[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Brother Captain Spud]

Stone gauntlet works a treat if ypu are also running other units with sheilds (ie templars or terminators). I also use an apothecarion detachment and run 3 apothecaries. The +1T and FNP combo makes them super survivable.

 

Seeing all the comments people make about 1500 or 2000 pt lists confuses me a bit as I've always been under the impression that HH games were meant to be played 2500+.

[Lord Blackwood]

Templar combat shields do not benefit from the + Toughness of stone gauntlet its only boarding shields and storm shields 

An apothecaries  tend not to mean anything to Vindicators  or an even harder counter that I love  the Typhon   since it will negate yer feel no pain by doubling you out anyway and yer praying your shield will  save you. 

T5 Terminators with a 3++  are nice sure , but getting them into combat requires a Spartan ( which admittedly is not a terrible way to deliver them but at that point yer lookin at 500 ish points of your list in one unit  +  whatever character goes with them , and remember regular apothecaries cannot so if you want a primus med  in that unit your looking at 2 characters plus the unit plus the spartan  )  

Stone Gauntlet can work sure ,  I just find it not to be a good rite of war  outside of ZM  where the bonuses are more noticeable due to the restrictions involved. 

[Brother Captain Spud]

Combat sheilds and boarding sheilds are treated the same except boarding sheilds don't get the extra cc attack for a weapon in each hand. See pg 263 in betrayal.

 

This is the thin about stone gauntlet, you need to build your all your infantry around sheilds.

[Slips]

Sadly, at this point in time, Betrayal is pretty (read: very) outdated so isn't all that accurate though the same passage can be found in LA: AoDAL.

 

That said, while both share the same passage, only one is specifically called out in the RoW: The Boarding Shield.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Lord Blackwood]

Sadly, at this point in time, Betrayal is pretty (read: very) outdated so isn't all that accurate though the same passage can be found in LA: AoDAL.

 

That said, while both share the same passage, only one is specifically called out in the RoW: The Boarding Shield.

This ^ 

 

Templars Dont get the toughness bonus ,  I was disappointed  when I found out as well.  

 

Not to mention like I  said the paltry invul save is not going to be great against the stuff that will be hunting those units.  

 

Vindicators/typhons really really  ruin breachers days if they are out in the open apothecary or not , and  if they are in a raider thats a 500+ point unit that is essentially just marines , AND  cant have the apothecary cause he cant fit in there with them.  

 

I have played a good bit of Stone Gauntlet ( and A LOT of armored Breakthrough )  and I will reiterate SG is very strong in Zone Mortalis , not so great on big tables. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Bladewolf

[Brother Captain Spud]

Incorrect. The RoW calls for boarding or stom shields, and storm shields and combat shields are the same thing rules wise.

[Slips]

Then answer me this: If they are the same, why is one specifically called out as being eligible to grant a unit equipped with them the benefits of the RoW and the other is omitted? If it was meant to be eligible, then why not make mention of it to avoid possible confusion?

 

Its the same reason why IF Terminators, per RAW, cannot have Storm Shields and Tartaros TDA. While Tartaros Terminator Armour is TDA for pretty much all rules purposes, it itself isn't called out as an eligible option in the Vigil Pattern Storm Shields entry.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Lord Blackwood]

They arent even the same thing. 

One allows you to retain  an extra attack in  close combat while the other does not. 

One is a giant slab / tower shield and the other is a buckler type shield / small kite shield.

Not to mention  They have two different names and are two DIFFERENT pieces of wargear which are differentiated from each other with their rules. 

They are not the same thing. 

[Slips]

I'd Honestly LOVE Templar and Command Squads with Combat Shields to be T5 in an SG Army but thats just not the case.

 

It would also open the doors for T6 Combat Shield Equipped Bike HQ's and Command Squads which is definitely not what was intended.

[Lord Blackwood]

Man ,  that would have me buying 6 jetbikes with the quickness.

[Brother Captain Spud]

But you cannot equip jetbikes with shields.

 

And if they are totally different why are they in the same wargear list entry whereas storm shields dont feature at all.

[Slips]

But you cannot equip jetbikes with shields.

 

And if they are totally different why are they in the same wargear list entry whereas storm shields dont feature at all.

Jet Bike Command Squads totally can take Combat Shields which is what was said.

 

Because the Vigil Pattern Storm Shield isn't available to all legions and thus not found in the generic wargear list; Its Imperial Fists Only and found on their page in the relevant book containing their Legion Rules, Wargear and Units.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Brother Captain Spud]

Really? is that RAW or your interpretation? (I'm not being facetious, i just don't have my red book to review as im in hospital on morphine)

 

I'm not really phased as its an unclear rule and my gaming group's interpretation is shields = +1T for fists with stone gauntlet, and we're happy with taht till FW say otherwise.

