[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Slips]

Yeah i thought it had been settled too but hearing this made me realise it had been settled in this forum, not in general so unless FW has actually FAQ'd this i guess its still actually open to debate/use.

 

The EoH/RFI guys make a good point that 15 points is not cheap so you are really paying a pretty high cost to do this.

Hell, I'd be fine with the Points cost for Storm shields being 20/10/5 for Tartaros/Indomitus/Cataphractii respectively.

 

Their one comment of "Sweeping Terminators with a 3++ is kinda over the top" was proven false when they gave Sekhmet Terminators the option for stacking invulnerable save improvements and the option to wear Tartaros which essentially gave them 3++ terminators THAT STILL had their shooting weapon to boot AND an extra wound and psychic powers on top of all that.

[Elzender]

Related to storm shields abd their availability, is it confirmed if terminator command squads can take them? In the red book I have, it is written that only LEGION terminators and independent characters in terminator armour can take them, so as I understand RAW command squads cannot take them (which is a bummer).

[Brother Captain Spud]

Related to storm shields abd their availability, is it confirmed if terminator command squads can take them? In the red book I have, it is written that only LEGION terminators and independent characters in terminator armour can take them, so as I understand RAW command squads cannot take them (which is a bummer).

I generally play casually and nobody I've played has pushed that legion terminators and terminator command squads are different. A legionair in terminator armour is a legion terminator is the way ive always seen it played although i have seen debate here. I guess its a question of your meta, play to win RAW sticklers or fluff/RAI (i being intended or interpreted).

[Elzender]

Yep, I don't think it either that it would be difficult for people in a group to accept it, as it is quite reasonable, I was just curious to see if there was an official stance on that issue (don't really have a HH group at the moment, but knowing in advance if I can equip my command squad in a certain way would make me rethink their equipment, or maybe I just go for rule of cool and then make extensive use of "count-as" :D ).

As a curiosity, Salamanders also have a similar shield, and as far as I remember in their case the rule said that any terminator could use it, and did not limit it to specific squads or characters.

[Fenbain]

Yep, I don't think it either that it would be difficult for people in a group to accept it, as it is quite reasonable, I was just curious to see if there was an official stance on that issue (don't really have a HH group at the moment, but knowing in advance if I can equip my command squad in a certain way would make me rethink their equipment, or maybe I just go for rule of cool and then make extensive use of "count-as" :D ).

As a curiosity, Salamanders also have a similar shield, and as far as I remember in their case the rule said that any terminator could use it, and did not limit it to specific squads or characters.

The difference is that the Salamanders' shield only improves an invulnerable save by +1, so you can't use it to give Tartaros-equipped Terminator squads a 3+ invulnerable save. Combined with the Legion's rules in regards to sweeping etc., it's much less of an issue.

 

As for the Imperial Fists, RAW it definitely isn't allowed, but it has been written into a future FAQ that it is allowed and intended. Until that goes live though, it's down to your gaming group on what they play and not allowed at any RAW-leaning events etc.

[K3nn3rs]

I’d love it to be allowed and agree 15 pts is a lot, especially when compared to Salamanders and TS.

 

However, to take that combo now is to invite accusations of being WAAC / gamey and upsetting/ putting at risk the vital social contract between you and you opponent (I play a lot of pick up games / event games).

I don’t want that so will continue to stick with RAW.

[K3nn3rs]

 

 

Where have you heard about this FAQ?

Any other hints what’s in it and when it will be released?

 

IMO the Salamander comparison has merit. It only costs them 5 points for a 1+ imvulnerable save (3++ on cataphractii), where as it cost ius 10 to get a 3++.

Edited January 24, 2018 by K3nn3rs

[Elzender]

 

Yep, I don't think it either that it would be difficult for people in a group to accept it, as it is quite reasonable, I was just curious to see if there was an official stance on that issue (don't really have a HH group at the moment, but knowing in advance if I can equip my command squad in a certain way would make me rethink their equipment, or maybe I just go for rule of cool and then make extensive use of "count-as" ).

