[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[helterskelter]

The one problem is now people are going to be aware of this tactic and start filling up on appropriate ways to defend against it. Wouldn't even be about stripping a kharybdis hull points. Immobilise a zooming flyer bye bye 500 points turn one. And before whoever gets out their math hammer to try and poopoo it, you can't rely on dice doing what you want. Yes 5HP makes it survivable. But there will always be something that will kill it when you don't want it too. Especially if you end up playing games lacking any proper sort of cover for something so big

[Hesh Kadesh]

It's not zooming. It deep strikes in hover mode.

 

So, the point is, it has Jink. And even if it's destroyed (despite 5HP and a 4+ save meaning that you'll statistically need 12 Grav weapons to one shot kill) the Dread is where it needs to be, (roughly). There are few Interceptor AP1/AP2 weapons capable of taking it out, and even if it does, nothing happens to the Dread. Interceptor is useless unless on Infantry; and who takes Lascannons in the numbers necessary to take them on?

 

I don't think people have actually seen or used one effectively and are too willing to throw it under a bus. A Dreadclaw is awesome, but if you want something to get somewhere, the Kharybdis is exactly that.

 

I will say that if it has the option for a Dreadclaw, the Dreadclaw would be more often taken. I'd much rather sack the missiles off for a reduction in cost to the scale of around 200-220pts (175 is still too cheap; 1.66x hull points, double capacity and is less likely to get blown up by a freak scatter)

Edited November 14, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[norngahl]

I must agree, the Kharybdis is way to expensive for what it does.

 

How often do you shove your kill units in and out of a transport?! That argument is pretty dead for me.. hey it can move around and can kill a marine or two.. won't be a game changer.

 

For 10 more bodies on the field, it just ain't worth it. Rather take 2x10 in dreadclaws and you still save 60 points and have pretty much the same effect on the board if you really mean it. Should have a third pod in your list, of course.

 

As a SoH player I still wouldn't field them if they were dedicated transports. Even 20 additional S4 attacks hardly change the game.. whoa, 1-2 dead marines for tacticals, whoa 2-3 dead marines from 10 terminators.. really.. the effect is so small, it just does not cut to build a list around this. I wouldn't take a Kharybdis even it was 100 points less. I wouldn't take units over 10 bodies anyway. As you said, deathstars are pretty boring and countered.

[shaun03]

What's all the rage behind the Leviathan? Edited November 17, 2015 by shaun03

[Terminus]

Very lethal to infantry and vehicles alike, gets bonuses with Dynat. Seems good.

 

On another note, what is the consensus on the classification of the Rapier? The datasheet states the unit composition is a squadron of Rapiers, which are artillery units, and each has 2 crew that are infantry. So is this is an artillery squadron, an infantry squad, or both? If it's not an infantry squad, it seems you can actually take them in Coils of the Legion without any problems.

[xera32]

They are an artillery squad. I wouldn't call a basilisk artillery carriage an infantry unit, and i would't call a thrunderfire cannon an infantry unit.

[Hesh Kadesh]

What happens when you put a Jump Pack Chaplain with them, or a Forge Lord on a Bike or Primus Medicae Jetbiker? What happens with any such unit.

 

This has been a running head scratcher since the book was released. It was almost as if FW don't know what they're doing. I like the chaps. I really do, and I want to like their rules. They had good vision and ideas, but that's as far as it gets. It barely stands up to the most minor of queries.

 

They've not stress tested the game at all. 

[Terminus]

Okay, so if rapiers are artillery squadrons, they do not have to have a transport/infiltrate/deep strike in order to qualify for the Rite. So it's actually not that severe a limitation, since you probably want your tactical squads in rhinos anyway. It does mean that you can't just bring a squad of Tyrant Guard along without coughing up for a Land Raider. Then of course there is the catch 22 of wanting to play larger games due to the extra compulsory troop, but not being able to take advantage of multiple characters that larger games allow. Still, I like the rite more with each passing day.

 

Regarding the classification of a unit when joined by a character with different movement rules, that ambiguity is common across the 40K system, so can't exactly be blamed on FW. They do need to clarify if the transport/deep strike/infiltrate clause needs to be met during army list building, or if you can meet it during deployment with Warlord Trait/Mutable Tactics/etc. They have in fact, clarified it in emails, but they need to do so in a more official capacity.

[GreyCrow]

Out of curiosity Terminus, would you recommend the core Troops for Alpha Legion (and to an extent Coils) to be MSU in transports or to be full blobs (obviously Assault Marines being an exception).

