[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[ddarz]

I sent Forgeworld an email asking about combi-weapons on Headhunter Kill Teams. I'll update the thread when they answer

 

Aha! My personal pet-peeve! please allow me to jump in again

 

Now, I believe that combi-bolters are indeed allowed, and here is my evidence so far:

• My email to forge world: They replied, that yes, combi weapons are what was meant.
• A community member asked Andy Hoare, who said it was a typo and combi-weapons was indeed the correct version.
• Combi-bolters on a BS5 model with preferred enemy? Why? Your earlier explanation about overwatch makes a case, but still, way too expensive for just that.
• Headhunters are an upgrade of seekers, who get combi-bolters. We pay more for each model, gain quite a bit of stuff, but lose special ammo. Fair enough, but without the combi-weapon firepower, the headhunters are actually quite lackluster. AP3 on sixes ain't much, especially at less than 18 inches
• Someone pointed out that it is unlikely that they get combi's at 5pts each as it is universally 10pts for a combis for everyone. To this I point out an actually effective unit, the Mor Deythan who get them for a strange 7 pts each.
• Rule of Cool ;) Double barrel spray and pray bolters on what sounds like a bunch of sneaky operative? nah

 

I look forward to seeing what answer you get :)

Btw, I am Nottingham based, I could just try grabbing Alan Bligh next time I see him walk past. He plays Alpha Legion too!

I've discussed it with the guys in the shop who agree, but we also all agree that while there is no FAQ to say otherwise, it's best to talk it over with your opponent.

 

If you would pardon the wishlisting. Would it not be great if the had relentless and/or hit and run? I know I have said it before, but rapid firing and charging with daggers to then break away sounds like what these guys should be doing. They are way to shortranged for anything else. As it stands, they lack direction and indentity

[GreyCrow]

I'm not doubting your confirmation, but if you could find and post that e-mail here (screen capture or anything), it would be very good :) This is actually a change that I'm looking forward to, but having a proper, written confirmation is the only way to make it legit.

 

I do agree with your logic for the RAI part, but as it currently stands it's not subject to interpretation. It clearly says combi-bolters instead of combi-weapon and most gaming groups won't really think beyond that ;)

 

But, really, if you could post your FW e-mail it would go a long way. I will post mine as soon as I get it (probably tomorrow, they are usually quick with inquiries like this), and having 2 written confirmations will be good.

Or if you can get a written bit fro Alan Bligh himself, then I guess it would remove any doubts.

[ddarz]

Sure thing, here you go!

 

 

Now I admit the email response seems a bit off hand. It's from the period earlier in the year where all the emails seemed to be answered by some intern whow as having fun as saying the same thing to everyone. Also his statement that ""combie bolter" is a casual term for all variants of "combi-weapons" so yes, you may ugrade to specialist combie flamer, plasma, melta etc..." really weakens the argument in my eyes. :(

  

However, many members of the Heresy and Alpha leguion FB groups, the Heresy 30K forum, and on the forum here, have also asked this question and got much more serious responses. And they were all positive.

 

This is also the reason why I am eager to hear the response you get!

[Terminus]

I guess that's technically true, I remember reading fluff that used 'combi-bolter' as a generic and non-specific form, and if I can dig out my 2nd edition wargear book, I think they were all combi-bolters back then.

[ddarz]

Aye, the term 'Combi-Bolter' was only introduced in 30K. Has it's own little entry and everything in the Red Book. If I recall right

[GreyCrow]

I've got the email by Forgeworld and it might disappoint some :)

 

Hi,
Thank you for your email. When we released the Red Gamers edition books, these updates and clarified some of the rules from the earlier black Horus Heresy Books. So now the Headhunter Kill Team entry is - 

Any model in the Kill team may upgrade their Boltgun with Banestrike ammunition to a Combi-Bolter with Banestrike ammunition for +5 points

You need to just look at the Kill Team entry as an alpha Legion specific unit, with the weapons and options listed in only their unit entry, which is different from other Legion Seeker Teams.


