Beating the Worst - Centurions

[Captain Idaho]

Centurions. A nice shooting unit but with Codex Inquisition cheese and combining additional stuff like Tigurius and Coteaz and Eternal Warriors units cheesing the cheese out of them, then we have a very real problem coping with them.

 

So let's discuss how we are going to cope with the invisible, prescience, "I've been expecting you" Centurion squad.

 

I've been thinking of cross fire to get shots on the support characters and Centurions and spamming shots from higher AP shots that the "tanking" character is trying to weather. Barrage weapons too will circumnavigate tanking shenanigans. I've seen 2 Thunderfires obliterate Terminators thanks to 4 hits on the blast templates.

 

And Ultramarines can get the most accurate orbital bombardment outside Storm of Fire/Prescience if you want to wipe out the squad in one turn ;)

 

Practically speaking, armies relying on melta might struggle. You have to get close under fire and deep strike could be a death trap.

 

And we need to consider anti psyker defence or we can't even use barrage weapons.

 

I'd use lascannons (I have 6 in my list) and plasma guns to hit the squad from both sides. Psychic Skriek is pretty good too. Exorcists have a special mention here. Three can bombard the squad from different directions. Celestine can keep getting into assault too ;)

 

If the opponent is getting invisibility off, then perhaps cheap transports and vehicles getting in the way might help. If you concentrate on everything else and objectives then you can hopefully win under fire.

 

Aside from that, if you get a Dread into assault then even with invisibility I'd imagine it would be difficult to kill it, thus ruining the main reason for the squad's purpose - shooting.

 

So lend me your wisdom brothers and sisters, so I might add it to the Codex for the betterment of all.

[knife&fork]

Not sure what the problem is exactly? At least not in maelstrom missions as taking apart the (always expensive) Coteaz castle is pretty much the same as it ever was, regardless of what kind of shooty unit he's teamed up with. 

 

If he's not embarked on something he's slow and eventually vulnerable, embarked and he can't manifest any useful powers.  If he doesn't roll the specific powers or flunk/perils even once we can pounce on him with barrages, fast shooting or a charge. SnP means no overwatch and shooty centurions can't fight themselves out of a wet paper bag. Coteaz is a squishy T3 human.

 

 

Creative use of tank shocks can also work.

[Captain Idaho]

I believe the problem arises when people added Coteaz, an Eternal Warrior Chapter Master to take the wounds, Tigurius to all but guarantee invisibility and then romp up the table with grav cannons killing almost everything in one volley.

 

It's very anti Space Marines/Chaos Marines/this board in general.

 

I consider using a Knight to be entertaining and reasonable. It will only likely be shot for a turn, maybe two. It can't be immobilised and relying on 6s to glance it to death is far from ideal. Support it with other aggressive elements and you have a good chance of making assault and can use Stomp to off set invisibility.

[Ishagu]

Well, as someone who has used this unit I can tell you that a Chaos or a Space Marine force in general would greatly struggle. Grey Knights suffer even more.

 

I recently played a game and it was even super effective at dealing with flyers, taking out a Heldrake in a single turn of shooting despite the Invul/Jink. Dealing with it.... an Imperial Knight can potentially stomp the unit out of existence with luck. It's why I bring one of my own ;-)

 

An example of the damage potential of this unit: 10 Tac Marines - gone in a single shooting phase. Land Raider - gone in a single shooting phase. Stormshield terminators - gone in a single shooting phase, Wraithknight/Riptide - gone in a single shooting phase, Swarmlord and hive Guard - gone in a single shooting phase (I loved my opponent's face when this happened recently)

 

I can see why Idaho is concerned. The unit creates a 48" bubble where nothing dares to enter. 25 Prescienced Grav Cannon Shots at full range, alongside 5 Hurricane Bolters, and a Chapter Master able to dish out Str8 AP2 hits in CC, an Orbital Bombardment and a 3+ Invul. Deepstiking plasma/grav is usually a great way to alpha kill Centurions, but with Coteaz that weakness is removed - and because you roll a 6 to hit, volume of fire is out as well.

 

Let's be clear - This is not quite what the Screamerstar was in 6th, but it has horrifying damage potential against most armies, and is immune to the typical methods of dealing with a unit like this: eg str 10 barrage templates.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah you were one of the guys who scared me! :)

 

Invisibility and Coteaz really tops it off. It means our best counter, a drop of plasma guns on both flanks, is killed, or weakened massively because of the increased distance between them.

 

Obviously if I got first turn then that would be a chance to barrage those Centurions with my Chapter Master. Could win the game in one turn.

[knife&fork]

Coteaz

Chaptermaster with shield eternal

Tigurius

5*centurion devastarors with grav cannons and amps

 

That starts at 915 pts...

 

So half your army (or more) in 8 models, only 1 invul and zero overwatch?

[minigun762]

I believe the problem arises when people added Coteaz, an Eternal Warrior Chapter Master to take the wounds, Tigurius to all but guarantee invisibility and then romp up the table with grav cannons killing almost everything in one volley.

 

 

But at that point, how much does that unit cost? When it comes to a giant deathstar like that, I think there is a tipping point where trying to kill it becomes pointless and you instead try and tarpit it or deny it's use. Block it with Rhinos, Maybe assault it with something cheap or something with a decent inv save to tank the EWCM's attacks and keep the unit from shooting. 

 

EDIT: So apparently it costs 915 points haha. 

[Ishagu]

Screamerstar is 800+ points. Real deathstars aren't cheap :-P

 

It does require careful, sometimes defensive play. I once struggled against a cultist horde army loaded with spawn.

You could cut it down to 3 Centurions for similar effect, though not quite as guaranteed to kill everything in a single shooting phase...