 

Because, thematically I tend to picture the Alpha Legion going more for the MSU approach even with its Terminators (so 5 in Land Raiders), than just 20 Marines appearing magically out of nowhere :p But I wanted your take on the matter since you seem to play quite a bit with them ;)

[Terminus]

Well, just to set the record straight, although I've had Alpha Legionnaires since 2nd edition when they were Slaaneshi Ultramarines, my foray into the 30K legion is relatively recent. I don't want to come across as some self-proclaimed Alpha Legion guru or anything, although I'd like to think that the amount and variety of games I play gives me a solid basis for accurate analysis. Most of my 30K experience comes from proxying Solar Auxilia with my Krieg or evaporating various flavors of Legionnaires with my Mechanicum. The latter is probably responsible for my sometimes harshly critical appraisal of Legion troop choices. :P

 

To answer your question, when I first started fiddling around with Alpha troop choices, "20 marines appearing magically out of nowhere" is exactly what I was thinking. Between infiltrate and scout and re-rolls to seize from Alpharius/the Rite, I was picturing deploying 20 dudes in a half circle 12" away from the opponent and opening fire with fury of the legion at top of turn 1. I even tried it once against an entrenched Iron Hands player. It was a glorious hail of bolters but mostly failed to wound or plinked off their armour, then the return fury and a scorpius blew them to pieces. Then I thought about what my standard plasma-fusil thallax or Thanatar would do to them. At the end of the day, it's 300 points tied up in bolters that may well not have any appropriate targets, aren't very mobile beyond deployment, and are quite fragile. And then you still need another troop choice (or two for coils!).

 

I believe Hesh does something similar with a full squad of Breachers and graviton guns, which can be a real pest and threaten a wider range of targets if planted midfield, and they are somewhat more survivable, but this option is even more expensive and static. 

 

To answer your question, I would go with three 10-man tactical squads in Rhinos for Coils. For Pride of the Legion/Delegatus, I would start with two full veteran squads in Rhinos, one with meltas (tank hunters), the other with heavy bolters (snipers). Then start loading up on toys.

 

---- Warning, wall of text incoming because I didn't feel like doing any work at work today!

 

Speaking of toys, I've been looking over the units you can steal with Rewards of Treason again. A basic consideration with all of these units is that most of them require a transport due to the Coils limitations. I'm okay with this, because I believe all troops benefit from transports, so I will strongly consider them even for units that don't have to buy them. That being said, I believe transports should be as cheap as possible, because they are by their nature disposable after their job is done (remember in 30K transports do not score). As such, I'm not a huge fan of Land Raiders as their points/damage output ratio is quite poor. The Kharybdis is an expensive floating land raider with less armour and worse guns, so again you're dealing with a non-contributor. Ravens and Assault Rams are nice, but don't roll to come in until turn 2 (so turn 3 charge best case) and may be delayed indefinitely. If FW ever wants to sell me a full FOC of Ravens, Raptors and Rams, they will make a Rite of War that can start rolling for them turn 1. Until then, however, most assault units I will be tempted to shove in a Dreadclaw for a relatively guaranteed second turn assault, which also has the side-effect of limit my bulky units to 5 men. Ranged units will get a nice cheap rhino and call it a day.

 

Assault Options
World Eater Red Butchers
Example: 5 Red Butchers, 2 with twin power axes, 2 with twin lightning-claws, Devourer with powerfist/chainfist - 300 points
Pros: lots of attacks, hatred/WS5, fearless, re-roll charge distance, 2 wounds each, 2+/4++
Cons: can't score, can't sweep, can't run, get hit on 3+

Death Guard Deathshroud Terminator Squads
Example: 5 Deathshrouds with melta-bombs - 235 points
Pros: cheapest option for 2 wound terminators, Ld10, scoring, shreding hand flamers and power axes with sweep, only terminators with melta-bombs; basically standard laernean terminators with an extra wound and melta-bombs
Cons: gets hot a minor concern but it's there, can't take advantage of extra attack from pistol due to two-handed melee weapon; WS4, can't take any powerfists for tougher enemies and only a 5++ save, so are basically bullies of weaker troops rather than main contenders

Salamander Firedrake Terminator Squads
Example: 5 Firedrakes with shields, 3 fists, 1 chainfist, Master with mastercrafted thunder hammer - 335 points
Pros: WS5, two wounds, 3++ invulnerable saves, scoring
Cons: most expensive terminators, Ld9 and no fearless/stubborn so least steady when taking losses, cataphractii armour strictly a drawback due to redundancy with shields

Word Bearers Gal Vorbak
Example: 5 Brethren, power axe, Martyr with paired claws/artificer/meltabombs - 245 points
Pros: innate deep strike, can run and sweep, stubborn, rage, rending, WS/S/T/I of 5, 2 wounds, additional guys only 30 points
Cons: not Legionnaires so don't get mutable tactics, Sv3+/5++ and cheap cost makes you want to take more than 5, but deep striking without a transport is slow and dangerous and bulky means you can only stuff 5 in a dreadclaw