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[Hesh Kadesh]

:cussing moron interns.

 

BS5 Combi-Bolters have Rerolls to hit. 

BS5 Preferred Enemy gives rerolls to hit against infantry. So you're paying 5pts for the off chance that you might get need a reroll to hit against Bikers, Jetbikers, Monstrous Infantry, etc etc.

[ddarz]

:cussing moron interns.

 

BS5 Combi-Bolters have Rerolls to hit. 

BS5 Preferred Enemy gives rerolls to hit against infantry. So you're paying 5pts for the off chance that you might get need a reroll to hit against Bikers, Jetbikers, Monstrous Infantry, etc etc.

 

Very true

However, Headhunters are definitely not the best equipped to go up against T5 and above. We barely would MEQ on a +4 with just AP3 on the 6s.

If it was true Rending, then sure, I would try going for some high toughness baddies. 

Not to mention that jet bikes and MC's will have 2+ armour anyway.

 

Additionally, if Alpharius is around, the PE(infantry) becomes PE(Everything), further diminishing their value.

Alpharius and combi-plasma seekers are murder

[Hesh Kadesh]

Exactly my point. There is no point whatsoever in taking Combi-Bolters. There aren't even MODELS for Power Armoured Combi-Bolters. 

[GreyCrow]

Got to love how 2 different e-mails get 2 different responses on the same topic :D

[ddarz]

Aye, well, I guess that clinches that.

More wishful thinking but maybe they will cure 'old book syndrome' at some point

[GreyCrow]

Well, maybe it's an intended variation compared to the Seekers. The Seekers are there for maximum Alpha Strike with Combis and Preferred enemy on some specific unit, while the Headhunters are more there to provide disruption on multiple units due to having Infantry in general as their preferred enemy.

 

Imagine the following scenario with Seekers :

1) Have a Vigilator with them and equip them all with combi-Bolters (remembering they have power daggers)

2) Infilrate then Scout the Seekers (regardless of which mutable tactics you've chosen) in order to move within 9" of your chosen prey.

3) Unload X amounts of shots with Precision Shots and Banestrike, and perhaps pick off the Vexilla, the Vox or even the Sergeant.

4a) Now, another of your units can help finish it off with better efficiency.

4b) You were planning on operating alone, and now you get charged, allowing to reroll the overwatch as well as get 2 attacks per guy that are S3 AP3 Rending (so each wound you make has 50% chance of being AP2), not including how 20 rerolling overwatch shot (assuming you're at 10 men strong still) with banestrike can damage.

5) You made sure to survive, then proceed to the next unit.

 

On the other hand, Seekers want to operate at longer range, due to not having melee weapons at all, but perform better against other unit types.

[Terminus]

There is really no point to the combi-bolters at all, re-rolling to hit 1s at BS5 is the same as re-rolling all misses. Stormbolters would have at least given you two shots on an assault weapon and at > 12" range (granted stormbolters don't exist yet, but who is to say Alphas wouldn't invent them?). Being able to take a bunch of combi-plasmas would have let them really utilize the BS5 and preferred enemy for a withering turn of fire  (basically each shot would be a guaranteed hit and against most infantry targets a guaranteed wound with only cover/invulnerable saves standing in your way). It would make their money shot turn more deadly than the Mor Deythan flamer splooge (also considering flamer templates are shorter and more difficult to deploy the larger the unit becomes).

 

As is, BS5 and Banestrike ammunition (on bolters only) on its own isn't enough to make them a solid shooting unit. It's better to think of their shooting ability as a secondary bonus. It's a shame they can't be taken as troops in Coils of the Hydra, 5-man squads with heavy bolters infiltrating to camp objectives (kinda like sniper vets in PoTL) would be a nice use of them at ~200 points per unit. 

