[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Gorgoff]

Shame.

Taking Hammerfall as an allied detachment would have been the only viable way of making it work; using the primary detachment to have reserve and deep strike manipulation (command rhino, comms relay, etc)

Deep Striking Melta Veterans/ TSS with Melta- or Plasma Guns/ Plasma Seeker/ 20 man tacticals etc doesn't work for you?

What a shame indeed. ;)

[Slips]

 

Shame.

Taking Hammerfall as an allied detachment would have been the only viable way of making it work; using the primary detachment to have reserve and deep strike manipulation (command rhino, comms relay, etc)

Deep Striking Melta Veterans/ TSS with Melta- or Plasma Guns/ Plasma Seeker/ 20 man tacticals etc doesn't work for you?

What a shame indeed.

 

Then please, be our guest and go ahead and play such an army and come back to us with your findings. We've tried to make it work and it just doesn't.

 

A fair few of us who have actually used the RoW, such as me, have found it to be disappointing and, due to its rules interactions, actively working against itself.

 

Deepstriking troops and all that is nice and good but remember:

• ALL your vehicles start in reserve. That Command Rhino and LR Proteus w/ ETA you brought along to help with reserve rolls? Too bad, they aren't.
• Which means only Infantry/Bikes can start on the table.
• But you're deepstriking all your heavy hitters which means you're probably just leaving your filler on the board so that you don't auto-lose T1
• Your enemy has his whole army on the board, however, and just shoots at your MEQ bodies you decided to keep on the table.
• You somehow survive and aren't tabled on T1.
• Now roll 3+ reserve rolls for your deepstrikers/vehicles and pray enough stuff comes on.
• You don't have a Command Rhinos no-scatter bubble (since its in reserves) and your nuncio-voxes are either being deepstruck right now, or are in your deployment zone.
• You pray for minimal scatter but this being a dice game, rarely happens perfectly.
• Your army is now piecemeal in front of your enemy. But at least your forcing them to take blind tests and have shrouded, right?

[1ncarnadine]

Has anyone ever tried a heavy jetbike presence staying on board T1? Quick T5 2+ save models with jink, albeit low body count. You can get nuncio-voxes in the units via up to 2 jetbike Forge Lords. 2 Cortex Controllers would also allow you to take up to 2 Darkfire Castellax units, another tough option that can start on the board.

 

Admittedly, it's a big, expensive modeling commitment to maybe make a bad rite of war decent-ish. Still definitely not a rite for people that like consistency. It would have been a lot better if it worked a little more like Day of Revelations and allowed you to Deep Strike half your troops turn 1 or something.

Edited October 30, 2017 by LetsYouDown

[Slips]

Its definitely possible to do something with it but you have to jump through a LOT of hoops to make it mediocre.

[Charlo]

Its definitely possible to do something with it but you have to jump through a LOT of hoops to make it mediocre.

 

Which is always the most heartbreaking thing about some of these RoW.

 

It's like Day of Sorrow for BA - the advantages are so minor and only occur in such specific circumstances that it's not even worth thinking about.

 

It make sense why Vehicles can't start on the table in terms of fluff for the Hammerfall but in practice it just overly gimps the rite - its especially super not worth it when you remember that:

• All IF TDA can take teleportation transponders anyway & shrouded doesn't really do anything for them as they have a 4++/3++ anyway
• Markmen Vets can outflank anyway
• You can't take forts to keep your initial infantry force safer
• You can't even take allies to hold the line - would have been really nice to have some Imperial Army or something too.

The only real use I can see is in ZM because you can take your super-breacher troops and teleport in some choice units in a smaller game where failing a blind test counts for a lot. But once again, not having any Dreads in ZM could be a Death Sentence and you could teleport your TDA in anyway.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Charlo

[rendingon1+]

Those scatters though... Personally I'm afraid to teleport anything larger than 5 PA guys in ZM thanks to my awfull rolls for scatter and mishap. But that's just me.

 

Ironically this RoW would work perfectly with Perturabo who allows you to roll for reserves turn 1.

[K3nn3rs]

It could be given a fighting chance with some decent new wargear for a master of signals or Vigilator; something that mimics a comms relay. Would be fluffy IMO.

