[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[Slips]

Might be intentional so that Larneans have something else above normal termies.

 

For their standard loadout andnstuff they arent that mucb priceier and can be taken as troops in Pride since they're Elites (right)?

[Hesh Kadesh]

If I'm honest, Lernaeans are undersold in the last few months. Would be useful to have models if I'm honest.

 

They get Dreadclaws, and with Counter Attack with Pride of the Legion. Don't really need excessive AT overmuch. Does it really matter to kill a Spartan when you're putting WS5 Stubborn Counter Attack 2+/4++ models in enemy lines anyway? With Leviathan Dreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts and Lightning-Primaris all coming down too, it is one of the few times when an all Terminator list might be viable.

[Terminus]

Lernaens pay like 15 points for Hammer of Wrath grenades, Stubborn and WS5 over standard Legion Terminators, which is a sweet deal. Their melee weapons being power axes and power fists is also not a problem (maybe one lightning claw in there would have been nice, but whatever), and I guess technically the unit leader could take a power dagger for an extra attack? Conversion beamer is a weird weapon option, but you want the plasma blaster anyway. Their only flaw is that the unit pays 28 points to upgrade their weapons to Volkite chargers, which I don't feel is really worth it. They aren't really going after the targets that volkite likes, but I suppose it gives them an option if they come across a lot of hordes. If they could swap their chargers for combi-weapons, they would be top notch for me, right after Tyrant Guard and maybe even ahead of Red Butchers. In the grant scheme of things, though, 28 points "wasted" and the loss of 4 potential combi-weapons is not a huge deal in larger games.

 

Personally, I'm holding out until they release some models for them. I hope they look like the Contemptor.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Terminus

[Slips]

Conversion Beamers are an odd choice but, if you're rolling the proposed Pride Force of using Larneans as Troops / Bodies in general for the list, you could potentially dedicate a unit to backfield Objective capping and give them a Conversion Beamer (or two if rolling with 10) to give them the chance to at least contribute something with long range shots.

 

You might not always get the S10 hit, but at the very least, S8 can help take down some of the weaker vehicles and free up the shooting from your other units and even permit those that are close by to charge the insides. Even up close its still an S6 Small Blast.

 

Its still an expensive upgrade but, hey, you cant win em all.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Dynat, Tank Hunters, Pride of the Legion = 200

 

Graviton Rapiers = 225

Graviton Rapiers = 225

 

10 Lernaeans, 2 Conversion Beamers, 2 Chainfists, Venom Sphere Harness = 465

10 Lernaeans, 2 Conversion Beamers, 2 Chainfists, Venom Sphere Harness = 465

Veteran Squad, +3 Marines, 2 Power Swords, Sergeant with Axe 200

 

Dreadclaw = 100

 

Kharybdis = 260

Kharybdis = 260

 

= 2500pts

 

Just a very strange list. Both of the Lernaeans come in first turn, Rapiers sit in cover, and stop enemy from moving up the board. Dynat's Warlord Trait is wasted, but Hammerblow Assault is why you take him. His special rule doesn't take effect until he's down though.

 

Target enemy assault transports first so that you can pin their assaulting units, followed By Dreadnoughts. If a Leviathan or 3 exist, take them down systematically. 

 

Veteran Squad goes into enemy tactical squads. 

 

You try and get your S10 Blasts to be able to hammer blow enemy tanks on opposite sides of the board, because S10 AP1 Tank Hunters means you blow it up on a 3 and even Penetrate Spartans rear armour on a 5+ with a reroll.

 

Hopefully we're going to get a Rite of War in Book 6 that makes them more useable.

 

Repeat after me. Lernaeans get Split fire. Lernaeans get split fire, Lernaeans get split fire....

[Excessus]

Just a thing, you can give a harness to your preator in terminator armour...and he can take poison spheres too. :)

 

I asked FW about it back in march:

 

 

Hi
 

I'm wondering about the wording of the Venom Sphere Harness rules. It says "the firing Terminator and any squad they have joined", thus I take it the venom sphere harness is an option for a Praetor who is the only character with an option for a harness that can join units. Is it possible to upgrade a Praetor's harness to a Venom Sphere Harness by upgrading frags to venom spheres or by some other way?
 