 

I will admit I run the bigger force in a 2.5k game. At 2k it's only 3 Centurions, CM and Coteaz....

[knife&fork]

But this one have more weaknesses than most. 

 

Let's not go into the numerous ways non marine armies can mess with it. A good way to deal with a Coteaz castle is simply to bring in many units from reserves at once, but 13" away or out of LoS. He'll kill one or maybe two units in his turn but becomes very vulnerable to a counter charge (and shooting) when it's my turn again. 

 

Push push push.

[L30n1d4s]

I think fighting fire with fire may be the key... by that, I mean probably the single best weapon against Centurions is, ironically, grav weapons! ;)

 

Now, you could use Centurions with Grav Cannons/Amps or Drop Pod Sternguard with combi-Gravs. Let's look at each:

 

I - Centurions - A six man Squad with Grav Cannons and Prescience support (say from an allied Inquisitor) only costs about 550 points and put out 30 Grav shots a turn... against a 5 man Centurion Star with Coteaz, Tigurius, and a tanking Chapter Master and Invisibility cast on it, this unit gets on average 10-11 hits (due to twin-linked Snapshots) and 9-10 wounds which should kill either the supporting Psykers (i.e.Tigurius and Coteaz), kill the tanking Chapter Master, or kill 4-5 Centurions, depending on what angle you are shooting at the Centurion Star with and how the Look out SIr rolls go. Anyway you cut it, you are taking out one of the three "legs" of the Centurion Star by removing its Psychic support, removing its tanking/CC ability, or removing its firepower by killing the Centurions directly.

 

II - Drop Pod Sternguard - A 9 man UM Sternguard squad with Drop Pod, combi-gravs, and attached Tigurius costs around 500 points. Drop this unit outside the 12" Coteaz "I've been expecting you" bubble, disembark, then use Tigurius to cast Endurance on the squad, making them Relentless (also FNP(4+) for better survivability next turn)... combine this with activation of the Devastator Doctrine to re-roll Snap Shots, giving you 27 Grav shots at 18", about 9 hits, 8-9 wounds, and very similar damage to the enemy Centurion star as described above in the Centurion option... if it does not kill all the enemy Centurions out right (which it can do, with proper positioning of the Drop Pod), then it should at least kill most of the supporting characters that the Death Star requires to operate.

 

 

An alternative to Grav Weapons is using the Psychic power approach... more specifically, using the Telekinesis discipline. If you can get the Objuration Mechanicus power off on the Centurion star, then every one of their shooting attacks has the Gets Hot! rule... that means, with 5 Grav cannon shots per model per turn, there is a pretty solid chance that Centurions will start wounding themselves to death.

 

Also in the Telekinesis Discipline is Psychic Maelstrom ability... used by a Librarian/Tigurius/Sevrin Loth coming out of a Drop Pod (with an attached Inquisitor with a Psyocculom for BS10, since they are shooting at a unit with Psykers) turn 1 before your opponent can cast Invisibility, this has an almost guaranteed hit (again, BS10 for max 2" scatter) and, since you pick the angle, you can make sure the EW Chapter Master can't tank the hits for the rest of the unit... since it is S10 AP1, you are almost guaranteed to wound and, except for the Chapter Master, every wound inflicted against the Centurion star will cause ID, taking out an entire Centurion, Tigurius, or Coteaz model.

[Captain Idaho]

Good points all.

 

I particularly like the idea of Drop Pod down greater than 12" away. With the threat of a barrage of shots from the fore, the opponent must consider taking the hits on the Centurions or be at risk from losing the expensive support characters.

 

Combat squads is good here. 2 Tactical squads can produce 4 units each with a plasma weapon (combi plasma) and krak grenade. Killing more than one of these before being in rapid fire range is not likely for the Centurions.

 

Invisibility is still a chore but again it relies on getting the power, throwing enough warp charges in to ensure it is cast with the inherent risk of perils. Tigurius mitigates this somewhat but it's still not a guarantee. A pair of Inquisitor (count as serf Astropaths?) Add to the warp charge pull for attempts to block, making it more likely the opponent will risk perils to get the power off.

[knife&fork]

Yeah, while Tigurius can re-roll a failed psychic test he can't re-roll just failed dice. If you want the power to go off with some certainty it also means risking perils for every turn they are on the board.

 

Having enough warpcharge is not going to be a problem with inq allies.

[Leonaides]

Charge it with a scout squad and some terminators... everyone ends up dead, but you've lost 300pts of models to his 900.

[Axagoras]

well since we are talking grav cannons its only a 30 inch threat range (24+6 inch move) and even with tiggy its only a 75% chance of getting invisability, that is NOT reliable enough to get it especially in a 3+ round tournament. And yes that is the math with rerolls from already having the spell and tiggy reroll. but my answer to it is my 2 chapter masters with their ravenwing biker support, 2 tl orbitals, 7 wounds to eat shots who can jink, a rad grenade to make them all t4, and a guy to eat the challenge and one master to 1 shot the centurions. math is that the centurions deal 23.7 wounds to my squad (hitting on 3s rerolling wounding on 3s rerolling[6 guys in 3+ 2 in 2+]) then after 3+ saves from sheilds on the chapter masters or jinks on the riders (sure tiggy can get ignores cover but once again he wont have every spell all of the time) thats 7.9 wounds, after fnp thats 5.2 wounds, with LOS that leaves both chapter masters at 2-3 wounds and i only lose 1-2 ravenwing. and my star costs just a bit less then that star :3

[hornywingythingy]

The real problem can come if they go with gk psykers for gate too, then it has mobility and can (debateably) gate out of cc. Have played it and beaten it with CSM/demons. