[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Zopha]

 

Combat sheilds don't count as a cc weapon, they allow the user to hold one. Read the eagear entry in the red or black books.

 

Anyway this is why lawyers exist in the real-world, to interpret the rules (legislation).

 

I think this discussion has gotten to aggressive for me.

 

 

Ah, my apologies, I see that now. That's what I get for trying to read with a migraine.

[Caillum]

@Brother Captain Spud, Page 131 of "Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List" eBook version:

 

"Combat shields and boarding shields confer a 6+ invulnerable save, increasing to 5+ in close combat. A model equipped with a boarding shield also counts as being equipped with defensive grenades. Boarding shields however are far heavier and more cumbersome than combat shields and models equipped with them cannot claim the extra attack for being armed with an additional close combat weapon."

 

They're different pieces of wargear, as stipulated by the differences in their rules. Combat shields do not, in any way, "count as" boarding shields.

 

As for Stone Gauntlet, having faced it a fair bit, I agree with you (and disagree with the general consensus) and think it is a strong Rite of War! T5 Breachers and Storm Shield Terminators? Yes please! The issue is that it is restrictive:

- no Deep Strike means no Drop Pods of any kind, and they are an awesome Alpha Strike delivery system.

- balancing Fast Attack & Elite units with Troops units is hard when you want the previously mentioned SS Terminators.

- Breachers are fun, but not an optimal unit. This RoW makes them usable though.

 

IMHO, Dorn absolutely makes this RoW:

- he makes Terminators Troops (helping the balancing act),

- all units have Ld10 (helping their defensive nature),

- he buffs all units' combat resolution by D3 (meaning they're more likely to win combat).

He's also a beatstick character with a TONNE of S6/7 AP2 Shred attacks. Not a Horus or Guilliman, but still gonna kill any non-Primarch character out there (and before anyone says it, Scoria is basically a Primarch).

 

So dude, if you want to run it, you won't see me teling you it sucks! :) Bladewolf has given you some solid advice just now, so I'd take that on. I would go for Dorn and some SS Terminators in a Spartan, 2 x 10 Breachers with meltaguns in Land Raiders (your choice of variant) and a lascannon or autocannon Heavy Support Squad in a Bunker.

 

Good luck man!

[Jensvdb]

combine that with an allowed fortification and get T5 breachers with 2+ cover rerolling 1 when going to ground

[Withershadow]

How does that work, exactly? Breachers have the worst version of hardened armor, so don't reroll cover saves. Only Auxilia and the Nemean Reaver can pull that off.

 

And yes, the discussion of last two pages has been ludicrous. A combat shield is a shield, but it's not a boarding shield. The Rite specifies boarding shields. I do think a lot of discussion on this forum is muddled by house rules. I feel like I want a morphine IV too now. Anyway...

 

Can't Sigismund put up a decent fight against big poppa?

[Slips]

Dorn lets you choose 3 pieces of terrain to grant re-rolls of 1 to cover and pinning.

 

Anyways if deadset on running TSG id possibly go with the following though what you use to fill up troops slot its pretty nebulous. I just went with combi cataphractii so that theyre annoying to remove but will be slow as hell.

 

Shave points where necessary to insert Fortifications of which 30 are still free.

 

 

+++ Stone Gauntlet (Warhammer 30,000 - The Horus Heresy v42) (3970pts) +++

 

++ The Age of Darkness (Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List v202) (3970pts) ++

 

+ HQ (310pts) +

 

········Legion Centurion (155pts) [Chainfist, Tartaros Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Vigil Pattern Storm Shield]

············Consul [siege Breaker]

 

········Legion Centurion (155pts) [solarite Power Gauntlet, Tartaros Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Vigil Pattern Storm Shield]

············Consul

················Primus Medicae [support Officer]

 

+ Elites (860pts) +

 

········Apothecarion Detachment (140pts)

············Legion Apothecary

················Additional Wargear [Artificer Armour, Augury Scanner, Power Sword]

················Standard Wargear [bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Narthecium, Power Armour]

············Legion Apothecary

················Additional Wargear [Artificer Armour, Augury Scanner, Power Sword]

················Standard Wargear [bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Narthecium, Power Armour]

 

········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (270pts) [3x Legion Rapier, Phosphex Canister Shot, Shatter Shell]

 

········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (270pts) [3x Legion Rapier, Phosphex Canister Shot, Shatter Shell]

 

········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (180pts) [2x Legion Rapier, Phosphex Canister Shot, Shatter Shell]

 

+ Troops (1700pts) +

 

········Legion Breacher Siege Squad (295pts) [9x Legion Breacher Siege Space Marines]

············Additional Wargear [2x Graviton Gun, Legion Vexilla, Nuncio-vox]

············Legion Breacher Siege Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Bolter, Melta Bombs, Power Fist]

············Standard Wargear [boarding Shields, Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Frag and Krak Grenades, Power Armour]

 

········Legion Breacher Siege Squad (295pts) [9x Legion Breacher Siege Space Marines]

············Additional Wargear [2x Graviton Gun, Legion Vexilla, Nuncio-vox]

············Legion Breacher Siege Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Bolter, Melta Bombs, Power Fist]

············Standard Wargear [boarding Shields, Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Frag and Krak Grenades, Power Armour]

 

········Legion Terminator Squad (870pts) [2x Chainfist, Legion Terminator Squad, 8x Legion Terminators, 6x Power Fist, Tartaros Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, 8x Vigil Pattern Storm Shield]

············Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Dozer Blade, Flare Shield]

············Legion Terminator Sergeant [Power Fist, Vigil Pattern Storm Shield]

 

········Legion Terminator Squad (240pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, 4x Combi-Weapon, Legion Terminator Squad, 4x Legion Terminators, 3x Power Fist]

············Legion Terminator Sergeant [Combi-Weapon, Power Fist]

 

+ Heavy Support (715pts) +

 

········Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought (220pts) [Aiolos Missile Launcher]

 

········Legion Artillery Tank Squadron (495pts)

············Legion Medusa [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Bolter]

············Legion Medusa [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Bolter]

············Legion Medusa [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Bolter]

 

+ Legion +

 

········Legiones Astartes [ VII: Imperial Fists, Loyalist]

 

········Rite of War [The Stone Gauntlet]

 

+ Force Organization +

 

········Force Organization [Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List]

············Battles in the Age of Darkness [ Age of Darkness Primary Detachment]

 

+ Lords of War (385pts) +

 

········Rogal Dorn (385pts) [Master of the Legion, Primarch]

 

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

[Withershadow]

8 Phosphex mortars? You are a bad person. :P

[Slips]

When playing an immobile row, it pays to have devastating shooting :p

 

At least I didint take a MoS to slap onto the mortars to make them BS5 and give 1 squad and Augury Scanner for interceptor.

[Slips]

Also, for the TSG List I posted, forgot about the Consul Limitation.

 

....So. Yeah. No Primus Medicae since you can only have 1 Consul (except for Champions).

[K3nn3rs]

I love the SG RoW - but as Bladewolf has pointed out it's very restrictive and tricky to get to work (I've got a lengthy thread in the army list section highlighting my trials and tribulations).

 

For me, to get SG to work to it's full potential you need T5 units (breachers/ termies with storm shields) AND FnP. Whilst having T5 against S3-S7 great, being able to take FnP rolls against S8 and S9 weapons is where the true value is (especially in close combat).

 

However, this combo increases the 'tax' you pay and further reduces the mobility of the list (you can't squeeze in a 10 man breacher squad and an apothecary into a land raider). Mobility is already limited by the inability to deepstrike.

 

As Bladewolf has said you then need to use what points you haveleft to buy supporting units that will ideally neutralise the main threats of SG units (S10 blasts, etc). If you've taken termies and apothercarys you only have 3 heavy support slots to play with, unless you buy further troop options which further increases the SG 'tax'.

 

These FoC are even more frustrating when looking to utilise consuls - with the exception of Champions you can only take one! I usually go with a Primus Medicae to boost the survivability of my terminators.

 

I think I've got a fairly balanced list nailed down (in the army list section)but I'm taking it to an event knowing it will struggle against ALOT of the builds im likely going to face (unless I get the first turn and some decent luck!)

 

@Brither Captain Spud

It's great that you have a gaming group that is willing to allow you to take combat shields in a SG list to get T5 but it's important for other forum members/ guests to understand that isn't the generally accepted ruling.

 

For what it's worth (and to try and balance out the issue/ accusations of RAW) I'd go so far as saying that if an opponent at an event /pick up game used combat shields to get +1 T I'd be pretty disappointed as it comes across as pretty gamey (please note that I'm in no way accusing you of being gamey).

Edited January 9, 2017 by K3nn3rs

[ronin_cse]

So what do you all usually run as your RoW if not SG?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My favorite is Pride of the Legion as I am not a fan of tactical Marines or Breachers.

[Lord Blackwood]

Armored Breakthrough 
Pride of the Legion 
Primarchs Chosen (  when dorn is released ) 

[Slips]

Pride or Primarchs Chosen, honestly.