Hydra dominatus!

 

 

Hi Andre.

 

Venom Spheres can be taken by Terminator Armoured Independent Character that has also purchased a Grenade Harness. The Venom Spheres will still cost the extra 5 points.

 

If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.


Regards,

Forge World

[Slips]

Huh. That has the potential to be pretty nasty.

[GreyCrow]

To be honest, might as well take the PF on the Lernaean for the points. You're already swinging at I1 and get no benefit in the form of extra attacks.

 

The way the unit is done, for me they are supposed to be more Elite Terminators than any other Legion, with the best gear, better training. So, instead of the AC they get the Conversion Beamer. Volkite Chargers instead of Bolters, fancy gear, etc.

 

I just wouldn't put them into the backfield with a Conversion Beamer personnally. I can understand that Infiltrating a squad of 10 with 2 is awesome to ensure a good firing position, but aren't there more interesting options for 400 points ? In a Legion that highly lacks melee units, I feel they can really shine.

[shaun03]

Equipping dreadnoughts, going to add 3 more dread to my collection and little unsure on what options I should go with. Right now I have one with dule AC.

 

Looking at taking one with pair of claws and grav for buit in weapon, kinda feel this good threat to armor and troops a like. Would fist be a better option?

 

Second one wanted to go with dule melta for AT role, but with that I limiting it role and giving it too short range weapons would leave with wasted turns,

 

And last one wanted to go with dule volkite, to thin out troops and can be somewhat effective on light at. We lack good CC options so death raying strong CC units. But again limted range and at potential.

 

Autocannon and las cannons look tempting have longer range than what weapons I looking to take. Does anybody use these weapons?

Or have any other good combos on weapons to take?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Welcome to the problem of Lernaeans. Since book 3 came out, and the concept of Super sneaky Assassin terminators in all Alpha Legion awesomeness, Lernaeans kinda suck straight off the bat.

 

The Dreadclaw option is what makes them much more flexible in 30k, as they don't Deep Strike natively, and Dynat giving them a +1 to Damage rolls and shooting down the length of a deployment zone.

[GreyCrow]

Welcome to the problem of Lernaeans. Since book 3 came out, and the concept of Super sneaky Assassin terminators in all Alpha Legion awesomeness, Lernaeans kinda suck straight off the bat.

 

The Dreadclaw option is what makes them much more flexible in 30k, as they don't Deep Strike natively, and Dynat giving them a +1 to Damage rolls and shooting down the length of a deployment zone.

 

Err, can you elaborate on why they suck please ? If you think about fielding only 5 of them without a transport of course they're going to suck :p

 

Because Infiltrating a Land Raider with Armoured Ceramite and 5 of these screams awesomesauce for me, and for 250 points you've got 16 Power Fist attacks at WS5 on the charge, along with Volkite Chargers.

Their gameplay is exactly the same as standard Terminator squads, except that they're just better at everything for 10 points per model. And Stubborn on Ld9 is pretty awesome, only 11% chance of failing a Morale Check regardless of how many casualties they've taken.

 

Sure a Dreadclaw can work well enough instead of the Land Raider. But I'd actually have them come Turn 2 flying for pinpoint positioning on Turn 3 where they want to be and so they're harder to shoot down.

 

I just don't see them working without a transport and without Power Fists. I wouldn't bother with the Venom Harness unless there were 10 models strong just to maximize the Hammer of Wrath.

[Hesh Kadesh]

270pts for a Land Raider, just to get them into CC turn 2.

 

250pts for a WS5 Power Fist charge is pretty good; assuming they get there. At 10pts if similarly equipped, but I don't think they would be similarly equipped. 5 Terminators in a Dreadclaw are 275pts. I can take 2 for only a little more than 5 man squad.

 

That's why they suck.

 

Throwing points at ANY unit can make them good, maybe even Rotor Cannons. But there is a line between making a unit good, and you won't find other units doing them better.

