Gentlemanloser Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Well... Draigo isn't getting ret-conned, there was an audio book from Black Library which dealt with his battle against Mortarion. Come on guys, its been 2 years now. Daemon Primarchs have weaknesses that a Grey Knight is trained to exploit. Also, the way they describe the battle in the audio book, it was more that Draigo finished the job that Geronitan was in the middle of doing. I'm Geronitan. I've spent my life working towards this showdown with Mortarion. Sacrificed countless lives and worlds to make it happen. Now, there's just one thing left to my masterfully conceived plan. I'll go into battle without my Helmet!!!! That should work!!!! Please Banishment is a ritual that works on everything warp-related, even Greater Daemons. I mean, Angron was banished by a Grey Knight hero on Armageddon, and yet I don't hear a peep out of the usual suspects about that. Didn't that take 100 other battle brothers all channelling thier combined Psychic essence into a single GK to achive. And killed all but 7? Sounds fine. :) Magnus was banished once when Rangar threw a magical spear into his eye. Weird double standard, that some choose to only moan about one specific banishment, when there are other very well-known examples of Primarchs getting defeated. The wolves again. Those Dudes who make Weapons out of Daemon Weapons, and behead Grey Knight Grand Masters without repercussion. Because, reasons? I'm surprised they've not bought the Emperor back to life yet by plugging the Throne into a barrel of ale... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Banishment is a ritual that works on everything warp-related, even Greater Daemons. I mean, Angron was banished by a Grey Knight hero on Armageddon, and yet I don't hear a peep out of the usual suspects about that. Didn't that take 100 other battle brothers all channelling thier combined Psychic essence into a single GK to achive. And killed all but 7? Sounds fine. Do we have a definitive number as to how many knights were accompanying Geronitan and Draigo? I'm assuming it was a significant force. They wouldn't have just been going for a stroll down the park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I don't know if anyone has run the numbers yet (and if so, I apologize), but if the leaked point values from the glitch in the Space Wolves army builder are accurate, then the list in the White Dwarf comes to 1579 total points: Librarian 155 pts Five Grey Knights 137 pts Five Grey Knights 137 pts Ten Grey Knights 254 pts Five Grey Knight Terminators 191 pts Dreadnought 145 pts Dreadnought 145 pts Dreadknight 215 pts This means that either the leaked point values are incorrect or that there are 87 points worth of options not listed in the leaked army builder. Psybolt ammo? Something else? That could very well be the point cost. The WD team usually don't worry about points and just throw a bunch of units together that they think are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I don't know if anyone has run the numbers yet (and if so, I apologize), but if the leaked point values from the glitch in the Space Wolves army builder are accurate, then the list in the White Dwarf comes to 1579 total points: Librarian 155 pts Five Grey Knights 137 pts Five Grey Knights 137 pts Ten Grey Knights 254 pts Five Grey Knight Terminators 191 pts Dreadnought 145 pts Dreadnought 145 pts Dreadknight 215 pts This means that either the leaked point values are incorrect or that there are 87 points worth of options not listed in the leaked army builder. Psybolt ammo? Something else? That could very well be the point cost. The WD team usually don't worry about points and just throw a bunch of units together that they think are cool. There was at least one relic in the list, although we don't know what it does at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exile Noctis Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Maybe one of the relics is an army wide choice for Psyammo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvin the wraithlord Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 na surely not, if that was the case it would be a must take in pretty much every game and would have to cost a good number of points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 na surely not, if that was the case it would be a must take in pretty much every game and would have to cost a good number of points Agreed. I think it'll be either a blanket upgrade/ability, or it'll just simply be removed completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lt051 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I wouldn't be suprised if psybolt ammo is changed to affect invulnerable saves, or maybe ap value or both. If it is an army wide rule, no way I stays the same as the current iteration, that would be hilariously op unless our pont costs go up accordingly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Probably have to pass a psychic test to activate psybolts... I wonder if any units at all now have personal powers? Such as purgation squads astral aim and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I'd very much doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Probably have to pass a psychic test to activate psybolts... I wonder if any units at all