[Sulemain]

I can imagine Pride of the Legion in conjunction with Alexis Polux and a Damocles Command Rhino would allow for some fun deep striking shenanigans, like plopping a TH HSS with MM right behind an enemy arty position. Or DSing Terms as troops, etc. 

[Gorgoff]

<p>

 

 

 

Shame.

Taking Hammerfall as an allied detachment would have been the only viable way of making it work; using the primary detachment to have reserve and deep strike manipulation (command rhino, comms relay, etc)

Deep Striking Melta Veterans/ TSS with Melta- or Plasma Guns/ Plasma Seeker/ 20 man tacticals etc doesn't work for you?

What a shame indeed.

Then please, be our guest and go ahead and play such an army and come back to us with your findings. We've tried to make it work and it just doesn't.

 

A fair few of us who have actually used the RoW, such as me, have found it to be disappointing and, due to its rules interactions, actively working against itself.

 

Deepstriking troops and all that is nice and good but remember:

• ALL your vehicles start in reserve. That Command Rhino and LR Proteus w/ ETA you brought along to help with reserve rolls? Too bad, they aren't.
• Which means only Infantry/Bikes can start on the table.
• But you're deepstriking all your heavy hitters which means you're probably just leaving your filler on the board so that you don't auto-lose T1
• Your enemy has his whole army on the board, however, and just shoots at your MEQ bodies you decided to keep on the table.
• You somehow survive and aren't tabled on T1.
• Now roll 3+ reserve rolls for your deepstrikers/vehicles and pray enough stuff comes on.
• You don't have a Command Rhinos no-scatter bubble (since its in reserves) and your nuncio-voxes are either being deepstruck right now, or are in your deployment zone.
• You pray for minimal scatter but this being a dice game, rarely happens perfectly.
• Your army is now piecemeal in front of your enemy. But at least your forcing them to take blind tests and have shrouded, right?

Oh.

OWWWWWW

I completely missed the tank part.

Yupp, that IS a bummer.

[K3nn3rs]

I can imagine Pride of the Legion in conjunction with Alexis Polux and a Damocles Command Rhino would allow for some fun deep striking shenanigans, like plopping a TH HSS with MM right behind an enemy arty position. Or DSing Terms as troops, etc.

I used to run a list just like that.

DS seekers, 2 x terminator squads, aided by the command rhino.

It was certainly fun!

[Sulemain]

Basically, the Imperial Fists Legion Rules enable them to turn generic ROWs into something awesome. Like having an all DSing Terminator army, as you say.

Just like how using Pride of the Legion as Raven Guard means you can create an uberpowerful airborne force using Darkwings. 

[Kisada]

Could anyone point me to a good Stone Gauntlet list (or if SG is no good another RoW is fine)?  I've never played 7th and I'm a slow painter/builder so I'd like to get started on the hobby portion for Heresy Camp in Sept 2018 (yeah I'm that slow lol).

 

I don't care about beating faces in ... just don't want to be a total walk in the park for my opponents.

 

So far I have 20 tacticals painted up and am willing to buy (basically) anything suggested.

 

Pictures of my 2 squads done so far.

[Slips]

The easiest RoW for IF to start with and get some decent results is Pride with Sniper Vets with special weapons being optional. BS5 means you're hitting on 2s and Sniper means youre wounding everything but the very-rare-in-30k gargantuan monstrous creatures on a 4+ and have Ap2 on 6s to wound.

 

T7 Castellax that normal tactical marines would only wound on 6s? Not with Sniper Vets, for example.

 

This also lets you field a more points dense and elite army meaning you don't need as many models to field a relatively large army.

 

Starting Building Blocks for such an army could be:

 

• Preator: Gear to taste but if hes in TDA, Storm Shield is nigh-mandatory. Otherwise, Paragon Blade or a Solarite Power Gauntlet are the more worthwhile weapon options; use him to unlock the RoW
  • Other Options include: Consul Delegatus. Polux and Siggy are available and the former is a more points efficient choice being a PA Preator with a Storm Shield and an S10 Power Fist.
• 2x 10 Man Tac Vets w/ Sniper in a Rhino; Sarge with Artificer Armour and, preferably, a Power Fist but an Axe will do, Melta Bombs optional, 2x Special Weapons are up to you.