[Slips]

Its RaW: Command Squads not in TDA can buy a Combat Shield. A Command Squad also not in TDA can buy a Bike, Jetbike or Jump Packs.

 

Therefore, a Jetbike Command Squad can buy Combat Shields.

[Lord Blackwood]

Then you  and yer friends are houseruling a thing that runs counter to the way  the game is intended to be played. 

But thats cool , D:   now you can make your gaming group pay for  it by running stone gauntlet with T5  templar brethren 

Who , still get roasted by Vindicators and Typhons with no feel no pain save 

But cost MORE  points !  so .... yay ?  

I mean if you have  Sigismund tank for them thats pretty cool though cause hes great! 

Even at 2500 points , if yer rolling  SG  your looking at 1000 points in troops if you give em raiders and appropriate equipment 

OR 

You are footslogging about 1100 points of T5 models who are prey to vindicator squads denying them armor and feel no pain and praying that you can roll magic invuls. 

Were going to assume Templar Brethren  / Terminators are gonna also be rocking a Raider / Spartan  

So 3 units of Infantry   are looking to be something like 1500 points of yer 2500 list   then  you add HQs so  1500 + a 200 (preator ) or 230 Sigismund  +  150 ish primus   for a total of 1850 ~ 1880 ... and you dont really have much in the way of support unit options  cause im going to assume again that you aint trying to run both and in both cases its not like yer rolling deep  with your assault unit were working on the low side with like 5 termis here and only a handful of brethren.    

Footslogging them just makes them slow and fair game to superior shooting

And you ARE NOT footslogging assault units , You cant deep strike anything in SG soooo 

SG is just not a great Rite  just like  Hammerfall  it seems great !  but its really not workable in environments where people are playing to win games.  



 

[Brother Captain Spud]

Its RaW: Command Squads not in TDA can buy a Combat Shield. A Command Squad also not in TDA can buy a Bike, Jetbike or Jump Packs.

 

Therefore, a Jetbike Command Squad can buy Combat Shields.

This is an interpretation. Not RAW.

 

And its not houseruling if there is differing interpretations of a rule. Its just an agreed interpretation.

 

Houseruling would be agreeing something explicitly ruled out in the rules.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Brother Captain Spud

[Lord Blackwood]

um .... No  its rules as written 

page 27 of the redbook , left hand side 

any member of a legion command squad may take a combat shield 

Then further down on the same page 

if the squads legion praetor has either a jump pack , space marine bike  or jetbike , then the legion command squad may  also be identically equipped for the cost shown below if any of these options are taken the squad may no longer take a dedicated transport and every member of the squad must be identically upgraded. 

Its rules as written , there is no interpretation about it. 


also you  can continue to duck the fact that even playing the way yer group  does ( improperly )  the rite is still not effective 

YOU  DO YOU FAM D:  

Edited January 5, 2017 by Bladewolf

[Brother Captain Spud]

And this is why combat shields dont get the +1T? Because jetbikes would become T6?

[Lord Blackwood]

No they dont get +1 T because  on page 28 of the New  Istvaan Legions Redbook the pertinent rule reads as such. 

Resolve of Stone:  Any model in the detachment with the Legiones Astartes  ( Imperial Fists )  special rule equipped with either a BOARDING SHIELD  or STORM  SHIELD  who is in unit coherency with at least two other models who also fit these criteria gain +1 bonus to their toughness. Notice that a Combat shield is not mentioned. 

Furthermore ( and amusingly enough ) 

This bonus may not be claimed if the unit the model is part of has made either a Run  move , a CHARGE move  or a sweeping advance in the current player turn. 

So your Templar Brethren ( and Terminators )  wouldn't even get the bonus  when fighting in close combat  ( which is really where they are supposed to be)  

Edited January 5, 2017 by Bladewolf

[Brother Captain Spud]

No they dont get +1 T because on page 28 of the New Istvaan Legions Redbook the pertinent rule reads as such.

 

Resolve of Stone: Any model in the detachment with the Legiones Astartes ( Imperial Fists ) special rule equipped with either a BOARDING SHIELD or STORM SHIELD who is in unit coherency with at least two other models who also fit these criteria gain +1 bonus to their toughness. Notice that a Combat shield is not mentioned.

 

Furthermore ( and amusingly enough )

 

This bonus may not be claimed if the unit the model is part of has made either a Run move , a CHARGE move or a sweeping advance in the current player turn.