now have personal powers? Such as purgation squads astral aim and such. Oh Emperor I hope so, casting Hammerhand every turn kinda gets boring after a while. The free appetizer of the codex says that each grey knight is a master of the warp with an ability that surpasses librarians of other chapters. That to me says new powers! Although I'm optimistically skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Probably have to pass a psychic test to activate psybolts... I wonder if any units at all now have personal powers? Such as purgation squads astral aim and such. Oh Emperor I hope so, casting Hammerhand every turn kinda gets boring after a while. The free appetizer of the codex says that each grey knight is a master of the warp with an ability that surpasses librarians of other chapters. That to me says new powers! Although I'm optimistically skeptical. The GK Datacards offered in the last White Dwarf specifically stated they only included the Sanctic Daemonology cards and some Strategic Objective cards. No cards for new powers, so I'd be extremely surprised if there were any new powers in the codex. I would NOT be surprised, however, if there was some kind of immunity to perils when casting Sanctic powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 On a fluff note, can we please have not slaughtered the Sisters, we did not need extra help in not turning. We are the Grey Knights, we do not turn from the Emperors Light. We may slaughter star systems to keep the rest of the Imperium safe, but we do not paint innocents blood all over our armour to help us defeat a tide of blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deamon Wolf Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 i quite liked that bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I'm Geronitan. I've spent my life working towards this showdown with Mortarion. Sacrificed countless lives and worlds to make it happen. Now, there's just one thing left to my masterfully conceived plan. I'll go into battle without my Helmet!!!! That should work!!!! Please Haha, well in the artwork and in plenty of battle scenes, Marine characters do battle without helms. I believe in some of the Horus Heresy novels they even make fun of the trope. Rule of cool dude ;) Didn't that take 100 other battle brothers all channelling thier combined Psychic essence into a single GK to achive. And killed all but 7? Sounds fine. Nope. Read 'Emperor's Gift' again. Taremar Aurellian fights Angron alone, whilst his brothers die around him fending off the 12 Bloodthirsters in the Primarch's retinue. They're too busy fighting for their lives to channel anything. That's why that battle is so awesome and kinda defines what the Knights are created to do. Taremar was the only one of them who stood even the ghost of a chance of banishing Angron, and he did it all alone, and had to give up his life in the attempt. Also, Hyperion (at that point just a lowly Interceptor Knight) broke Angron's blade with telekinesis. It came close to killing him in doing so, but it was all him (his brothers were either dead or incapacitated, he did it to stop the blade from killing his last squad mate). This is what I mean. 'Emperor's Gift' is 100% accepted by the Grey Knights community, its canon, and no one says boo. But Draigo, the future leader of the Chapter and a rising star, finishes off Mortarion after Geronitan gave his life weakening the traitor Primarch, and we're all 'omg Ward is a butcher of the fluff!1!!!'. It's silly, and my favourite aspect of this double standard is how no one bothers to remember that the Ruinous Powers won, when it comes to Draigo. The most powerful battle-psyker in the Imperium, a warrior and leader whose deeds could save the human race, is trapped in the warp for eternity, fighting Tzeentch's battles for him. The humbling of Mortarion (who isn't dead remember, just temporarily banished) pales in comparison to that victory. The wolves again. Those Dudes who make Weapons out of Daemon Weapons, and behead Grey Knight Grand Masters without repercussion. Because, reasons? I'm surprised they've not bought the Emperor back to life yet by plugging the Throne into a barrel of ale... Again, reading 'Emperor's Gift' would be helpful. Logan Grimnar spells out in clear Gothic why he's going to behead Joros moments before he does it. He has the moral high ground, revenge and the status of Chapter Master (not to mention his unbroken record of valour and honour) to defend his actions. Also, from his perspective, things are already so far gone that the Inquisition wants him dead already, just for the sheer act of defying them at Armageddon. The Knights aren't going to exact vengeance, because they know they were in the wrong, and nothing is to be gained from petty vengeance (unlike the Inquisitors they reluctantly serve, who plot against the Wolves to this day). Well, the Axe Morkai has been purified by the Rune Priests, but yeah technically its a Chaos relic. Same goes for the Gauntlets of Ultramar, they're the wargear of a Khorne Champion, but presumably they've been purified by the Ultramarines Librarians as well. Double standards abound in the Imperium. Also, its very unlikely the Inquisition could ever prosecture either Chapter; the former has proven impossible to bring to heel, and the latter wields such influence over the other