 

They all have power daggers and HoW grenades, and have the option of a dedicated assault vehicle, all of which suggests the unit is meant to go into melee. Of course, having one base attack at WS4 S3 AP3 doesn't make them a solid melee unit either (although Prime can upgrade to 3 base powerfist attacks for only 15 points), but at least a small unit can provide some assist to a melee IC by giving them preferred enemy and a ride. Hesh lumping them with the Harrowmaster in a drop pod list is probably about as good a use as you can get out of them.

[Hesh Kadesh]

You reroll all misses, and reroll 1's to wound with Preferred Enemy. I know that doesn't change your point any, but worth bearing in mind. They might also be S3, but as they're preferred enemy, it's still wounding on a 5, rerolling a 1, and grants Preferred Enemy to Dynat's Phosphex Bomb.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Caillum]

Hesh lumping them with the Harrowmaster in a drop pod list is probably about as good a use as you can get out of them.

Yeah, this is the bomb. I'd try to find points for a Forge Lord with rad grenades to add to this unit too, giving them "power swords" across the board, and +1 to Wound with their HoW.

[TemujinZero]

It's a 5 point upgrade to re-roll 2-5s when snap shotting. It sucks, but that's what it is. Either that or we follow the FW intern's email and terminators have a 7 point upgrade to exchange combi-weapons for combi-weapons. FW emails no longer have any credibility whatsoever.

[ddarz]

Well I trawled the 'we are alpharius' fb group, the heresy 30k page and the earlier pages of this very thread.

Lots of discussion on this. Many people just go ahead and take combi weapons.

General feeling of headhunters being inferior to seekers.

But don't take my word for it. A quick search will reveal the duscussions. Also the other fw emails.

 

Now it has been said that the headhunters are getting a kit soon. The mor deythan too.

If they model them with combi-bolters...then sad times.

If the webpage shows them toting those sweet FW combi weapons, then I'm going for it.

 

Speaking of mor deythan... Now that is how you do an assassin unit:)

[TemujinZero]

I agree that if the models are shown with combi-bolters or combi-weapons that will settle it. I suspect we'll only see bolters unfortunately.

[Terminus]

You reroll all misses, and reroll 1's to wound with Preferred Enemy. I know that doesn't change your point any, but worth bearing in mind. They might also be S3, but as they're preferred enemy, it's still wounding on a 5, rerolling a 1, and grants Preferred Enemy to Dynat's Phosphex Bomb.

Not sure if we're disagreeing here? Preferred Enemy lets you re-roll 1s to hit and to wound. When you have BS5, preferred enemy re-roll and twin-linked re-roll amount to the same thing, that's all I was saying. I guess snap shots benefit more. And yes, it does help the dagger stabs, but those guys are mainly HOW hits and ablative bodies. I expect Dynat and the Prime will be doing most of the heavy lifting.

 

Well I trawled the 'we are alpharius' fb group, the heresy 30k page and the earlier pages of this very thread.

Lots of discussion on this. Many people just go ahead and take combi weapons.

General feeling of headhunters being inferior to seekers.

But don't take my word for it. A quick search will reveal the duscussions. Also the other fw emails.

 

Now it has been said that the headhunters are getting a kit soon. The mor deythan too.

If they model them with combi-bolters...then sad times.

If the webpage shows them toting those sweet FW combi weapons, then I'm going for it.

 

Speaking of mor deythan... Now that is how you do an assassin unit:)

I am very much looking forward to both units, although the Mor Deythan are a tad overkill with the ravens... the upgrade bodies blended with a seeker squad may look better at the end of the day. Yes, it would be a joyous day if the Headhunters dropped with combi-weapons in hand.

 

When it comes to shooting, Seekers are absolutely better. They can also get preferred enemy for their combi turn, except it's not limited to preferred enemy. When using regular bolters, I like the specialist rounds more than banestrikes.

 

 

Hesh lumping them with the Harrowmaster in a drop pod list is probably about as good a use as you can get out of them.