 

No unit (except maybe Recon Squads) suck outright in 30k. It's just that there's other units which do the same job but better.

 

In the list I posted before, they still "suck" in that manner. It's just that they have a niche effect that other's do not provide which I'm trying to capitalise on. I cannot see it winning any 30KGT anytime soon.

[Terminus]

GT victories are a hollow affair based more on luck in pair-ups and list min-maxing than any innate competence. Any "serious business" competition with GW/FW-provided material is a fool's errand.

[GreyCrow]

270pts for a Land Raider, just to get them into CC turn 2.

 

250pts for a WS5 Power Fist charge is pretty good; assuming they get there. At 10pts if similarly equipped, but I don't think they would be similarly equipped. 5 Terminators in a Dreadclaw are 275pts. I can take 2 for only a little more than 5 man squad.

 

That's why they suck.

 

Throwing points at ANY unit can make them good, maybe even Rotor Cannons. But there is a line between making a unit good, and you won't find other units doing them better.

 

No unit (except maybe Recon Squads) suck outright in 30k. It's just that there's other units which do the same job but better.

 

In the list I posted before, they still "suck" in that manner. It's just that they have a niche effect that other's do not provide which I'm trying to capitalise on. I cannot see it winning any 30KGT anytime soon.

 

But you can take the Dreadclaw too for the Lernaean, and get your Power Fists at WS5 with Stubborn and Volkite Chargers which are always nice to have. The same loadout on Terminators is 335 points. For Lernaean it's 350. So you're paying 3 points per model for both WS5 and Stubborn, that's Black Friday level bargain. What that effectively means is that you'll hit 33% more often in melee with high quality S8 AP2 attacks that ignore all armour AND cover saves on a 2+/4++ unit.

 

What you get with the Land Raider is the flexibility to hang back and pounce when needed while still pounding TL Lascannon shots somewhere. I know that the LR's firepower is bad for its points, no need to repeat it, but it's still nice to have. With the Dreadclaws, you're commiting them to an attack and pretty much telegraphing where you'll be going, giving the enemy one turn to welcome them.

 

Besides, you're not going to take a Terminator Squad with a Land Raider at 1850 or 2000 points, because that's 25% of your points invested in one single (but efficient because it has the means to get there). At this points level you'll be taking a Dreadclaw because that's 150 saved points that you can spend on more board presence (exactly 15 more Tacticals) or more killy stuff.

But at 3000+ points, when you're starting to have Armour saturation, a threat saturation that is divided accross multiple killy units, and when the opponent has the means to intercept and destroy Dreadclaws, then Land Raiders start to become interesting. Points level matter in unit selection a lot more than people realize.

 

I'd love if you could show me what unit does S8 AP2 melee better than the Lernaeans without skyrocketing its point cost. And what I mean by that is in terms of survivability, hitting power, ability to get into combat, ability to not get wiped out if losing. And let's picture this at a 3000-3500 points level.

Edited November 21, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Terminus]

At 3000 points, rather than armour saturation, you find more weapons that can just delete a Land Raider. Land Raiders are not great value at any point level.

 

Also, yes, getting WS5 and Stubborn is awesome, but no one in their right mind would normally spend the points on volkite chargers for a Legion Terminator squad.

[GreyCrow]

At 3000 points, rather than armour saturation, you find more weapons that can just delete a Land Raider. Land Raiders are not great value at any point level.

 

Also, yes, getting WS5 and Stubborn is awesome, but no one in their right mind would normally spend the points on volkite chargers for a Legion Terminator squad.

 

Fair enough, then I revoke my previous statement and replace it with the following : for 10 points you get both WS5 and Stubborn and let's through an extra gift that both grants extra anti infantry killing power and sceams "choom !" when you fire it :P Even for 10 points per model just WS5 is a godsend seriously, because it's 33% more hits for +25% of the cost of a basic Cataphractii Terminator squad with Power Fists.

On top of that you get rolling Ld9 forever and S5 shooty weapons with Deflagrate before you charge.

 

TL;DR, you're paying a 25% premium for getting 33% more hits in melee (that means 8% free extra hits if you take into account only the points differential as in invested for getting WS5) and that's not even counting the Stubborn and Volkite you get for free.