Ultramarine Invictarus Suzerain Squads
Example: 10 Suzerain with 8 axes and 2 hammers - 355 points
Pros: WS5, Ld10, AP2 at initiative, 2+/5++ in melee so terminators without drawbacks, defensive grenades, chosen warriors, scoring, buff friendly leadership, the only unit among these that can stuff 10 bodies in a dreadclaw
Cons: 2+/6++ against ranged attacks, so stick to cover or melee

Shooting options
Iron Warrior Havoc Support Squads
Example: 10 Iron Havoks with 5 Autocannons, 5 Missile launchers, augury scanner - 340 points
Pros: Coils requirement can be met with a cheap rhino; interceptor, tank hunters and -1 to cover saves means they evaporate any standard fliers or transports, can stack wounds on monstrous creatures, hardened armour in case anyone ever tries to thudd gun you to death, can take less than 10 to save points and still have a very effective unit
Cons: standard MEQ profile, redundant with mutable tactics tankhunters but honestly should single-handedly deal with any armour that doesn't require BFLs or haywire.

Raven Guard Mor Deythan Strike Squads
Example: 10 Mor Deythan with combi-weapons, Shade with artificer armour - 305
Pros: Stealth, Scout, shroud bombs and two attacks each, Fatal Strike for shreding and rending flamers is awesome and even more so with preferred enemy from Alpharius, darkwing as dedicated option, really like pretty much all the mutable tactics, can take less than full 10 and still have a very effective unit
Cons: it can be very hard to utilize 10 flamer templates but you could always take half the combis as plasma or just take fewer guys

Salamander Pyroclast Squads
Example: 10-man Pyroclast Squad with melta-bombs, Warden with power fist/dagger - 305 points
Pros: flamers for hordes, inferno "pistols" for elites, melta bombs for vehicles, artificer armour with a 5++ against most weapon-types that would ignore it, really like mutable tactics
Cons: very short-range weapons while being as effective as a tactical squad in close combat (although nasty overwatch), only S4 flamers as Alpha Legion, will get rolled by enemies with power axes/fists

Night Lord Terror Squads
Example: 10-man Terror Squad with 9 volkite chargers, Headsman with power fist/dagger/artificer armour - 270 points
Pros: innate infiltrate, dreadclaw as dedicated option, preferred enemy infantry, volkite chargers, also pretty good in melee with 3 attacks per guy
Cons: very expensive with MEQ profile, plus short range means they NEED a transport but can't take a rhino so infiltrate is wasted, preferred enemy is wasted if alpharius is fielded, volkite is done better and cheaper by support squads without need for Coils
 

General Thoughts

All are valid options to varying degrees.The best shooting options seem clearly to be the Havocs for anti-transport/fliers and Mor Deythan for anti-infantry. While both of these units are very good, I'm actually loathe to select either of them for two reasons: 1. after already having to buy 30 guys in power armour, I am not pleased at the prospect of adding more squishy targets, and 2. there are many options in the Legion list for dealing with these types of targets, so why even bother with the Rite. So I am strongly leaning towards the assault options, again for two reasons: 1. they all have tougher profile, and 2. with the bipolar rules and wargear on larneans and headhunters, the Alphas don't really have a dedicated badass assault unit.

 

The most attractive to me are the Suzerain as they provide several unique benefits: AP2 at initiative, friendly buffs, higher body count, and getting to thumb your nose at Guilliman. Gal Vorbak also stand out as the cheapest option, and the Red Butchers are the scariest of the terminators. Can't really go wrong with any of them.

[GreyCrow]

Interesting points Terminus !

 

I do agree with you when you say Coils feels best with dedicated transports. Right now, aside from going full Spartans regardless of Infantry type, I've got the theory thanks to many members here that either you go Min squad with a DT, either you go max squad without one (because the only option to go max squad with a DT might be a bit of overkill on Tacticals/Breachers. Well not in all cases of course !).

 

For Coils, min squads with DT really shows both fluff and crunch promise. First of all, you get many different units which can go into very different ways, very fast while not broadcasting your intentions and sticking there. It allows them to flow seamless from target to target, hold back, move forward as needed. Secondly, it's really an all comers/combined arms list to exploit the opponent's weaknesses : if he lacks the ability to deal with high numbers of vehicles, you've got an edge. If he's invested full balls on killing spartans but is relatively lacking in anti-infantry, just pick Infiltrate and use your transports as mobile cover after disembarking/Infiltrating on the board, or deny the KPs.