This essentially fills up your minimum requirements for the RoW and basic AoD Force org of 1 Hq and 2 Troops. But, as you'll note, your HQ selection has nowhere to go since the Vets are 10 man squads in Rhinos. Now, you could do the following:

• Cut down one vet squad to 8 men and the other to 9 men.
• Purchase 2 Apothecaries with Augury Scanners and Artificer Armour with power swords optional for both Vet Squads.
• Put the HQ choice with the 8 Man + Apoth Squad.

This way, all your vets and HQ have FNP, you can intercept with the augury scanners and/or deny infiltrate if you start outside of your rhinos for whatever reason. That said, only really do this if you're not taking special weapons with your Vets since you normally want to make most of the 1in5 selection and get a full 10 man squad for 2 specials.

 

Otherwise, you can do pretty much whatever.

 

Want Dreanoughts? Go ahead.

Terminators? Sure.

A Knight LoW? Go for it.

Flyers? Doable.

etc.

 

For a Stone Gauntlet List, you're either footslogging or meching up and giving your HQ his own retinue (command squad or Templar/Vets) since Breachers are minimum 10 man size. So:

• HQ: Preator/Delegatus with Storm Shield (in TDA) or Boarding Shield (AA) and standard upgrades or Polux (since he benefits from the buffs provided by the RoW)
• 2x Breacher Squads: Sarge with AA and Power Fist. Special is up to you though the Graviton Guns being Heavy 1 mean you want to move them as little as possible due to being Small Blast weapons. Melta Bombs or Breaching Charges up to you.

If Meching up add the following:

• Either:
  • 4 Man TDA Command Squad (for TDA Praetor) w/ Storm Shields and Power/Chain Fists in Land Raider Phobos.
  • 5 Man Artificer Armour Command Squad w/ Combat Shields in a Land Raider Phobos.
  • 8-9 Man Templar Squad w/ Combat Shields, Champion with Sol Glove in Land Raider Phobos (8 man if using TDA HQ, 9 man otherwise).
• Land Raider Proteus for each Breacher Squad.

The rest is up to you. The only reason you're giving your HQs squad LR Phobos' is because they're assault vehicles and the RoW prevents you from Deepstriking meaning you can make use of Teleportation Transponders or Dreadclaws.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Slips

[Kisada]

I'm gonna have to go over your advice and digest it some more ...

 

Question. Could my squads I posted qualify as sniper vets?

[Slips]

I'm gonna have to go over your advice and digest it some more ...

 

Question. Could my squads I posted qualify as sniper vets?

Theyre space marines with bolters so yes.

[Runefyre]

^I would certainly let you run those guys as vets, but someone pickier than I might force you to add combat blades/chainswords to comply with WYSIWYG.

[Kisada]

^I would certainly let you run those guys as vets, but someone pickier than I might force you to add combat blades/chainswords to comply with WYSIWYG.

Hmmm. I'll email the event organizer. If they want it more wysiwyg then it shouldn't be too hard to add some CCWs to them

[Charlo]

I wouldn't bother mentioning it. No one is going to pull you up on that in my experience.

[Gorgoff]

I wouldn't bother mentioning it. No one is going to pull you up on that in my experience.

I second that.

Noones gonna bother you.

Having said I may add, that often -not always- people paint their Veterans differently.

You find some advice on that page 63 in the Horus Heresy black book three "Extermination".

Or with google. ;)

[Kisada]

Having said I may add, that often -not always- people paint their Veterans differently.

You find some advice on that page 63 in the Horus Heresy black book three "Extermination".

Or with google. ;)

From what I can understand from that page the sign for a vet isn't color/paint but a Templar cross. I have 3 marines with a cross on their forearm and the power fist sarge has a cross on his power fist.

 

I could add white crosses on everyone's black knee pads. That would actually look pretty cool I think.

 

However if I don't have any standard tactical squads in my army and all are being used as veteran tactical squads then at least there wouldn't be any chance for confusion?

[Charlo]

No confusion at all in that case.

 

They look nice enough to be quality vets!

[Gorgoff]

No confusion at all in that case.

 

They look nice enough to be quality vets!

Thats for sure.

Your marines look awesome Kisada.