 

So your Templar Brethren ( and Terminators ) wouldn't even get the bonus when fighting in close combat ( which is really where they are supposed to be)

Ok. Fortunately we're not in the same playing group. I see your point but given the combat shield doesnt have a differnt warger profile we dont view it as a totally separate thing. Happy to agree to disagree.

 

The T5 is useful for when shot at or surviving being charged. Most units don't survive being charged by a full complement of templars though.

 

Its ok if i like the RoW.

[Lord Blackwood]

This is a Tactics thread 

In this thread we discuss things that work and dont work so that people trying to get better and win games will be able to do so without pointlessly spending money on things they dont need. 

---------------------------------

We do so using the generally accepted understanding of the rules. 

I understand maybe you  dont want to go through 49 pages of this thread where  the topic of the Stone Gauntlets merits and weaknesses are brought up and that is fine. 

The smart money says  , gauntlet while fluffy  and a beautiful little snowflake  is not a terribly effective rite of war due to the taxes it imposes.  It offers less than other options.  
---------------------------------------------------

To your First point  that your group reads Combat Shields and Breacher shields to be the same : Thats great , its wrong (insofar as no one else plays it that way because its a ludicrous interpretation )  but its great for you. 

Even IF  this is the case , it does next to NOTHING to mitigate the weaknesses of SG 

SG  can be useful in situations where you need to sit on  something , in a games of high point value so you can justify the wastefulness of rolling breachers  

EVEN  THEN 

You will get more mileage with other rites  /  rolling other things  

If you  are so dead set on  running it and yer boys are down with that , well  awesome , but its not going to help  anyone when the crux of your argument is  so counter to the way those TWO peices of wargear are viewed by the wider community. 

Furthermore if yer gonna believe anything you should believe what Slips tells you about rules , cause the guy has a tremendous amount of play experience and even before he was a mod he hes always been big in here helping people out myself included. 

[Brother Captain Spud]

Ok.

 

If stone gauntlet is no good (which i still have a right to disagree with), I'll admit its biggest benefit comes in high points games thouhg where the cost of breachers is less of an issue. What would you recommend?

 

Honestly I'm not trolling, im just in a hospital bed using warhams threads as a pleasant distraction.

[Zopha]

 

Ok. Fortunately we're not in the same playing group. I see your point but given the combat shield doesnt have a differnt warger profile we dont view it as a totally separate thing. Happy to agree to disagree.

 

The T5 is useful for when shot at or surviving being charged. Most units don't survive being charged by a full complement of templars though.

 

Its ok if i like the RoW.

 

 

Doesn't it have a different wargear profile? One gives the unit defensive grenades and the other one counts as an additional close combat weapon. The only shared part of the wargear profile is the invulnerable save.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Zopha

[Lord Blackwood]

I  would probably wrap everything in heavy armor , id run the big breacher squads with apothecaries in spartans.   Or small squads of 10 in Raiders with two grav guns or two melta guns 

Then I would absolutely have an big terminator assault unit with a fair number of shields to keep the buff  rolling.  With a character on board or two  ( it would be a bit of a big target so I  would likely want something equally threatening on the back end in my lord of war slot ) 

Then I would try and squeeze every bit of fire support out of the rest of my points  And roll my armor down my opponents throat letting the breachers out of their raiders to score to contest  


Though I dont think its a feasible tactic atleast the way I would play it. 



As far as how to properly run it , Slips will likely have a better bit of advice than me 

I can see it working in heavy gunline ,  with a strong enough fortification and  some artillery to back it up. 


Its a rough go of things with SG  since it sort of lends itself more to a more defensive playstyle , since you effectively give up the best bonus when you wanna run and punch someone in the mouth.  

I saw in your other thread youll be working on a mastadon when you get out of the hospital ( get well soon by the way )    Maybe you could work  something with that Slips will have better advice XD   I am certain 

[Brother Captain Spud]

 

 

Ok. Fortunately we're not in the same playing group. I see your point but given the combat shield doesnt have a differnt warger profile we dont view it as a totally separate thing. Happy to agree to disagree.

 

The T5 is useful for when shot at or surviving being charged. Most units don't survive being charged by a full complement of templars though.

 

Its ok if i like the RoW.

 

Doesn't it have a different wargear profile? One gives the unit defensive grenades and the other one counts as an additional close combat weapon. The only shared part of the wargear profile is the invulnerable save.

Combat sheilds don't count as a cc weapon, they allow the user to hold one. Read the eagear entry in the red or black books.

 

Anyway this is why lawyers exist in the real-world, to interpret the rules (legislation).

 

I think this discussion has gotten to aggressive for me.