So, yeah, no. Lernaean don't suck. If someone says Lernaean sucks, he has to admit Terminator as a whole suck because Lernaean are just Terminators that do their job better for a points premium that is inferior to the melee benefit you gain without even factoring in the Volkites and Stubborn.

[xera32]

They might hit 33% more (which is not always the case anyway), for 25% more cost. But for equal points I could get more wounds, or different weapons for tasks or a chaplain to give similar bonuses. The Leraeans are only good if you were going to take volkite charges on your terminators anyway. They are spending points on improving their CC and ranged weapons that keep them out of CC. They have access to long ranged AT weapons, but the rest of the unit has short ranged AI weapons.

 

Their rules and loadout is all over the place with no single goal. Terminators are already on the edge of being ok and that is if you gear them for 1 specific purpose. If I wanted a big beatstick unit, go for 10 terminators with a chaplain. If I wanted a shooty unit go for a mix of volkite and combi weapons so you aren't shoehorned into an AI role, something that is already quite easy to access. If I was to take Leraeans it would be to use the things that normal terminators can't do for cheaper or better. And the only options I can see like that are taking dreadclaws, and taking conversion beamers.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Terminators do suck. They provide the cheapest and easiest access to Power Weapons with secondary/tertiary benefits.

 

Certain units don't, because they're Red Butchers or Rocket Vomit.

[GreyCrow]

They might hit 33% more (which is not always the case anyway), for 25% more cost. But for equal points I could get more wounds, or different weapons for tasks or a chaplain to give similar bonuses. The Leraeans are only good if you were going to take volkite charges on your terminators anyway. They are spending points on improving their CC and ranged weapons that keep them out of CC. They have access to long ranged AT weapons, but the rest of the unit has short ranged AI weapons.

 

Their rules and loadout is all over the place with no single goal. Terminators are already on the edge of being ok and that is if you gear them for 1 specific purpose. If I wanted a big beatstick unit, go for 10 terminators with a chaplain. If I wanted a shooty unit go for a mix of volkite and combi weapons so you aren't shoehorned into an AI role, something that is already quite easy to access. If I was to take Leraeans it would be to use the things that normal terminators can't do for cheaper or better. And the only options I can see like that are taking dreadclaws, and taking conversion beamers.

 

Why one would ever buy a Conversion Beamer on these units is beyond me save for the rule of cool ;) Of course you're not buying them for the long range anti-tank haha :D

Their loadout is all over the place only if you make it this way. Power Fists is the way to go with these guys and at 5 points a model it's a bargain. Like I said, you have extra Volkites for free, better hit ratio.

 

I can get behind your point about the exclusive access to special gear and that being the reason why you would take a Legion unit. What I don't understand is why you would cut yourself short of special benefits just because you want to spend some points. When you want to get something done, invest the points to do it right, and Lernaeans provide exactly that. ;)

 

Obviously you're also not going to take Terminators for more bodies on the ground, that's preposterous. But the unit analysis of the Lernaeans is that they are better than Terminators, for just a little premium.

5 Lernaeans with 5 Power Fists charging 5 Termiantors with Power Fists : 0.82 dead from the Volkites before charging (let's round that up to 1), followed by 4.44 Terminators dead in melee (and 1.67 Lernaen dead in return). Total kills : 5.26, total deaths : 1.67. Effectiveness : 3.149 Terminator dead per Lernaen

Now, if we had 5 Terminators with PF going for 5 Lernaean with PF : 0.74 dead from the Bolters (rounding up to 1), 3.125 dead in melee, versus 2.5 Terminators dead in return. Total kills : 4.765, total death : 2.5. Effectiveness : 1.906.

 

So that's 50% more effectiveness for a 25% premium. As I told you, you mainly pay for WS5 Terminators, and getting free Volkites and especially Stubborn which is particularly important in the case you're being charged by Terminators. If you lose combat and have 1 Terminator remaining, he's likely not to flee.