[Kisada]

Ok ... keep in mind I've never played 7th lol ...

 

Comparing what I have and what Slips recommended here is 2.5k list

 

Legion Praetor [cataphractii, SS, paragon, digi laser]

 

Apothecarion detachment.  1x apothecary with power sword (he can join terminator squad?)

Quad Launcher x2 [shatter shells]

Cataphractii Terminator squad [sS for all, 2 chain fist, 3 power fist]

 

2x Breacher squad [10man, vexilla, Sarge with AA and PF]

Dedicated Land Raider Proteus

 

Fire Raptor [Hellstrike, Autocannon]

Sicaran [lascannon, dozer blade]

Heavy Support Squad [6man, lascannons, sarge with AA and augury scanner]

 

2500 on the dot.

 

How bad will I die? lol

 

Spartan with the praetor and termies seems like they'll probably get shot with everything and die.

Damn those breachers with proteus are expensive ... 

[Charlo]

Okay so it's a good start!

 

Some suggestions based on each unit:

 

Preator:

• Are you running a rite of war? Stone Gauntlet?

Apothecary:

• Standard Apothecary cannot go with Terminators, you need a Primus Medicae consul for this instead (HQ choice, a lot more expensive).

Terminators:

• Terminators in the open is suicide (even with storm shields and medic). They need to teleport at least, which they cannot do in Stone Gauntlet - so a transport is a must.

Quad Mortars:

• Great unit, if a touch cheesy. Fluffy for fists though.

Breachers:

• Good aspect of breachers is that they get special weapons. Give them some. Flamers help with the anti-infantry nature and combo well with a transport. Breaching charges are the #FUN option.
• Dedicated Proteus are nice - consider upgrading the heavy bolters to a 3rd Twin-Lascannon and popping on a Pintle Multi-Melta to give you a lot of accurate anti AV.

Fire Raptor:

• Top Gun Boat, keep it

Sicaran & Lascannon squad

• Unsure if you need these, you have a lot of firepower in your land raiders and raptor. The Heavy Support Squad will be a TOTAL fire magnet as the rest of your army is in AV14 walls. They are also a lot of points that could optimise the terminators etc.

Suggested changes:

1. Get a Primus Medicae in Terminator Armour
2. Make the TDA squad into a TDA Command Squad (it's only 3 man but you get four wounds and the banner makes them fearless, combo's very well with storm shield and FNP to grind the enemy down).
3. If you want to save points, you can fit the Preator, Medicae + command squad into a Land Raider Phobos (Standard one). A Spartan would be better and let you have some more command squad members though.
4. Remove some of the heavy support to help fund this.

[Kisada]

 

Suggested changes:

1. Get a Primus Medicae in Terminator Armour
2. Make the TDA squad into a TDA Command Squad (it's only 3 man but you get four wounds and the banner makes them fearless, combo's very well with storm shield and FNP to grind the enemy down).
3. If you want to save points, you can fit the Preator, Medicae + command squad into a Land Raider Phobos (Standard one). A Spartan would be better and let you have some more command squad members though.
4. Remove some of the heavy support to help fund this.

 

 

 

1. thanks for the info on the apothecary/primus medicae

2. brain fart ... the TDA are in a spartan, only dozer blade upgrade.  Ok I will look at the command squad

3. see above

4. You're right ... the heavy support is expensive (270) but I thought lascannons with tank hunters would be strong.  But then you're probably right again that they're going to draw a lot of attention.  I could use those points for the primus medicae and some upgrades on the tanks.  

 

Regarding your comments on the Proteus.  I thought in 7th/HH you can't fire all the weapons on a vehicle at once (I'm at work right now and can't refer to my rulebooks)

Anyway

dropping the heavy support squad, adding 3rd twin las and pintle MM to both proteus, adding primus medicae [cata, SS, solarite]

double flamer for each breacher and a breaching charge for each sarge

puts me at 2475 ... maybe some other upgrades to vehicles?  Grenade harness?  Make all TDA chainfist? Mastercraft paragon blade on praetor?

 

speaking of praetor .. do I need a rite of war?

 

Oh ... Stone Gauntlet to make breachers and TDA T5??

Edited November 13, 2017 by Kisada