As a curiosity, Salamanders also have a similar shield, and as far as I remember in their case the rule said that any terminator could use it, and did not limit it to specific squads or characters.

The difference is that the Salamanders' shield only improves an invulnerable save by +1, so you can't use it to give Tartaros-equipped Terminator squads a 3+ invulnerable save. Combined with the Legion's rules in regards to sweeping etc., it's much less of an issue.

 

As for the Imperial Fists, RAW it definitely isn't allowed, but it has been written into a future FAQ that it is allowed and intended. Until that goes live though, it's down to your gaming group on what they play and not allowed at any RAW-leaning events etc.

 

 

Yep, that's true. My point was leaning towards the availability of the shields for command squads, regardless of the terminator armour used, rather than their utility, and mainly because of modelling reasons, as I barely play but I would prefer to stick to legal loadouts in case I want to.

Anyways, looking forward to see that FAQ (is there any available at the moment for the army list red books? I can't seem to find any.)

[K3nn3rs]

What are people’s thoughts on the best way to run our Primarch?

 

I’m thinking of massed foot slogging infantry, deep striking terminators and fortifications in order to maximise his army wide buffs.

 

I’m also thinking of running him with standard terminators with storm shields in order to maximise both resilience (3++), offensive power (S8 AP2 weapons) and get some benefit from Crusader.

 

Not sure on what (if any) supporting character to run with him.... if I’m taking SG I’d run an apothercary. Outside of that perhaps a FL...?

[Charlo]

He's amazing just sat in a Gunline with a few counter-assault elements sprinkled in.

 

He can singlehandedly turn any fight with his +D3 combat resolution as well as up to NINE attacks that will rip through most anything that may come up against you.

 

Oh look, Stone Gauntlet sounds like that sort of army? :D

[Caillum]

Yeah, I’ve discussed the merits of Dorn in Stone Gauntlet before. Really great synergy there!

[K3nn3rs]

I struggle with a viable army at anything less then 3500 when I put Dorn in.

 

Have you managed to make an effective list at 3000?

[Caillum]

How about this?

 

Chaplain in Terminator armour: Terminator armour (Cataphractii); Vigil pattern storm shield (Cataphractii) 130

 

15 Breacher Space Marines: Breacher Sergeant (artificer armour; power fist); 14 Breacher Space Marines; 3 × flamer; nuncio-vox; legion vexilla 355

 

15 Breacher Space Marines: Breacher Sergeant (artificer armour; power fist); 14 Breacher Space Marines; 3 × flamer; nuncio-vox; legion vexilla 355

 

5 Terminators: Terminator Sergeant (Vigil pattern storm shield; power fist); 4 Terminators; Terminator armour (Cataphractii); 3 × Vigil pattern storm shield; 2 × power fist; 2 × chainfist; Iliastus pattern assault cannon 265

• Spartan Assault Tank: armoured ceramite; flare shield; dozer blade 375

 

Apothecarion Detachment

• Apothecary: artificer armour; augury scanner 60

• Apothecary: artificer armour; augury scanner 60

 

2 Quad Launcher Rapier Carriers: quad launcher (shatter shells) 140

 

2 Quad Launcher Rapier Carriers: quad launcher (shatter shells) 140

 

8 Heavy Support Marines: Heavy Support Sergeant (augury scanner); 7 Heavy Support Marines; autocannons 240

 

Whirlwind Scorpius xxx

 

Artillery Tank Squadron

• Medusa xxx

• Medusa xxx

 

Rogal Dorn: Rite of War (The Stone Gauntlet) xxx

 

Allied Fortifications (Age of Darkness)

Wall of Martyrs Imperial Bunker: Ammo Store 70

 

3,000 points

 

Play it defensively. Ensure you memorise all the benefits from LA:IF and Dorn himself! Breachers can hold in cover or advance, and they have the numbers to soak up a few hits. Plenty of ranged heavy hitters in 8 Devastators, 4 Quad Launchers, 2 Medusae and a Scorpius. I’m a great proponent of autocannons, especially when they’ve got Tank Hunters - use them to hunt light/medium armour. Dorn, Chaplain and Huscarls (Terminators) go and beat the snot out of whatever they want.