 

It just seems right, but once again that might be exactly what the XXth wants us to think :p

 

Joke aside, you forgot the Fulmentarus/Tyrants in your shooty units. Even though they are expensive as hell, I just imagine 5 Fulmentarus Outflanking in a Phobos saying hello to your artillery squadrons with a trollface. No need for 10 guys since you'll obviously pick an angle where there is no cover :D Considering Alpha Legion operatives almost got Guilliman in his private sanctum, I don't see it as a stretch that they could get their hands on prototype suits :p

 

Your analysis proves that all units have pros and cons, so I guess Coils allows you to pick exactly the unit you want for the job amongst all the Legions without any limit.

[Terminus]

I didn't mention those two units because they are both ranged anti-medium armour units and require Land Raiders for transport. I've already stated my distaste for Land Raiders and why I am leaning towards stealing assault units. Your proposed squad is in the neighborhood of 600 points or more, so between them and compulsory troops you've blown through 1200 points.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, I was looking at a 3000 points army size I should have mentioned that.

 

For 2000 points, I've got a feeling that 2 Troops might just be enough to play Vanilla and that this specific ROW is reserved for just a notch up. One thing that took time for me to understand in 40k is that Troops and "Core" units should scale up relatively linearily with the points level, and I think 30k follows that rule of thumb too.

[xera32]

I love your breakdown Terminus, and I agree with most things. But I would like to point out that Mor Deythan can do 1 thing that is almost unique inside a Legion list, and that is be incredibly effective AT. For AL we can do tank hunting rending plasma guns. With 10 coming out of a dreadclaw or deepstriking from Dynat, you can do ~9hp of damage to an AV14 vehicle. Doing this outside of grav spam can be a challenge. for 4-500 points you can almost 1 hit kill a Warhound.
 

Also you can't look at the units in isolation, AL have lots of buffs and synergies among their units. Gal Vorbak have no way to quickly advance up the field, but Skorr can just infiltrate them.

[Terminus]

That's a very good point about the Mor Deythan as tank hunters (all the more reason to field half as combi-plasma?), although I really like my meltas with Dynat since they blow stuff up on a 4+. Then there's the issue of them being more soft MEQ bodies. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the unit, I wish Headhunters could take some lessons from them, and they are awesome and unique enough to make you want to play Raven Guard (as if the crazy rite and drop commander, and solid cross-over 40k potential weren't enough).

 

I do question your numbers a bit. Let's assume all 20 shots hit, because we're talking about twin-linked BS5. To glance or penetrate AV14 you need to roll a 6 to rend. With tank hunter, you have a ~31% chance per shot to roll a 6. So as a rough estimate, you should only do about 6 hull points (4 of them will be pens with +2 to the damage roll, which ain't bad). You also forgot the void shields the Warhound has (and the flare shields on Spartans). Still, a unit with half combi-flamer and half combi-plasma is definitely worth trying out. You can pop half the combis during Fatal Strike, and save the others for another turn of mayhem. Seems good.

 

Also agreed with you about Skorr. I get a lot of joy from the flexibility I can get by fielding Veterans, Mutable Tactics, and Skorr's choice of trait. You can tailor your guys for every encounter. Giving Gal Vorbak infiltrate is solid, as it allows an alternate way to deploy them. With infiltrate and scout (vigilator?), you can spend the dreadclaw points on three more bodies and you're still reaching the enemy lines very soon. Although I am not sure I like leaving them in the open for a turn while they set up their charge. One of the things I like about the dreadclaw is it absorbs that turn of shooting before I can engage, and if it happens to survive, can reposition the unit further for an ideal charge.

[Resonance]

i als really like the Suzie squad, but what's the delivery system? Just infiltrate them up the board? Only other way I see it is in a land raider.

[Terminus]

Dreadclaw.

[v6v77]

Guys this debate is raging at my club now people are new to the heresy (thanks BaC... Joking i love it really).

 

Venom sphere apoths.... HoW too just them or unit.

[Resonance]

'Venom spheres are assault grenades that grant their bearer the hammer of wraith special rule'

 

That's pretty cut and dry.

[v6v77]

'Venom spheres are assault grenades that grant their bearer the hammer of wraith special rule'

 

That's pretty cut and dry.

So just them. Good. Otherwise... Ouch.

[Terminus]

The venom harness is the one that works for the whole unit.

[Slips]

The venom harness is the one that works for the whole unit.

And can only be taken by Terminators too, iirc.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Don't remember there actually being an option for it. Only Lernaeans have it otherwise.

[Slips]

Don't remember there actually being an option for it. Only Lernaeans have it otherwise.

Which may be why I thought of Terminators, good catch

[Hesh Kadesh]

I don't know if that is an oversight or intended. A headscratcher and annoyance, as Alpha Legion Terminators in Pride of the Legion could be pretty lethal; it is about the only time Banestrikes are useful, and Hammer of wrath on top of that, combined with Infiltrate means that they are well placed to be more powerful that credit is normally given Terminators.