[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[Excessus]

Just remember that if you start the game with Alphy revealed, he can't join infiltrating units. He doesn't have astartes rule and he doesn't have infiltrate. :(

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

@Terminus : Here's my email

 

 

 

Good evening,

 

First of all, congratulations on your presentation at the open day ! A friend of mine was in the audience and got everyone in our gaming group very excited about book 6, which we can't wait for !

 

A rules question regarding the Alpha Legion Headhunter Kill Teams sprung in one of our recent discussions. The unit entry can be found on page 260 of Horus Heresy Extermination :

 

"Any model in the Kill Team may upgrade their boltgun with banestrike ammunition with to a :

- Combi-Bolter with Banestrike ammunition ... +5 points each."

 

As Seeker squads (who can upgrade with combi-weapons) are mentionned in the unit description, my group and I were wondering whether there was an error in the unit entry and Combi-Bolter referred to either :

- A Combi-Bolter with Banestrike ammunition as described in Extermination page 259

- A Combi-Weapon as available to Seeker Squads (ex: combi-plasmas, etc), the Boltgun part of which would have banestrike ammunition.

 

Thank you very much for clarifying this !

 

Sincerely,

 

Ah. Might have helped to explain that effectively, Combi-Bolters do sod all. The monkeys who sit at their desk get paid to answer emails quickly. Not necessarily correctly.

[ddarz]

 

 

@Terminus : Here's my email

 

 

 

Good evening,

 

First of all, congratulations on your presentation at the open day ! A friend of mine was in the audience and got everyone in our gaming group very excited about book 6, which we can't wait for !

 

A rules question regarding the Alpha Legion Headhunter Kill Teams sprung in one of our recent discussions. The unit entry can be found on page 260 of Horus Heresy Extermination :

 

"Any model in the Kill Team may upgrade their boltgun with banestrike ammunition with to a :

- Combi-Bolter with Banestrike ammunition ... +5 points each."

 

As Seeker squads (who can upgrade with combi-weapons) are mentionned in the unit description, my group and I were wondering whether there was an error in the unit entry and Combi-Bolter referred to either :

- A Combi-Bolter with Banestrike ammunition as described in Extermination page 259

- A Combi-Weapon as available to Seeker Squads (ex: combi-plasmas, etc), the Boltgun part of which would have banestrike ammunition.

 

Thank you very much for clarifying this !

 

Sincerely,

 

Ah. Might have helped to explain that effectively, Combi-Bolters do sod all. The monkeys who sit at their desk get paid to answer emails quickly. Not necessarily correctly.

 

 

Aye the guy probably just looked up the page and sent back what he saw.

 

I got the same reaction from a FW shop employee. He first had to find the right book, then had to find what a headhunter was, the read me the entry and said: "Nah, it says Comi-Bolters here mate"... yeah I could have done that myself

To be fair, what else could he do. After he read the rules and thought about it he was convinced, but he couldn't just hand me an FAQ now could he:)

[Terminus]

 

@Terminus : Here's my email

 

 

 

Good evening,

 

First of all, congratulations on your presentation at the open day ! A friend of mine was in the audience and got everyone in our gaming group very excited about book 6, which we can't wait for !

 

A rules question regarding the Alpha Legion Headhunter Kill Teams sprung in one of our recent discussions. The unit entry can be found on page 260 of Horus Heresy Extermination :

 

"Any model in the Kill Team may upgrade their boltgun with banestrike ammunition with to a :

- Combi-Bolter with Banestrike ammunition ... +5 points each."

 

As Seeker squads (who can upgrade with combi-weapons) are mentionned in the unit description, my group and I were wondering whether there was an error in the unit entry and Combi-Bolter referred to either :

- A Combi-Bolter with Banestrike ammunition as described in Extermination page 259

- A Combi-Weapon as available to Seeker Squads (ex: combi-plasmas, etc), the Boltgun part of which would have banestrike ammunition.

 

Thank you very much for clarifying this !

 

Sincerely,

 

Yeah, see, that's vaguely worded. A desk monkey skimming the email could easily assume you are asking for clarification on which source is correct. They looked up the option in the red book, and quoted you what it said. Of course, that sounds like I'm clasping at straws. Thankfully my opponents aren't as picky, so they would probably let me get away with it.

[GreyCrow]

Well, can someone then write another e-mail ? Perhaps third time's the charm.