Chapters (not to mention it has its own pocket empire within the Impeirum)....you do the math. On a fluff note, can we please have not slaughtered the Sisters, we did not need extra help in not turning. We are the Grey Knights, we do not turn from the Emperors Light. We may slaughter star systems to keep the rest of the Imperium safe, but we do not paint innocents blood all over our armour to help us defeat a tide of blood. Well if you read the actual entry in our 5th edition codex, you'd realise why it was justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Preordered today. Empra have mercy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 On a fluff note, can we please have not slaughtered the Sisters, we did not need extra help in not turning. We are the Grey Knights, we do not turn from the Emperors Light. We may slaughter star systems to keep the rest of the Imperium safe, but we do not paint innocents blood all over our armour to help us defeat a tide of blood. http://epistle.us/inspiration/godwillsaveme.html Just because you're uncorruptable doesn't mean you don't take steps to ensure that remains the case. How do you think we became uncorruptable in the first place. Bolters will work for a short time, then the rites of reloading must be performed, otherwise the machine spirit will become angered and the bolter will no longer expel canisters of death from its opening at the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I agree totally. God works in strange ways? Nope, obvious ways mostly, we just don't see them. The Grey Knights have been protected and tempered over 10,000 years, yet in 876.M41 they needed to slaughter the innocent to anoint their armour with a talisman to shield themselves from a deamon curse? A Talisman is an object which is believed to contain magical or sacramental properties which provide the possessor, or possibly offer, protection from evil or harm. I get the reference and I get the idea, I even agree with the idea that the Grey Knights will do anything to stop the Deamonic, but it just does not sit well with me that the most potent, protected, prepared warriors of the Imperium needed a little extra belief to defeat a deamonic curse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 "lots of very salient stuff" While you make a lot of very good points, particularly about the hypocrisy and bandwagoning of the Grey Knights fanbase, I totally disagree about the Wolves and the Inquisition. The Space Wolves were totally in the wrong, and I think ADB made a mistake by painting them into such a corner. If I were in the Inquisition, the Wolves would have been Excommunicate Traitorus, and the Fang subject to Exterminatus before the days end. No one just gets to execute an Inquisitor because they feel like it and then get away with it. It's like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket and instead of contesting the fine because you were in the right, you shoot the policeman instead. And then the whole thing gets brushed under the carpet because some old Dreadnaught tells them a story? I haven't read it for a while, but I like to imagine that Bjorn managed to convince Logan to surrender in the face of annihilation. Whether that was the case or not, I don't remember, but even if they did surrender I think they got off far too lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The thing about the Battle with Angron is that it is very well written, both the original entry by Graham McNeil, and in Emperor's Gift by ADB. To me it's never been the issue that Draigo killed Mortarion, it's how it's presented in the book. Draigo defeating a daemon Primarch and then abusing his corpse gets...a sentence. I've not read the novella version of that battle, but to me that was a good step in the right direction. Draigo's background entry in the codex just isn't very well written, it reads like someone describing the deeds of their favourite RPG character....badly When I was first made a battle brother I killed the Daemon Prince M'Kar Then I killed a primarch and cut my predecessors name into his heart! Then I killed M'Kar again! He tried to drag me into the warp but I survived! Then in the warp I killed the great Bloodthirster Kar'goth! Then I burnt down Nurgle's garden! Then survived temptation by Slannesh's favoured servants! Then destroyed an entire city and killed a Lord of Change! There's no reason that any of those couldn't be an awesome 40k story with a good central character, who, like Alaric and Hyperion (Alaric especially) overcomes great odds and sacrifices much to achieve victory. But when you just write down a list of awesome things Draigo has done it comes across as childish. Just a stream of 'And Then I Did This...' Obviously there isn't enough room to in the codex to write down the full story, but they would have done much better to go into one or two encounters in greater detail, rather than casually list all the near-impossible things Draigo did. Show the courage, the sacrifice, the emotion of the battle like in the descriptions of the battle against Angron, not just make it seem like you grabbed a stupendously powerful daemon prince out of thin air to prove how awesome this new character and describe it with a throw away line that, when published, made the battle seem trivial. And then put it alongside a bunch of other