 

If you want to mix it up, swap the Scorpius/Medusae/Rapiers for something else. You only have as many Elite/Fast Attack slots as Troops, but that’s your only limitation.

[K3nn3rs]

This is my version of Callum’s army, based on the models i have / like.

 

I feel I don’t have enough scoring troops - but should still be fun!

 

Primus Medicae in Terminator armour: Vigil Pattern Storm Shield; Solarite power gauntlet; 160

 

Centurion: artificer armour; thunder hammer; melta bombs; boarding shield 100

 

9 Breacher Space Marines: 2× graviton gun; nuncio-vox; legion vexilla; + 1 Breacher Sergeant (artificer armour; power weapon; melta bombs) 280

 

9 Breacher Space Marines: 2× volkite charger; legion vexilla; + 1 Breacher Sergeant (artificer armour; power fist; breaching charge) 260

 

4 Terminators: 4× Vigil pattern storm shield; 4× chainfist; + 1 Terminator Sergeant (Vigil pattern storm shield; chainfist) 275

• Spartan Assault Tank: armoured ceramite; flare shield; dozer blade 375

 

Apothecarion Detachment

• Apothecary: artificer armour; augury scanner 60

• Apothecary: artificer armour; augury scanner 60

 

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon

• Contemptor Dreadnought: Dreadnought close combat weapon (graviton gun); Dreadnought chainfist (graviton gun) 215

 

2 Quad Launcher Rapier Carriers: quad launcher (shatter shells) 140

 

Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer: dozer blade 195

 

Whirlwind Scorpius XXX

 

5 Heavy Support Marines: lascannons; + 1 Heavy Support Sergeant (remove lascannon; nuncio-vox & chainsword; augury scanner) 260

 

Rogal Dorn 385

 

Wall of Martyrs Imperial Bunker: Ammo Store; Gun Emplacement with Quad-gun 120

 

3,000 points

[Withershadow]

Where have you heard about this FAQ?

Any other hints what’s in it and when it will be released?

Yes, I am also curious about this FAQ. I've seen a preliminary brief of errata for the HH rulebook, but it was barely a page and did not address Legion-specific things.

[K3nn3rs]

Hopefully we’ll get some news from the HH weekender!

[Brother Captain Spud]

Im lost. Where did we end up with shields?

 

Tartos is a maybe if your opponent/local meta is cool.

 

Terminator command...?

[K3nn3rs]

IMO Tartaros is still a big stretch. Rules are currently clear - no shields (still cool to use the models and run them as standard terminator). I feel the consensus is that they are not ok.

 

Command Squads is still a grey area - I feel it’s ok (and I think the consensus is that it’s ok) but always check with event organisers / my opponent first.

[K3nn3rs]

I play the Stone Gauntlet RoW and I feel that to get the maximum out of this very fluffy and aesthetically pleasing RoW is to combine the T5 with FnP (always).

 

So apothecaries with breacher squads and a Primus apothercary with my terminator command squad.

 

The pay off is mobility - I don’t like taking breachers in LR because you can’t squeeze in apothercaries (i personally think LR should be capacity 12), leaving just a Spartan to provide pressure on my opponent.

 

I’m also trying to avoid taking non-shield bearing infantry in order to maximise the benefits of the RoW.

 

So you can imagine my excitement when the leaked termite rules hit - capacity 12 (perfect for a breacher squad and apothercary) and cheap to boot!

 

Taking a FA slot is an issue but not as much as deep strike (a no-go in the SG RoW)....

[Slips]

The thing about TSG and its restrictions on Deepstriking is that, its SUPPOSED to be a breacher-manned gunline. Aka immobile and there to stand their ground and take a hit as you shoot them to bits not advance forward.

 

Again, the Termite works better in non-TSG Lists actually makes Templar/POTL lists all the better because, at least for IF, we usually have all 3 FA slots open.