[Terminus]

Does it really matter? I think we already have two images in this thread "confirming it", but none of it changes the rules as written. Then again, maybe we should bombard them with these questions until they update the Legion red books.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Terminus

[shaun03]

What's everyone's take in placing dynat with different types of units.

 

I have tried him with destroyers pricy but every effective CC. One of my favorites but costly destroyed and him in scouting LR

Headhunter gave that a try stacking him with PE is nice, but giving the current rule issues with weapons. For going this option for now.

Veteran sqs geared to assault works well, no over all bad option gives the most flexibility.

Normal tact sqs, if you just want to hide him and his CC this works, didn't see this best option for him.

 

I haven't put him in any type terminator sqs or support squads. Looking at maybe tossing in rewards of treason units. Depending on what I take, also support sq maybe all Flamers or volkite for add CC push.

 

Anyone else have build there particular too?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Can't imagine destroyers being very effective CC, they have no AP3 or better outside of a Sergeant. The Scouting Land Raider is not an assault vehicle either which is a pain. Headhunter Squads for Preferred Enemy is nice. They make him pretty powerful, and a Preferred Enemy Phosphex Bomb is pretty brutal. Infiltrate some Praevian+Boarding Shield Castellax with dual flamer and bring him down near them for a naughty little steam roller on a flank. With Infiltrate, you miss out on Tank Hunting Darkfire Lances which is a shame, but it doesn't matter.

[shaun03]

Destroyers them selfs aren't CC power houses, dynat CC is bosted by rad. I mistype what I was trying to say when adding him to them. scouting LR not being assault vic, does pose issues but there usually in good place for turn 2.

 

I need to start to incorporate more mech stuff to list. Just haven't gotten around to picking some units up.

 

PE is down right brutal when applied to phosphex

[Hesh Kadesh]

Take a Forge Lord with Rad nades then, they're cheaper, bring a Power Fist attack and can bring an augury scanner and nuncio to the party, which is something Headhunters don't have.

 

Unlike with things like Veteran Squads, Headhunters don't have any upgrades which are dependent on the size of the unit. 

[depthcharge12]

Has anyone though of running a Leviathan dread with their list? Or is it on ice until a drop pod can be assigned?

[helterskelter]

If you look at the way the missions deploy note the 2 foot gap between sides generally, if the cover is half decent and the deployment works out well you can be in charge range within one or 2 turns. Having move through cover helps. Assuming the battlefield also has decent cover too

[Cadmus Tyro]

So, turns out I'm making a second legion with all this cheap plastic coming our way. Or have I always been a member of the XXth?

 

I'm in the middle of list building and I thought I would ask your collective opinion. Is there any mileage in taking advantage of the "onslaught" FoC. Specifically the ability to guarantee second turn. I understand the benefit of taking first turn for an alpha strike, but I'm trying to think outside the box!

 

Including Alpharius seems sensible given his ability to seize on 4+, at least giving you the option to alpha strike and capitalise on poor deployment. I also like the idea of an elite infantry force of veterans, but perhaps that doesn't combine well with the above.

 

Can you tailor a list to utilise second turn in a more reactive play style?

 

Any suggestions brothers?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Drop Pods. But you can't take Rites of War with Onsslaught, so its go fish, really!

[zedmeister]

The new Leviathan calls to me. Any thoughts on including one in a deep striking/flanking list?

[Caillum]

Well, it can take a Dreadnought Drop Pod, so they're a viable option now.

 

The claw/drill load-out is cheap and effective:

- Dynat's "Harrowing" rule will mean those meltaguns have a +3 on the vehicle damage table, and the drill would have +2 (with 5 attacks on the charge), so I'd say whatever vehicle it targets is probably dead.

- the claw's "severing cut" rule is brutal against 2-wound Terminators, as are meltaguns, so they should rip up them too!

 

Pretty awesome stuff really. :)

[zedmeister]

As you say, that Kharybdis option is just excellent.

 

I'm thinking dropping one armed with a Siege Drill and Graviton Bombard into the backfield and cut it loose. I can see it murderising Rapier Batteries and Artillery Gunlines especially those Ordo Reductor batteries. It'll cleave through Minotaurs and Terminators.

Edited November 13, 2015 by zedmeister

[Terminus]

The words Kharybdis and excellent do not belong in the same sentence.

 

As for drop pods, I can't contemplate taking one without the phosphex cannon.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Flint13
Keeping it classy

[Hesh Kadesh]

Explain.