But it's okay you know if you don't want to pick the effective options because you think their layout is all over the place :p

[ddarz]

They are definitely more focus than Head Hunters, that's for sure.

Apart from the conversion beamer, that just straight up makes no sense - some extra weapons choices would be nice, maybe a cyclone missile launcher?
Or a Alpha Legion prototype terminator size kheres? ;) 

[Caillum]

Or a Alpha Legion prototype terminator size kheres? ;)

Yeah, if they could take the prototype Iliastus assault cannons like Blood Angels and Imperial Fists, that would be cool. Seems fluffy too.

[xera32]

For the price of those volkites, i could take combi plasmas on the terminators, end up being 10p cheaper for 5, and kill 3 before charging, or kill 1-2 before the Lernaeans get into range at 24". Doesn't matter if you are WS 5 when I can outshoot you. Doesn't matter if you are WS 5 if I can buy 25% more guys and get 25% more wound and attacks.

Volkites are designed for killing PA or weaker infantry. On a unit decked out in power axes or fists, I don't have a problem going through PA, and my primary target would be 2+ armour (so primarchs, terminators, Jetbikes) or vehicles. None of which are that scared of volkite. And to top it off, shooting before charging can backfire dramatically. I do not want to shoot myself out of a charge and miss out on using all those power weapons.

[GreyCrow]

For the price of those volkites, i could take combi plasmas on the terminators, end up being 10p cheaper for 5, and kill 3 before charging, or kill 1-2 before the Lernaeans get into range at 24". Doesn't matter if you are WS 5 when I can outshoot you. Doesn't matter if you are WS 5 if I can buy 25% more guys and get 25% more wound and attacks.

 

Volkites are designed for killing PA or weaker infantry. On a unit decked out in power axes or fists, I don't have a problem going through PA, and my primary target would be 2+ armour (so primarchs, terminators, Jetbikes) or vehicles. None of which are that scared of volkite. And to top it off, shooting before charging can backfire dramatically. I do not want to shoot myself out of a charge and miss out on using all those power weapons.

 

You can technically outshoot the Lernaeans with combi-plasmas, that is true, but as long as you get 2 turns of shooting the Lernaeans win out (because let's face it, the humble combi-bolter isn't that impressive :p ).

And yes, you can technically get 25% more models, but at 6 models you're starting to add up the cost pretty high because unless you're running Orbital Assault, you're either footslogging them (and 6 footslogging Terminators will die) or you're running a Spartan as a transport (which is a sound option, but it's still 50 points more than the Land Raider without any upgrades and you're wasting much of the transport capacity :) ). I'm not factoring in Infiltrate here because Infiltrating 6 Terminators near Rapid Fire range will have them killed in return fire :p 

 

The good bit with Volkites is that they still give this extra punch when you're charging MEQ or Solar Auxilia. Against TEQ they have the same stats as Combi-Bolters (and this is where the Power Fists do the work like you mentionned). Volkites are also the best general anti infantry choice on the Terminators bar from the dual LC (and in which case you're losing out on the Power Fist).

Like my calculations showed, in TEQ vs TEQ, the Lernaean are more efficient in terms of kill/death and by quite a large margin. What I didn't show is in the case of WS5 vs WS5 fights where you simply cancel out the bonuses they can get (other melee Terminator Elite, Command Squads, etc).

 

I'm not arguing for "Go Lernaean or go home" when it comes to Terminators. I'm proving through hard stats that they do not suck compared to other TEQ which is what Hesh was arguing. Yes, they cost a premium in terms of points, yes I know there is a big economic crisis in the world going on right now, yes I know supply lines have been highly disrupted by the Heresy, but it's no reason to go super cheap while a little premium can get you so much more.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Where are we going with this? Lernaeans aren't as good as they seem because they are splitting their investment into short range shooting (for intents and purposes, compare with an Assault 4 weapon), long range shooting (Unique access to Conversion Beamers) and melee (Power Weapons/Fists), with only a single S3 aP3 power dagger to take out hidden power fists or axes, and they don't have Overwatch.

 

They are already pretty expensive, Terminators already easily countered, and to become better theyneed further investment.