 

To me, this opens the possibility on the following:

• Templar Squad x10 w/ stuff + Apothecary (or PM) + 1 IC
• Phalanx Warders x10 w/ Plasma Guns and stuff + Apothecary (or PM) + 1 IC
• TSS x10 w/ whatevergun + Apothecary + MoS for +1 BS

All of them in a pseudo-pod that has its own form of DPA but isnt DPA meaning you can then also take dreads in pods and whatnot for a more potent alpha strike.

 

With 3 Termites and 3 Dreadpods, you have 2 of each coming in automatically on T1 with the former causing damage if you hit stuff with it and the latter vomiting out Dreadnoughts.

 

The added advantage of the Termite, however, is that it works like a dreadclaw and how normal pods USED to work WAAAAAY back when in 30k in that, upon arrival, you're not forced to hop out of the ride.

 

The SLOW 6" maximum speed means that its honestly never worth taking if you can't deep strike it.

[K3nn3rs]

Thanks for the reply Slips.

 

That’s not my interpretation of the SG RoW. It’s even described in the red book as a ‘battering ram of force’ with ‘bursts of relentless aggression’. Though I agree the stength of the formation lies first with a solid defence.

 

My army is themed around an urban / siege assault list - where the strengths of the RoW lend itself to this Close Quarter Battle enveironment. So I need to mix defence with some form of offensive force (currently a Spartan / HQs and terminators).

 

I agree that the termites strengths are with other RoWs, where you get to use the full range of rules. But for 80 pts and the excuse to make a cool conversion I’m tempted to try it out as a SLOW tank to support the advance of my spartan.

 

I think outside of SG 1 x Dreadclaw and 1 x Termite with deepstriking terminators could be the sweet spot!

Edited February 6, 2018 by K3nn3rs

[Slips]

Youre right with the corrections on how TSG should be viewed since they get Hammer of Wrath for charging after all. Still, the deepstrike restriction is a tough pill to swallow.

 

You COULD use the termite that way and mainly use it as a mobile LoS blocker but youre losing out on a bunch of stuff doing that sadly.

[K3nn3rs]

You’re right I won’t get the full benefit of the rules.

 

I’ve been planning on getting a Sicaran Battle tank and think I could make a good go of using that as the basis of the conversion - worst case it won’t work and I’ve wasted £10-£20 on conversion bits.

[DietOfLiquor]

Yah, TSG restrictions does make it rather tough pill to swallow with the restrictions. But, even without it, our breachers are now able to get straight up enemy lines with getting shot to death, have an IC + Apothecary, be decked out and be able to do damage.

 

However, I'm looking at using a delegatus, two centurions leading a head on charge with three termites full of fun vets. Then having another squad of vets in a land raider backed by other vehicle support. Feel like there are possibilities now. Got artillery and against a gun line? T2 hopefully you'll get a termite in with nuncio vox and start popping enemy artillery while tearing up the gunlines.

 

I know I suffer from playing against SA and Ordo Reductor that usually blast me to pieces before I get to them. This is a good change.

[Slips]

As an aside, for those interested in grabbing Templar Brethren or Phalanx Warders, FW is now selling them as a "kit" that includes the 5 man Despoiler Squad & Upgrade set required to make the squads and theres a decent 9Pound saving to be had.

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-CA/Imperial-Fists-Legion-Templar-Brethren-2018

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-CA/Imperial-Fists-Legion-Phalanx-Warder-Squad-2018

 

Regardless, I MIGHT have Dorn and Aetos Dios in my possession soon-ish-maybe so I'm currently thinking about how to fill out the Primarchs personal transport with regards to unit composition.

 

30 Capacity means  that it can fit Dorn (2) + non TDA HQs (1ea.) + 10 Termies (20) with 6-7 slots left over to fill it with another squad maybe.

 

or, since this'll usually come into play in Apocalypse games for the most part, fill it with Templar and Warders (and/or 1 Contemptor) to accompany Dorn whilst Termies and Siggy ride around in a Spartan so that I can have 2 giant point sinks instead of one...