[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[Hesh Kadesh]

What do you want me to say. "Yes, you're right, you've repeated the exact same information at me in twenty posts, so you must be correct"? 

 

Stop talking percentages. Talk real numbers. I don't want to turn you away, because you're clearly eager, and it's how I got started with competitive playing. Number crunching. It's a good into to playing reasonably competitive, and lets you have at a glance difference.

 

Let's use the baseline. 5 Terminators, unedited, versus 5 Lernaeans, unedited. 175 vs 225. We'll assume that for this instance, I'll have taken Power Axes on all, rather than the more usual 2 Axes/3 Swords or vice versa.  Also, let's disabuse us of another misconception. Terminators don't kill other Terminators. They stall them, so that they don't kill other more valuable units. Sure, they can, but that's throwing good points after bad. Just cut the loss, and spend other points on more valuable kill squads or units. So, let's go after our better targets - let's say objective huggers A, and objective huggers B.

 

A are back line huggers. A Tactical Squad scrimping on points for a Rhino because they're acting all incongruous hidden at the back, not even shooting because 1; 10 extreme range bolter shots do nothing, and b; they don't want a Medusa dropping deuce on them. Said Tactical Squad, 170pts, because Nuncio Vox and Vexilla.

 

Lets go in with the Lernaeans first of all. Overwatch nets 20 shots, 3-4 hits, 1-2 wounds, mostly 0 chance of dead Lernaean. Attacks - 11, hitting on 3-4's, is 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds, 0-1 dead, although more likely 0. Return attacks = 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6-7 wounds, 6-7 dead. Enemy squad takes morale check at -6 or -7, and has to roll snake eyes, reroll if the Vexilla is alive. Flees. Terminator Squad takes objective. Presumably stays their for rest of the battle. 2+/4++ unit sat on enemies home objective.

 

Standard Squad, Overwatch results the same. 15 Attacks, 7-8 hit. 5-6 dead. Enemy squad takes morale check at -5 to -6. Similar result, or if they don't fall back, so what? The Terminators are where they want to be, and cannot be shot by enemy Ap2 weaponry.

 

The difference? 50pts saved, in exchange for +1 Combat resolution. Stubborn? Stubborn didn't come into it. Volkites? On a Cataphractii Squad, which cannot run, the Volkites weakness is not only its short range, but it's ability to cause a charge to be shortened.

 

You won't find them bad, but you'll find that you can do more with your entire army when you shave unneccesarry points bloat, such as 50pts from the squad which does the same role as well as any other.

 

Can we get back to actually talking tactics rather than blithely repeating calculator figures?

[Excessus]

Guys, guys!

 

Let's all take a step back and think about this. It's not 40k, it's Horus heresy...terminators are freaking cool...and legion specific terminators are even more so!

 

 

Sometimes that's enough...

[Slips]

It really truly comes down to flavour "I want to use larneans because cool" and efficiency "these terminators do the same for cheaper in the same situation".

 

In the most average of situation, yeah 5 man termy squad is a better use of points.

 

But, if you really want to run Larneans, whats to stop you? Its your army. Just be aware that the moment you post a list and ask for competitively inclined feedback, youll be pointed towards regular terminators since its the more efficient choice to perform the same job.

 

And, as Hesh demonstrated a few pages back, you can theoretically make a working Larnean List its just going to be much more limited inscope because the minor/medium points gap starts to add up, rapidly.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Guys, guys!

 

Let's all take a step back and think about this. It's not 40k, it's Horus heresy...terminators are freaking cool...and legion specific terminators are even more so!

 

 

Sometimes that's enough...

Point taken.

 

Having said that, this isn't the painting section. 

[xera32]

Guys, guys!

 

Let's all take a step back and think about this. It's not 40k, it's Horus heresy...terminators are freaking cool...and legion specific terminators are even more so!

 

 

Sometimes that's enough...

They sure are, which is why I have crazy axemen and rocket vomit.

[GreyCrow]

Sorry guys and especially to you Hesh if I sounded angry or violent, I was most definitely not Pushing the limits of unit analysis is how I usually get the entire picture, so I tend to go the extra mile in arguments. But I have no beef with Hesh nor everyone else here, quite the contrary actually. People who defend another perspective vehemently with logic get my respects, and very often help me see different things whether they want it or not

 

That said, like Hesh said, it's not the painting section ! (I'm just joyfully trolling you here Excessus, it was a tongue in cheek comment).

 

@Hesh : Do not discard percentages. I agree that they aren't the be all end all measurement, but when comparing efficiency (in this case cost effectiveness) they are completely valable and valuable

 

I agree with you that Terminators are not the prime target of Terminators. What I was coming from is that when I want a melee beatstick, I want a melee beatstick that does its job regardless of the circumstances. I play 40k competitively, and I face the cheesed out lists all the time (Necrons, Eldars, Dark Angels 2++ rerollable with attached Wolf Guards for nasty melee).

I know and I agree that the main threat to Terminators here isn't other Terminators but plethora of AP2 shooting especially in the form of Support Squads both from the Tactical and the Heavy variant.

The standard strategy in competitve 40k is : the Troops slots usually don't bring much except board control, so early target priority is killing stuff that can kill your support, then kill the support that can kill your Troops, and finish by mopping up the mooks. I feel that this applies even more to 30k due to Tactical Squads mainly being worth it against other Tactical Squads due to weight of fire (and no special wepaons), and with efficient support units that have the loadout to do their job.

 

Like I said, Terminators are a melee support unit, and as such I want them to be as efficient as they can get in terms of output but not cost. Lernaean Terminators are more killy than their standard counter parts when these two units face together.

I agree that this case will not happen often, and if my melee unit isn't capable of overcoming another melee unit thrown at it then it's not efficient. Stubborn in this case helps when fighting against other Terminators or Dreadnoughts sent to kill the Lernaean and like you mentionned won't be of much use in the fight against MEQ. That scenario can happen and I want to not shy away from it, because that is what loses games.

And like you said, TEQ vs TEQ might be mutually assured destruction, but I'll take any edge I can get if that means I've got one remaining Terminator that the enemy will have to deal with lest he captures/contests objectives

 

But, if competitively you melee support unit isn't the most powerful/resilient it can get, or if you shooty support unit isn't the most efficient it can get, then to me it requires to be reworked

 

Example : 10 Lascannon heavy support unit. If I were to run these, I wouldn't go out without a Siegebreaker if I can't give them Tank Hunters somewhere else. I know it's 100 points on top of an already expensive unit, but in the meta I've been trained in overkill is what wins games. 10 shots will yield 6 hits, 3 glances/Pens on AV13, and 1-2 extra with the rerolls. That's doubling the output on what you're likely to shoot them against. I'd rather score 5 glancing hits on a Contemptor than 3, just because the saves might mean the Contemptor won't be dead.

 

Anything else than absolute certainty of an edge you've got means leaving the fate of the battle primarily in the hands of the dice gods, and I'm not yet converted to Chaos Which is why I'm advocating expensive units that work, and making sure your other support units can kill what kills your support early on and efficiently. In the case of the Lernaean, my other support units would aim to kill what kills Termies, etc.

(Now I just had a nasty idea with Dynat and 10 Deep Striking Lernaeans, supported by Outriders or Sky Hunters whose goal is solely to block the high yiekd anti-TEQ units !)

 

But I'll happily stop the conversation here if the mods would prefer that. I just want you to be sure that I meant no disrespect engaging you this way, quite the opposite !

 

___

 

@xera : When you mean Rocket Vomit, are you talking about Fulmentarus ?

[Slips]

Siege Tyrants, yo! They did it first and better for cheaper! Edited November 24, 2015 by Slipstreams

[Terminus]

My post got deleted, so I'll just agree with what Hesh said.

[Excessus]

My post got deleted, so I'll just agree with what Hesh said.

There has been no involvement from mods in this thread apart from posting.

[GreyCrow]

My post got deleted, so I'll just agree with what Hesh said.

 

There was a little server hickup around the time you posted, so maybe your post got lost in the Warp. :)

[ddarz]

Hmm

You know, lerneans would be pretty amazing if they had volkite calivers (or even culverins)

 

5-10 2+/4++ stubborn bodies with a conversion beamer sitting on an objective with respectable shooting reach at 30 or 45 inches. Yo'ud have your hands full knocking them off

I'd pay good points for that. Not that op either

 

Doesnt quite fit the fluff. But they don't do that anyway

[v6v77]

I think Lerneans are a fluff centric unit. They are designed to be the AL ethos in unit form ie ready for anything.

 

After yet another blood bath game last night i wanted to know how people run their 3 troops (10 man tacs) at 2000 points.

 

I won but the only thing left alive was my typhon and fire raptor.

 

The tacs currently only infiltrate with an apoth.

 

EDIT: Should add i am running coils.