encounters just as epic in scope that were also trivialised by giving them no elaboration. Lots of great 40k stories have their characters involved in impossible battles, and over-coming impossible odds, but they all respect the material and make the time to describe it well, the villains are given character, the battle given scope and the lengths these heroes go to and the sacrifices they make expressed in the prose. Is that hard to do in a page or two of codex? Yes, yes it is. But Games Workshop has the best background of any game system, and it deserves better than abysmal entries like Draigo, even if that means leaving some of his accomplishments on the editing room floor to fit in one encounter that suns up the character while still respecting the apocolyptically powerful foe he's fighting and the Grim Darkness of the setting he is in. Now in order not to be entriely negative: One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One final blade, forged in defiance of fate, Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered, And my final gift to the species I failed. Pure. Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The Grey Knights have been protected and tempered over 10,000 years, yet in 876.M41 they needed to slaughter the innocent to anoint their armour with a talisman to shield themselves from a deamon curse? They were fighting a threat they'd never encountered before. The Bloodtide is a pretty unique superweapon, its only been found once before in the established canon. As I've repeatedly mentioned, the Sister's blood was necessary as a buffer, nothing more. The Knights just had to get close to the Bloodthirster to banish it, and the Bloodtide+daemon still killed a bunch of them anyway (it wasn't a perfect defense, nothing is). Knights use sorcery of all kinds as part of their job, blood magick is just another tool in their arsenal. I get the reference and I get the idea, I even agree with the idea that the Grey Knights will do anything to stop the Deamonic, but it just does not sit well with me that the most potent, protected, prepared warriors of the Imperium needed a little extra belief to defeat a deamonic curse. Knights die all the time in combat with daemons. Aegis plate only protects up to a certain point, as do their tattoos, training and gene-seed. Daemons can still kill them, even as repellent as they are. Knights use the same power that creates daemons to send them back. Using blood to fight a nano-weapon that feeds on blood makes sense for the same reasons. While you make a lot of very good points, particularly about the hypocrisy and bandwagoning of the Grey Knights fanbase, I totally disagree about the Wolves and the Inquisition. The Space Wolves were totally in the wrong, and I think ADB made a mistake by painting them into such a corner. If I were in the Inquisition, the Wolves would have been Excommunicate Traitorus, and the Fang subject to Exterminatus before the days end. No one just gets to execute an Inquisitor because they feel like it and then get away with it. It's like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket and instead of contesting the fine because you were in the right, you shoot the policeman instead. And then the whole thing gets brushed under the carpet because some old Dreadnaught tells them a story? Two things. Firstly, we're talking about a First Founding Chapter (or more accurately, a Legion, as they never were that large to begin with), whose loyalty has never been in question and who are widely respected and loved by the people of the Imperium. The Space Wolves are heroes and justly so, and it would be extremely difficult politically to sanction them, much less destroy them. Logan himself is more famous than most Chapter Masters, is widely liked and respected by his peers in the Adeptus Astartes, and is renowned as a leader who genuinely cares about humanity. If he were assassinated, the Adeptus Astartes would take extreme action against the Inquisition agents involved. Secondly, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is a living legend of the Imperium. He had the wisdom that Logan lacked, namely that some things are bigger than honour. His deal with the Inquisition is simple; never come to Fenris again, and the Wolves will cease taking vengeance upon the Inquisition. Doesn't stop the Inquisition plotting against the Wolves, or otherwise hindering them (in the book they mutter about not sending battlefleet support in the event of another Chaos invasion of Fenris). I haven't read it for a while, but I like to imagine that Bjorn managed to convince Logan to surrender in the face of annihilation. Whether that was the case or not, I don't remember, but even if they did surrender I think they got off far too lightly. Yeah basically. He teleports aboard the Inquisition flagship, just as Logan is about to kill Hyperion and the remaining Inquisitors (the Inquisitor Lord who ordered the attack on Fenris is already dead by Logan's hand by that point). He brokers a truce with the surviving Inquisition and Red Hunters forces, thus saving the Wolves from annihilation and the Inquisition from an ugly war with the Adeptus Astartes as a whole. Lots of great 40k stories have their characters involved in impossible battles, and over-coming impossible odds, but they all respect the material and make the