 

Their much vaunted flexobility and takes all comers approach is fine in a meta overview of the setting and in universe. In game hiwever, they are outclassed by the ability of other Terminators to be designed for the task they are being used for.

 

If the squad had access to a Volkite Culverin or even Caliver, sweet. Similar targets

 

They suck, because other things do it better.

 

Otherwise, you've got a squad that is equipped pretty 'meh'. Paying 225 for 5 Chargers, when you can pay 250 for 10 Calivers is meh.

 

Paying 250 for a Conversion Beamer is meh, when you can spend 215 on a Heavy Conversion Beamer Contemptor, or 300 on two Predators with a pair of HCB's. There is also a reason you never see AMY unit with CB's, heavy or not.

 

Power Axes? For 240 I get 7 Power Axe Terms, or 4 with Power Fists and 2 with Chainfists. I don't need any more. Alternatively, for the 370pts you spend on Dreadclawing, Plasblaster Power/Chain Fisting the squad, I spent 275-300pts of getting the unit to do what I wanted it to do, and saved the other 70pts elsewhere.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[GreyCrow]

Okay, let's look at it another way because I feel you are focusing way too much on the Volkite Chargers here :p Like I said earlier, there are two key bonuses of the Lernaen over regular Terminators : WS5 and Stubborn.

 

Let's compare the points cost of the loadouts of the melee weapons by forgetting about the Volkites for the moment (but still including the points for them in the cost of the Lernaean :

1) Power Axes : 5 Terminators with Power Axes = 175 points, 5 Lernaean with Power Axes = 225 points. We have a premium of 28%

2) Power fists : 5 Terminators with Power Fists = 200 points, 5 Lernaean with Power Fists = 250 points. We have a premium of 25%

3) Chainfists : 5 Terminators with Chainfists = 225 points, 5 Lernaen with Chainfists = 275 points. We have a premium of 22%

 

As I've demonstrated, WS5 yields 33% more hits. In all cases, the Lernaeans brings more hits with their melee weapons than their points cost, and that's not even factoring in the Volkites and Stubborn, which are awesome freebies like I said.

So, unless I wasn't able to spare 5 points a model, there is no reason why I wouldn't bring Lernaean over Terminators. And I don't even care about the exotic weapon options like Plasma Blaster or Conversion Beamer because 1 weapon per 5 men is not a reliable damage output but it's a rule of cool upgrade that will eventually do some damage somewhere (and I can get behind that).

I would even go further and say that because the better equipped they are, the lesser the differential in points is high with standard Terminators might as well equip them all with Chainfists and watch them murder Super Heavies and not get phased by Contemptors even more easily.

 

Sure, the unit is going to cost more but like I said, when I want a unit to do a job I want it to do it well :p WS5, without the shadow of a doubt or a counter argument, makes a melee unit do its job more efficiently than WS4.

You argue that you can take up to 1 to 2 extra Terminators. Like I said, go foot slog these guys, the opponent Tactical Support Squads will thank you for it ;) When you have a constrained transport capacity (5 for the LR or the Claw) and when adding more Terminators messes up with that ability to bring the much needed protection/delivery means, going for better trained/better geared models is the way to go.

 

It's not about determining a budget per unit and trying to find what sticks inside of it. Rather, it's about determining the needs and making all the necessary investments so that this unit satisfies your needs and can do it efficiently :)

So, even if we're talking 10 Terminators, I'd rather take 10 Lernaeans over 10 Terminators if I wanted to field Power Fists, Chainfists. With Chainfists both units cost respectively 525 and 425 points, putting the points differential at 23% still for 33% more hits against WS4 and still 25% more resilience against WS5.

 

Obviously, at lower points game 70-100 points is a big differential and you're definitely not going to invest efficiently in Terminators at that points level so like you said it's better to go for some alternatives. But at 3000 points, 100 points is 3% of your points total and this is likely not to change the entire structure of the list. But what you've gained by investing these extra 100 points is a unit that can do its job better, with more reliability, along with Stubborn (and free Volkites ! \o/ Because we can never have enough choom :D )