axe, Rad Grenades, Meltabombs, Combat shield, cyber familiar, cortex controller = 150pts

 

5 Headhunters, Powerfist, Meltabomb, Inferno Pistol = 210pts

 

360pts

 

It's a unit which can go anywhere it needs, and has a BS5 preferred enemy reaction fire with Rad Grenades. Its majority Initiative is 4, and is effectively S5 because Rad grenade kick in the moment the charge is issued, with a Preferred Enemy. Roll a 4 or lower, and with 10 shots hitting on 2's, rerolling failed, and wounding on a 3+ (2+ vs squishy humans), with a reroll of 1's, and any 6's nixing 3+ Saves or better, which when they get in CC, have to go up against 8 3+ with reroll attacks, wounding on 4's with a reroll of 1's, ignoring 3+ saves and a potential lucky rend, followed by a Preferred Enemy WS5 S6~ Axe and a Preferred Enemy Power Fist.

 

On the assault they also have Hammer of Wrath because reasons.

 

You can also take a unit of Infiltrating Castellax in ZM, because why not?

 

Admittedly, 350 pts gets you 10 Seekers with Combi-weapons, so it's a moot point, but you don't get the CC ability, while 210pts is enough for 6 Seekers with Combi-Weapons, which may be more shooting happy.

Could you clarify what you meant with the infiltrate tactics RAW issue... Must have missed that in the dozens of previous pages. Feel like ive missed something major now and have been playing all wrong.

[GreyCrow]

Has anyone played with a Pride of the Legion Alpha Legion list ? How did you go for it ? I'm really feeling the potential between Mutable Tactics and Veteran Tactics :D

[ddarz]

Has anyone played with a Pride of the Legion Alpha Legion list ? How did you go for it ? I'm really feeling the potential between Mutable Tactics and Veteran Tactics

The pride is my Go-To rite for 30K vs 40K, works well as the the vet squads can be built similar to 40K tac squads but are miles better.

PotL basically lets you bring some cool stuff for not a lot of points, great for smaller games.

 

It's been a while since I played (busy with work) but last time I ran it was with:

Praetor, Exodus, LC terminators, 2 vets, 2 seekers, Kheres mortis Contemptor, Fire Raptor and Melta-Bomb and shotgun equipped Recons charging out of a Storm Eagle. Oh and of course plasma and volkite tactical support squads:D Not a single ground vehicle in the list so infiltrate helps

 

Vets snipe and maneuver, Termi's are the hammer. Tac supports are the anvil (and hammer). Seekers are the scalpel. Recons are the suprise AT. Mortis is indomitable. Storm Eagle makes its points. Fire Raptor empties the table left, right and center. Exodus picked off various specials

 

 

However, are you familiar with the newer rite for smaller games added by Autillon Skorr and the Legion Delegatus? Almost the same thing minus termis if I recall right...

 

As for the previous discussions on the Headhunters...yeah I will keep playing them without combi-weapons until an FAQ says otherwise. Still, I'd like a buff/change to them and exodus, just for clarity of purpose you know... As said before, Relentless to charge after rapid fire... Hit&run to leg it.... Fluffy yes, OP most probably yes.

[GreyCrow]

Very interesting points ddarz !

 

The idea I had with Veterans is that their special rules somehow replace the need for units such as Seekers and Headhunters. I did try to churn a list and they felt redundant with the Veterans in. Example : Veterans with Sniper and 2 Heavy Bolters kind of fill a similar role to the Seekers, but with less punch. So, while it's good to have Seekers, you need less than 10 in a Legion where you play Tactical Squads, because you can have several Veteran Squads that provide a similar support :)

So, more points for Terminators and other units ^^

 

I do feel that Pride of the Legion needs some kind of very strong melee punch though. Because the lack of Fury of the Legion means that the list will need means to wipe out units swiftly.

[ddarz]

Good point! Gonna have to look at them a bit differently now.
However I think I will miss special ammo and BS5...I wish sternguard had that

I had a bunch of dual LC termies and a Praetor. Not terribly efficient but I have 5 termies converted with from this guy (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Tyberos-The-Red-Wake)

So they need some table time. They did pretty good, mowed through 3 full squads of boyz once before giving up

An AL praetor actually gets pretty good due to the power dagger which combines with the paragon blade for an extra ap2 attack at initiative. 

Oh, something I forgot from the list above. A moritat with 2 volkite pistols. He did good. One day he will run with The Drakaina.