Help Wanted: Killing Flying Demon Prince with Iron Arm

[notmattlythgoe]

What about a bunker or a bastion with a quadd gun loaded with a flakk missile Dev sqaud in the battlements and a divination Libby for prescience?

[march10k]

I think we're looking at this wrong.  You only need to shut down Iron Arm once for it to have a massive impact, I believe that a Librarian is becoming a requirement in the current meta for this reason.  

 

You ignore it until you have to deal with it (if you can), wait until you can really jump on him next turn and shut down his cast of Iron Arm, pounce hard, destroy, and move on?

 

Paul

You make shutting down iron arm on demand sound so easy...you have a WFB dispel scroll that works in 40k?

 

On some of the other ideas...D weapons are a joke, he gets a 2+ save if you don't roll a six to wound. Might as well tank-shock him with a super-heavy and pray you roll a six.

 

I think the best way to deal with this cat is perfect timing on a lascannon devastator squad. Leaves him with nothing but his daemon save...oh, speaking of that, ally in a GK libby for santic powers. Drop his daemon save to a 6+ with the primaris first. Daemon player can try blocking that, depriving him of any chance to block perfect timing, or he can save his 15 or more deny dice for perfect timing...in which case you throw ALL of your remaining charges at it. Now you're shooting four lascannons at him, and he only gets a 6++. Even better if there's a psyocculum in the dev squad...

[Darkangeldentist]

Polythemus, I would like a little clarification on a few points.

Is the daemon prince from the chaos space marine codex or the chaos daemon book? The original post was a little unclear and has been made more confused by some of the later posts. This is signiicant for two reasons, firstly how much they can invest in the psychic phase to get their powers working along with the options they can take. Second is that due to the change to faction wording the Inner circle rule now grants preferred enemy benefits against any model from the chaos space marine faction book! Before there was some room for interpretation over what counted as a chaos space marine but with the 7th edition wording I think it makes rather more clear cut to allow anything with the inner circle rule to re-roll 1s against everything from the chaos space marine book.

Second is to clear up exactly what you are facing in terms of stats. Several people have posted about the mark of nurgles benefits to daemon princes and this coincides with the question about which book the prince is bought from.

Iron arm does not grant 'feel no pain' or eternal warrior for that matter. Are they stacking it with the endurance power as well? (Which would grant feel no pain (4+) and eternal warrior.) This puts a fair bit more strain on their psychic phase.

Since the prince has wings, is he using them to glide and get around the board or just acting as very big jump infantry?

These questions are a little pedantic but do impact a bit on what can be done to counter this parcel of joy.

Here are a few ideas that spring to mind personally that will hopefully help.

In terms of bringing him down sniper rifle scouts are the cheapest, easiest option. A unit isn't expensive and will cause several wounds a turn for him to save. If the daemon prince isn't in cover then shrouding just equals his regular invulnerable save.

It can help if you bring a lot of intimidating firepower because it will encourage your opponent to have it fly rather than just jump around. Flying now prohibits charging into combat in the same turn and daemon's don't have much in the way of ranged threat. If he flies, just ignore him for the most part. Position just in case but don't waste fire on it.

Black knights or a ravenwing command squad could be one decent option since if you get first turn you can quite reasonably expect to shoot him down before he can cast any powers. An auspex can also help a little against the cover saves. A rad grenade also helps enormously if you can catch him before he gets a chance to get iron arm up. They can also potentially delay him when aided by a power field because even though he'll get an invulnerable save so will the bikes and you can afford to take a round of combat to allow a hit and run escape to shoot and charge back into combat. A character such as an interrogator chaplain could also hold him up in melee for a round or two with a bit of luck. Again, hit and run should give an edge to allow better odds. The extra toughness also means the daemons won't be instant death short cutting their way through our characters.

It's worth remembering that challenge rules have changed quite a bit so it's worth reading up on them again. Really tough single characters can't act as speed bumps as effectively any more.

Deathwing knights are our best combat and all-round melee threat option. Smite mode won't care that much about iron arm and they have an easier time hitting too. Even outside of the smite turn they will endure fairly well with a chance of sneaking some wounds past. Belial is actually quite a reasonable option for a challenge with the sword of silence if part of a deathwing knight unit since he will get +1 toughness and thus won't die to the strength 9 attacks coming from the iron arm daemon unless they have something else buffing their strength on top of that.

Psychic powers:

There are several that can help, either directly to harm the daemon prince or supporting spells to mitigate it's threat. They are not very reliably due to the more random nature of the psychic phase but blessings are hard to stop and the randomness of trying to get a certain number of specific results makes for little reliability. It's hard to plan around, not least because you have to roll for the powers. It's worth remembering that the daemon prince has to roll iron arm as well. Even at mastery level 3 it's only about 50% odds of getting it. Never know with psychic powers.