 

Our Sniper Bolter vets are BS5, meaning they hit ~16% more than other equivalents at all range brackets their weapons are effective. Being troops means we're taking an actually useful unit in our troops slot that won't be rendered useless by High Toughness Mechanicum units or render their shooting a frustrating exercise in futility vs 2+ saves with FNP.

 

Both RoWs also unlocks generic Terminators as troops which means Storm Shield or Deep Striking Combi Termies as troops. Again, a generally more useful troops choice, imo.

 

Running Dorn without a RoW also just moves Terminators to troops anyways meaning you could easily run him without a RoW and just load up on Terminators.

 

Then theres Sigismund who makes Templar troops for Power Armour murder needs.

 

 

Main issue for IF is that their RoW (Especially Hammerfall) aren't all that great and we make some of the generic ones work better than our own unique ones.

[ronin_cse]

Pride or Primarchs Chosen, honestly.

 

Our Sniper Bolter vets are BS5, meaning they hit ~16% more than other equivalents at all range brackets their weapons are effective. Being troops means we're taking an actually useful unit in our troops slot that won't be rendered useless by High Toughness Mechanicum units or render their shooting a frustrating exercise in futility vs 2+ saves with FNP.

 

Both RoWs also unlocks generic Terminators as troops which means Storm Shield or Deep Striking Combi Termies as troops. Again, a generally more useful troops choice, imo.

 

Running Dorn without a RoW also just moves Terminators to troops anyways meaning you could easily run him without a RoW and just load up on Terminators.

 

Then theres Sigismund who makes Templar troops for Power Armour murder needs.

 

 

Main issue for IF is that their RoW (Especially Hammerfall) aren't all that great and we make some of the generic ones work better than our own unique ones.

 

How well do Templar Brethren do? I was disappointed to read that the Phalanx Warders aren't all that great for their points. Both are great models.

[Slips]

Templar Brethren need an Assault Vehicle. Give them that and point them at anything with a 3+ Save or Worse and/or T5 or Worse and they should murder their way through them.

 

Point them at terminators and the best they can do is speedbump them.

 

Y'know...Power Swords.

 

Still, WS5 with a 2W Champion and 2+/5++ is nice especially coupled with 4A and +1S on the charge thanks to FC. Means that the Champions Ap1 Sol Glove is also S9.

 

Always give them Combat Shields and an apothecary in AA w/ Power Sword where possible (So that he fits in) to give the squad FNP to survive more.

[Zopha]

Storm shields for Cataphractii are coming...

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/01/16/new-kit-for-your-cataphractii-terminators/

 

I was kinda hoping they would make a change and add them for Tartaros.

[Phoenix Darkus]

Yeah, I think that seals the Tartaros/SS debate that's been going on. They would have made a kit for Tartaros armor if it had been available (or at least brought it up in the description). Switching my termies back to Cataphractii...

[Fenbain]

Yeah, I think that seals the Tartaros/SS debate that's been going on. They would have made a kit for Tartaros armor if it had been available (or at least brought it up in the description). Switching my termies back to Cataphractii...

While I agree and have said as much since we saw them at last year's Weekender/Open Day, playing Devil's Advocate; we might not have seen Vigil Shields for Tartaros yet as they were waiting for the plastics to be on the shelves in BoP before they started on them. Similar to how we haven't seen any Tartaros Legion specific pads yet. I doubt it's the case, but just a thought :-)

[Lord Blackwood]

I want to see the back of the shields personally   as in how they connect to the arm. 

 

[exsanguis]

Hey guys,

 

Is it worth going HB on Marksmen Vets with IF or stick to Plasma Guns?

[Unknown Legionnaire]

So, regarding the Hammerfall Strike Force RoW:

 

1.)  How to make it work as a Primary Detachment in 2.000 pts ? What Lord of War choice would be nice to go with it ?

 

A Damocles would work very well with it, but the Damocles would need to emerge from reserves first as well.

 

 

2.)  Could it be taken in an Allied Detachment though ? It forbids to take Allied Detachments when taken as the Primary, but the other way round ?

 

3.)  Another thought:  When I have both Polux as well as a unit of 5 Vet Tacs he's attached to and a Damocles they're embarked upon in reserves, would it be legal to bring them back inside the Damocles  from out of reserves during deployment using Polux's warlord trait. I.E. using the trait to deploy the Damocles plus him and his unit ?

Edited January 19, 2017 by Unknown Legionnaire

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hey guys,

 

Is it worth going HB on Marksmen Vets with IF or stick to Plasma Guns?

I run one HB and one PG... reason being the PG is great at piercing AV11.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

So, regarding the Hammerfall Strike Force RoW:

 

1.)  How to make it work as a Primary Detachment in 2.000 pts ? What Lord of War choice would be nice to go with it ?

 

A Damocles would work very well with it, but the Damocles would need to emerge from reserves first as well.

 

 

2.)  Could it be taken in an Allied Detachment though ? It forbids to take Allied Detachments when taken as the Primary, but the other way round ?

 

3.)  Another thought:  When I have both Polux as well as a unit of 5 Vet Tacs he's attached to and a Damocles they're embarked upon in reserves, would it be legal to bring them back inside the Damocles  from out of reserves during deployment using Polux's warlord trait. I.E. using the trait to deploy the Damocles plus him and his unit ?

 

Shameless self-bump.

 

Any thoughts on this at all ?

[Lord Blackwood]

What do people think of the newest ROW with the new updates to the rules? 

have they changed people's thoughts around using the Teleportation ROW?

 

I am curious about this, I think outflanking Vets with Vox's allowing no-scatter for Teleporting Siggy+Termies ..... bring in the blinding stunning flashlights and shrouded

 

 

Nope. I still hate it.

 

And theres literally no point in Teleporting Sigismund in with the RoW since he'd have to sit there doing nothing for a turn but get shot by LITERALLY EVERYTHING your opponent has because Its Sigismund.

 

And Blind vs MEQ is a marginal threat at best. You fail them from time to time but its not all that common.

 

 

thats been round since book 6 

 

Slips did some testing , As did I  

 

The RoW  is pretty much garbage ( and i hate to say that ) 

 

The issue with deep striking things you want to assault with is that they sit there for a turn NOT ASSAULTING   

 

Which means your opponent can turn around and blow them up or failing that get away from them.  ( Tho its more common that your unit will just get blown off the board.)  

 

Also the example you present has its own problems 

 

Outflanking Vets ( In Reserves ) 

Sigismund + Terminators  ( around 500 +  points depending on upgrades  In Reserves ) 

 

 

Slips sorta made the case that if yer gonna run the rite it would pay to teleport in , shooty hard to shift units not assault ones  and I am inclined to agree 

 

Unfortunately I  dont think the Rite is terribly competitive or even fun to play , I found it was more frustrating than anything else. 

 

 

If you want to deepstrike Sigismund  + Terminators Id suggest doing the whole hyper dreadclaw  like the big one that starts with a K  

 

 

Edit:  Also for clarity im not trying to piss in yer ceral or anything Afro , nor am I  saying you shouldnt give it a try , Im just saying that the reports weve got here about the rites use is bad , I dont want you to think im being aggressive or intentionally provoking you into an argument or nothing. 

 

 

 

Hammerfall is good for deepstriking infantry with potent shooting where you want them to be without requiring a pod.

 

Otherwise, if you want an assault unit in Hammerfall, theyre 100% getting shoved into a dreadclaw.

 

 

 

Some old discussion tidbits from earlier in the thread. 

 

My opinion on the rite of war has not changed  I  still tank it is garbage 

[Slips]

 

So, regarding the Hammerfall Strike Force RoW:

 

1.)  How to make it work as a Primary Detachment in 2.000 pts ? What Lord of War choice would be nice to go with it ?

 

A Damocles would work very well with it, but the Damocles would need to emerge from reserves first as well.

 

 

2.)  Could it be taken in an Allied Detachment though ? It forbids to take Allied Detachments when taken as the Primary, but the other way round ?

 

3.)  Another thought:  When I have both Polux as well as a unit of 5 Vet Tacs he's attached to and a Damocles they're embarked upon in reserves, would it be legal to bring them back inside the Damocles  from out of reserves during deployment using Polux's warlord trait. I.E. using the trait to deploy the Damocles plus him and his unit ?

 

Shameless self-bump.

 

Any thoughts on this at all ?

 

Sorry dude, meant to reply to this but I got caught up with stuff and it slipped my mind.

 

My own thoughts are:

• I generally hate Hammerfall. I've playtested it a bit and it basically works against itself and anything that could be used to make it "work" such as forcing vehicles into reserves meaning no reserve manipulation since Proteus' and Damocles' are on the board EARLIEST T2.
• For LoW Choice, I'd probably use Dorn since he has a Teleporter Homer on him and gives a bunch of buffs, making Warders (eh, ok I guess) and Terminators (pretty cool) troops among others.
• None of the Legion-Specific Book 6 RoWs can be taken as allies. Primary Only. Another strike against Hammerfall :\
• I'd say no because the RoW restriction specifically states vehicles have to start in reserve. Polux can't grab a Flyer out of reserves and place it on the board T1 for the same reason.