Edited November 25, 2015 by v6v77

[xera32]

Always take the rhino for tacs. 20 man units get wiped out by typhons and scorpiuses, but in a rhino they are relatively safe from that stuff. It also gives them much needed mobility to get across the field. And if you are infiltrating they can easily sit in reserve for late game objective capping.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Rhino's. No point in making them more resilient against Bolter Fire when you can make them immune to Bolter for less points.

[v6v77]

Cheers guys.

 

*shout into the distance* Oh forgeworld... 3 diemos rhinos if you please.

[Slips]

Save some cash, use plastic rhinos :p unless you really want the resin ones.

[Terminus]

Yea, not worth the resin hassle and price for just Rhinos.

[d@n]

My thoughts on the lernaean terminator squads. You can out flank them in a land raider or Spartan and use its las cannons to get some side armour shots on a hidden scorpius/basilisk etc and if you come in on the wrong side of the board then you can use the conversion Beamer to do the same. plus with the conversion Beamer you'll get rear armour on all the stuff he has sent down to your deployment zone. If your not infiltrating and playing a gun line with counter attack or tank hunter you can sit back with your terminators blowing up armoured transports from range until there occupants get close enough for you to use your vulkites.

 

You also have a master crafted chainfist on your sarge with an extra attack due to taking a power shank which will be great for tearing though back field vehicles.

Basically use them to tear through your opponents backfield, taking out armour with las cannons and chainfist and rapiers and infantry with volkites then sit on your opponents home objective whilst dropping strength 10 ap1 templates onto all the stuff he has spent 3 turns getting into your deployment zone.

[GreyCrow]

@d@n : Regardless of whether the Lernaean Terminators are a good investment points wise (I think we did an exhaustive discussion on the matter a few pages back with no definitve conclusion :p ), I'm not sure it is a good investment to purchase a Conversion beamer if you plan to have them in a Land Raider.

 

In general, I see two ways of running the units to be resilient enough : either min squad in the transport, either max squad if they're footslogging. Obviously, max squads in Rhinos/Spartans are not out of the equation either, I meant my previous point as a minimal criteria of resilience.

 

If you run them in Raiders, you won't really get to shoot with the Conversion Beamer when you're in the transport or in melee (and that's really where the Lernaeans want to be :) ). Their WS5 is very interesting and you want to capitalize on that.

If running 10 on Foot, to me the Conversion Beamer works the same as if you were equipping an Autocannon on footslogging Terminators, except it's more expensive and a bit unwieldy. S10, S8 then S6 Blasts are interesting but it's really an unwieldy weapon and I really have trouble picturing the Alpha Legion with a battle line of Terminators personally :p

 

If in a Land Raider, you'd get more mileage out of the Plasma Blaster, but I'd rather not spend the points on it and keep to melee upgrades ;)

[d@n]

By the time they outflank a lot of army's will be in your deployment zone and I like the idea of plonking a couple of conversion beamers in my opponents backfield. Against army's like world eater who charge forward at you or Raven guard who are all going to infiltrate or orbital strike army's.

[GreyCrow]

By the time they outflank a lot of army's will be in your deployment zone and I like the idea of plonking a couple of conversion beamers in my opponents backfield. Against army's like world eater who charge forward at you or Raven guard who are all going to infiltrate or orbital strike army's.

 

Trust me, you'd rather charge the units nearby your Outflank area to tickle them with WS5 Power Fists rather than lobbing a Conversion Beamer shot at some other unit far away ;)

The Conversion Beamer is cool but a single shot doesn't warrant investing 500 points of units in it ^^

[d@n]

My point is it's not a case of either or you can still run around smashing things with powerfist.rather you send a hard as nails terminator squad to take out all the squishy stuff your oponent is hiding in his backfield and once they are gone, rather then having them stuck miles away from the action with nothing to do you can sit them on an your opponents home objective and and blast contemptor in the rear armour, if you take out one contemptor you have paid for your 2 conversion beamers 3x over.

[Terminus]

Outflanking a Spartan is a horrible idea, even worse than most of GreyCrow's flights of fancy. :P

 

You're going to sink half your points in a big tough unit, and then take them off the board for an unknown amount of turns? May as well an assault ram.

[d@n]

Take skorr as your warlord and strategic genius as your warlord trait if your worried about the Spartan coming on. The Spartan will turn up on turn to 2, 2 out of 3 games, on average.

[Hesh Kadesh]

But then no Dymat because Jealous Command clashes.