Misfortune: rending on everything targeting the daemon prince? Yes please! Solves the issue of potentially being unable to hurt it and combines well with some of our weight of fire options. (Hello there, banner of devastation, great to have you!) Difficult to get off though since it must target the prince and costs 2 warp charge.

Psychic shriek: decent to good odds to doing wound and the range is greater than the previous edition plus isn't too hard to cast. Since it wounds automatically and ignores armour and cover this is a pretty good option.

Dominate: Not the best or most reliably but daemons don't have the greatest Ld and it only take one failed test to ruin their plans.

Invisibility: This power is just wrong to be honest and putting it on any friendly unit will make it an excellent tarpit but Ravenwing would appeal most to me since they can hit and run back out of combat each game turn to ensure you aren't likely to have them stuck in combat on turns when you fail to get the power off.

Forewarning: A 4+ invulnerable save for an entire unit is about as good as you could wish to defensive protection and means any unit can act as tarpit against the daemon prince.

Santuary: Risky due to the problems with using daemonology powers but get it off on a unit with storm shields and just watch their attacks bounce!

I thinks that's all I can think of for the moment. Some have probably already been mentioned but I hope there's enough content to be of some use.

[Polythemus]

As always DA dentist a very quality post.

 

Ok so for a little clarity:

 

- I want to clarify the demon prince I was facing was a CSM prince with wings, mostly acting as jump infantry. 

- I now understand from the CSM codex that the rules are important in the difference between Demon of X, and Mark of X, where X = chaos god of choice.  When people write lists online they often interchange the two. Demon of Nurgle gains shrouding and Slow/Purposeful, while Mark of Nurgle gains +1T and shrouding. Thanks to RayJ for first pointing this out.

- The Prince(s) i faced had both endurance and iron arm, i didn't understand this during the game, for reasons i will explain another time.

 

questions that still need to be resolved. 

 

Do jump infantry gain jink? I ask this because if flying monstrous creatures that are acting as jump infantry do they still get to jink? The difference between a 5+ cover save and 2+ cover save is pretty huge.

 

In a challenge (which is relevant since demon princes as characters must challenge) wounds overflow onto the squad if challenger is killed, and seem to overflow onto to challenger if the squad is killed by opposing models involved in melee. can a squad outright attack a challenger after the challenge round is done? Would a challenged model still benefit from fortress of shields in a challenge since challenging models are only considered to be in base to base with each other.

(Side bar: Also did everyone notice that the "encouragement rule" for models outside a challenge is now gone. eg. get to reroll a die for every five models standing outside a challenge)

 

I will be able to show more clearly the very real problems with this opponent, in a batrep in the near future.

[Seahawk]

A Swooping FMC cannot Jink.

 

As long as the challenge is in effect, nobody but the character can lay wounds on the DP. There's overflow into and out of a challenge, but since there's nobody to attack in the first place, there's no overflow onto the DP.

 

I will reiterate my first post: do not try to bring it down. Just Misfortune + Banner of Devastation or Devastators + Perfect Timing it to death once it's on the ground. Yes, that means you'll only get one shooting phase to make it happen, so make it count.

[Polythemus]

Actually a swooping fmc can jink because that's its flyer mode. A grounded fmc can't jink, and is considered to be glide mode. Ergo can be charged. It doesn't really say a gliding fmc loses jink, but I think RAI it should. (I try to keep them straight with this mnemonic, "A swooping sparrow stays airborne, a hang-glider glides to the ground.") It does state FMCs have jink.

 

I don't want this to get into a rules discussion as this is a dark angels tactics thread.

 

I'm curious how you came to this thread Seahawk as it's not obviously discussing rules or ultramarines, maybe you have automatic in thread rules notification software? Either way welcome to the Rock!

[Seahawk]

 I do play Dark Angels as well, so I make the rounds; anything of interest or where I can help, I do just that.

 

Ah, I missed where it says it has Jink, you're right. Yes then, it can Jink, regardless of whether it's Gliding or Swooping.

[march10k]

If FMCs have jink, they have jink, regardless of what movement mode they're using. Jink+shrouding=2++, and therein lies the problem. The solution, therefore, is to disallow cover saves.

[RayJ]

I'm with march10k on RAW. FMC have jink regardless of flight mode. That is what makes the nurgle princes so bad from both CSM and CD. If they couldn't jink while gliding, they'd be very easy for ravenwing to deal with

[Prot]

It does Jink, period.

 

Oddly enough the only guy I know who gives that unit problems (as well as Dakka Flyrants) is a guy I know who plays 2 Hydra's in all his lists. lol

[march10k]

So....what denies cover saves and is at least AP3?  That's what kills this cheese unit...which is "not much."  I guess thundernators would be good.  3++ versus 5++, and if it's a C:CSM DP, then you get preferred enemy, to boot.  Yeah, if he's got all the biomancy buffs going, he's a monster...thing is, most of these lists have three such DPs, and getting all of the buffs off on all three of them?  Unlikely.  Knights would be great, but only if it's the CSM version, since they'd then be S6AP3 without blowing their smite.  The trick, of course, is delivering the termies into melee, and that means mechanized deathwing (which happens to be my favorite version of DA anyway, even if it's not that great as an all-comers list).