Yeah, this is the bomb. I'd try to find points for a Forge Lord with rad grenades to add to this unit too, giving them "power swords" across the board, and +1 to Wound with their HoW.

 

This is brutal (since you now instagib T5 models too), but pretty expensive. Dynat is already 205 points with dagger (man, his wargear is so stupid, he should either just have a paragon blade, or at least a bolt pistol so he could swing 4 times with the powersword like a regular Praetor), a 5-man squad with heavy bolter/power fist/artificer armour is 210, and another 100 for the dreadclaw. How about a 65 point apothecary with power axe and artificer armour?

Edited October 23, 2015 by Terminus

[Slips]

I thought Headhunters still had SIA minus Scorpius Bolts which were traded for Banestrike?

 

...I mean yeah, Tempest Bolts aren't great...S3 Ap6 Small Blasts? But they can be hilarious....ly frustrating for the enemy. Gains Shred in ZM though!

[Terminus]

Headhunters only have banestrike rounds. Seekers can swap their scorpius shells for banestrikes for free, although I would rather have a 24" shred rending shot even at heavy 1, than an 18" rapid fire PE budget-rend. And kraken bolts chew up anything not in power armour.

[Perth]

Hey guys, I'm considering delving into 30k with the XXth Legion. I'm familiar with the background fluff, but not as up to date on the tabletop rules of the Alpha Legion and had a few questions I hope you guys can help with. 

 

1) What are the common list themes? Is infiltrating blocks of infantry the only way to go, or can mechanized approaches work well? Drop Pods?

 

2) Is Alpharius decent at 2000 points? Obviously the higher the points limit the better he gets with his army wide buffs, but how is he out of the gate? How is he most often used?

 

3) Are there any other books besides 1 and 3 that contain useful units?

[Terminus]

Got to love how 2 different e-mails get 2 different responses on the same topic

Out of curiosity, how did you phrase your question? Sounds like they just quoted the red book.

[Caillum]

Perth, check out the entirety of this thread, as it has a lot of good stuff. :)

 

1. Orbital Assault with Armillus Dynat is probably the strongest build for AL, but they are very flexible so almost anything works.

 

2. Primarchs are good, but not many tend to bring enough to the table at 2000 points (too much tied up in 1 model). As cool as Alpharius' "One of Many" rule is, he's better starting the game revealed for army-wide Preferred Enemy (which lends itself to more models with Legiones Astartes, i.e. Infantry). He'll rip through vehicles but will need an Assault Transport to get him into combat.

 

3. The Legiones Astarted Gamer's Collection is the best bet, as the Red Books contain nearly everything you need (they are meant to be getting updated though). Rules for newer units like the Deredeo Dreadnought, Xiphon Interceptor, Damocles Rhino and Vindicator Tank Destroyer can be found in a variety of places, but often have rules on the FW website.

[GreyCrow]

@Terminus : Here's my email

 

 

 

Good evening,

 

First of all, congratulations on your presentation at the open day ! A friend of mine was in the audience and got everyone in our gaming group very excited about book 6, which we can't wait for !

 

A rules question regarding the Alpha Legion Headhunter Kill Teams sprung in one of our recent discussions. The unit entry can be found on page 260 of Horus Heresy Extermination :

 

"Any model in the Kill Team may upgrade their boltgun with banestrike ammunition with to a :

- Combi-Bolter with Banestrike ammunition ... +5 points each."

 

As Seeker squads (who can upgrade with combi-weapons) are mentionned in the unit description, my group and I were wondering whether there was an error in the unit entry and Combi-Bolter referred to either :

- A Combi-Bolter with Banestrike ammunition as described in Extermination page 259

- A Combi-Weapon as available to Seeker Squads (ex: combi-plasmas, etc), the Boltgun part of which would have banestrike ammunition.

 

Thank you very much for clarifying this !

 

Sincerely,