[Terminus]

Which part? The Kharybdis is way too many points to invest in a transport for a model that's already setting you back 300 points. If it had some proper guns, or was under 200 points, maybe. As it is, it's a lot of dead weight in a list that's not scoring or killing stuff, and taking up a heavy support slot. 

 

As for the phosphex discharger, it needs no explanation.

[Hesh Kadesh]

The Kharybdis is incredible. It's a 5HP Assault Flyer which comes down first turn in Hover mode before Flat Outing to where it needs to be. It's a Spartan without the weakness of Graviton, where even if it's destroyed, it gets the unit where it needs to be.

 

It's issue was that it never really had anything worthwhile to drop overmuch that couldn't be done more effectively. Now, you've got a WS5 I5 S10 AP2 Move Through Cover Walker with 2 S8 Hammer of Wraths and 5 Attacks on the charge after peppering it with 4 S6 Deflagrate shots and 10 Twin linked S6 Pinning Shots. 

 

The Kharybdis is underrated because there was nothing worthwhile to put in it that meant it was taking up the space of other Heavy Support units. If World Eaters, Night Lords or Sons of Horus had access to Kharybdis Assault Claw Dedicated Transports for their units, the meta would look VERY different. 

[Terminus]

There is the opportunity cost of giving up a heavy support choice that can be far more lethal than its piddly guns.  Have you seen one in person?  There is no way to target the same unit with all of its weapons, so you won't usually even get to shoot half of your guns.  Also, nothing worthwhile to put in there?  The same stuff people put in Spartans (and a lot of people love their Spartans) can go into the Kharybdis.

 

In this particular case, you know what else can deliver that big scary Leviathan where you want it? A dreadnought drop pod for 195 points less than the Kharybdis, and those points can go towards a Venator.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Terminus

[Slips]

There is the opportunity cost of giving up a heavy support choice that can be far more lethal than its piddly guns. Have you seen one in person? There is no way to target the same unit with all of its weapons, so you won't usually even get to target  Also, nothing worthwhile to put in there? The same stuff people put in Spartans (and a lot of people love their Spartans) can go into the Kharybdis.

 

You know what else can deliver something where you want it? A dreadnought drop pod for 195 points less than the Kharybdis, and those points can go towards a Venator.

With the Leviathan in Particular, it helps that the Kharybdis is a Dedicated Transport option for it.

 

So only 1 HS Slot is lost.

 

And while a DDP is substantially cheaper, once its down, its not going anywhere unlike the Kharybdis which can still move around. Not to mention that since the Leviathan has Frag 'Nades and MtC, using the Kharybdis to Drop in T1, Flat Out into optimal position, T2 Move 6" Disembark 6" Charge 2D6", the Leviathan just got some much needed Mobility which was one of the Main Concerns.

 

All a DDP will do is Drop down and give it an Av12 Shell for a Turn before it hops out. But, if your opponent is smart, there'll be nothing of value in range of the Leviathan by that point. And if its a Lucius pod, that Shrouded Buff is kinda wasted since he's already got a 4++

 

Not going to argue that its still ~600+ points over 2 Models in a single HS slot. But, thems the breaks.

 

If, however, you could shove 2 of them into a Kharybdis...

[Terminus]

Didn't notice the dedicated option. I stand corrected. That's still a crazy cost. The Karybdis is worth 175 at most. Two dreadnoughts capacity would also be good (why isn't it, seriously?).

 

The DDP gives shrouded to your other units too, so that buff is never "wasted". Te range issue is only if you are going twin fist. With fist/grav, you basically annihilate something with the grav bombard and phosphex, also creating a large "do not go here" zone. If your opponent runs away from its assault threat range, great, even more board control. Otherwise, the bombard is then blasting anything within 24" of it at that point. Hell, take two.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Terminus

[Hesh Kadesh]

Checking the rules for LoS, you have a 45 degree LoS vertically and Horizontally. About the only prevention on shooting all 5 is if you're right on top of the model or aren't fielding it on its flying stand, and as you've got around 13" leeway on average, you should be sweet. 

 

As for what people put in Spartans, Spartans suck, as do big fighty deathblobs. They ceased to be overly useful from 5th edition when you could no longer hop from combat to combat without being shot in the meanwhile. With a Dreadclaw, sure, you can put 500pts worth of Red Butchers or Firedrakes down, but in the end, they still get bum rushed.

 

A Leviathan in the back is only 550-565pts and isn't exactly something that an opponent can ignore. That gives you 200pts free over the above unit.