time to describe it well, the villains are given character, the battle given scope and the lengths these heroes go to and the sacrifices they make expressed in the prose. Is that hard to do in a page or two of codex? Yes, yes it is. But Games Workshop has the best background of any game system, and it deserves better than abysmal entries like Draigo, even if that means leaving some of his accomplishments on the editing room floor to fit in one encounter that suns up the character while still respecting the apocolyptically powerful foe he's fighting and the Grim Darkness of the setting he is in. To be fair, I think Draigo's lengthy background entry in the 5th edition does exactly that. Remember, his accomplishments were all in his early life, before he became the leader of the Knights. Since he was trapped by M'Kar (or more accurately by Tzeentch), all of his deeds in the warp mean precisely nothing. Khorne always has more champions, Nurgle's garden grows back anyway, Slannesh can always make more handmaidens, and Tzeentch's palace re-makes itself all the time. That's the real message of Draigo's tale; no matter how hard the Knights fight, no matter what victories they claw out of the galaxy with their sacrifice, its all for nothing. The Imperium is destined to lose, and Chaos will ascend on humanity's broken bones. One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One final blade, forged in defiance of fate, Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered, And my final gift to the species I failed. Pure. Awesome. Agreed. And the Knights are ultimately an act of defiance, not of any final victory. They're just 1000 sworn brothers, they can only hold back the tide for so long. Eventually, they'll die at Terra drowning in traitors and warpspawn, and it'll come down to Emperor vs Abbadon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I am sorry I might got lost in the fluff arguments ... is there anything that is known that GK's might be getting in the upcoming codex? (besides fluff twist...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Apart from the new relics I am not aware of any new options, and we can be pretty certain that there are no new units in the codex as there are no new kits. I imagine most of the codex is tidying things up, adjusting points costs and cutting down on the number of wargear options like many of the previous 7th ed and 6th ed codexes have done. There's honestly not too much to be excited over, the points costs look to match up the same but I imagine the basic army won't really change. Pure Grey Knights will only need the new dex, whereas comboing with Coteaz will require the Inq dex. Librarian getting cheaper gives up a cheap HQ option which was needed with the inquisitors going. I'm a little disappointed that there's no new kits or units, but given that GW seems to have decided to accelerate the codex release schedule to fit every army in before new edition I don't feel I have a right to complain too much. Making new kits is expensive and time consuming and players have been wanting GW to speed up the release schedule for years. The price of that speeding up was always going to be some releases that didn't give you awesome new toys to play with, just new rules for the old ones. That pill is made rather more bitter with Inquisition and Assassins being split off and being charged quite a bit to get hold of at the same time, meaning someone who fielded an army with an Inquisitor and an Assassin as well as grey knights will need to fork over nearly $70 to get the new rules for his models. If this is a pattern for the future (I can see Necrons and Blood Angels getting a very similar 'just codex and cards' release) I kind of wish they had left Grey Knights for later and made some time to come up with a new kit to make up for losing Inq and Assassin rules all at once, but then I don't know what their schedule looks like for the near future. Pricing aside I am actually a fan of the split off Inquisition and Assassins, I like that other forces can more easily and distinctly take them and that the Grey Knight Codex is pure Grey Knights. It's just made for a rather underwhelming release his time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 " Knights die all the time in combat with daemons. Aegis plate only protects up to a certain point, as do their tattoos, training and gene-seed. Daemons can still kill them, even as repellent as they are. Knights use the same power that creates daemons to send them back. Using blood to fight a nano-weapon that feeds on blood makes sense for the same reasons. " - Reclusiarch Darius. A good point, well put. I had not thought of it like that. I guess I got caught up in how awsome the GK are. But yes, they were the Emperors final "go away you" to the chaos forces he had bartered with, then double crossed. So yes, they will fall, they have enemies imeasurably more powerful than anything else the universe can throw at them so I can understand them needing a little help every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 They didn't use the Sisters Blood to, not die. GKs die all the time. They used the Sister Blood so the Bloodtide would not corrupt them. GKs are never corrupted. That's the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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