 

So far, I'm tracking two DA things that beat up on this cheese, termies with stormshields and perfect timing lascannons.

[RayJ]

perfect timing black knights can be really nice too :)

[march10k]

...as long as they don't get their toughness buffed.

[Polythemus]

Allied thunder fire cannons can work but only pre psychic phase (eg turn 1) or after deny the witch. I'll take dealing with 3+ over 2++ anyday

[[TA]Typher]

Even with Iron arm, the smiting knights seems statistically the best option to kill him. On average,  6 knights and either a chaplain or prescience Lib should kill him in one turn. No other option that I've seen here is as reliable

[Tygwyn]

Hiw about Telepathy???

That deamon is only Ld9, you take one or two librarians lvl 2, hoping to score that perk that reduces his Ld by further one, down to Ld8

Then you get TWO 3d6 shots that deduct his Ld from it and cause him wounds on 18" range with no armour or cover saves allowed

 

I'd take lvl2 libby and ezekiel, try to counter his psychic call and then shriek it to bits

Hi all - sorry if I've messed this up, but I'm brand new to posting on Forums! I have just got back in to DA after a 14 year gap and it's good to be back; I'm just trying to get to grips with the Army List stuff and was wondering how you get a level 2 Libby? I've seen the codex and get Ezekiel at lvl 3, and a standard Libby at lvl 1 - how much does a lvl 2 cost or do you need an allies' help?

 

Thanks for any help!

[Aradiel]

 

Hiw about Telepathy???

That deamon is only Ld9, you take one or two librarians lvl 2, hoping to score that perk that reduces his Ld by further one, down to Ld8

Then you get TWO 3d6 shots that deduct his Ld from it and cause him wounds on 18" range with no armour or cover saves allowed

 

I'd take lvl2 libby and ezekiel, try to counter his psychic call and then shriek it to bits

Hi all - sorry if I've messed this up, but I'm brand new to posting on Forums! I have just got back in to DA after a 14 year gap and it's good to be back; I'm just trying to get to grips with the Army List stuff and was wondering how you get a level 2 Libby? I've seen the codex and get Ezekiel at lvl 3, and a standard Libby at lvl 1 - how much does a lvl 2 cost or do you need an allies' help?

 

Thanks for any help!

 

 

codex DA, p94, librarian entry, first bullet point under options "may upgrade to psyker (mastery level 2)" for said number of points

[Tygwyn]

Oh yeah... Thanks for the help! Looks like I'm going to need it...

[ValourousHeart]

I guess I missed something with the new edition. Everyone keeps mentioning RWGL Rad shots... but I didn't think you could target FMC or flyers with blasts.

[EE_Knight]

I guess I missed something with the new edition. Everyone keeps mentioning RWGL Rad shots... but I didn't think you could target FMC or flyers with blasts.

If a FMC is swooping you can't use blasts or templates.  If they're in Glide mode (i.e. like Jump Infantry) you can blast and template away.

[ChaosRising]

My own answer to the daemon prince issue is S8+ weapons.

 

My experience with fighting daemons has been almost exclusively against a Great Unclean One, who, more often than not, has Iron Arm on him.

 

Fortunately I had the foresight to equip my entire 9th Dev. Squad with 4 missile launchers (krak missiles can be pretty useful against big creatures).

 

My entire 10th Dev. Squad has been similarly upgraded to take lascannons to the exclusion of all else, so I have at least 4 chances to wound on a 5+ even with Iron Arm in effect. Add in a Nephilim with a twin-linked lascannon for another round of killing power.

 

I also recently got hold of a Vindicator - mainly good at making things go squish, but who am I to complain about a 4+ to wound against a T10 Great Unclean One?

 

Most of these loadouts were prepared with Tyranids, DE, Eldare, Orks, Guard, and similar armies in mind. Nonetheless, I find them to be quite useful against big nasties.

 

Just my own thoughts, should they be of any help.

[Polythemus]

Great unclean one can be tough, but he doesn't have quite the same threat as a demon prince with wings, which has a 24" charging potential and especially the nurgle version that gets the 2+ cover save. I hope that your demon loving friend doesn't unlock the keys to the vault for this thing. (*shudder*)

[ChaosRising]

I don't think he will. He alternates between Dark Eldar and Chaos Daemons, usually led by a Great Unclean One (points permitting) and sometimes backed up by a Bloodthirster if he can manage it. Well-aimed, disciplined fire is the answer.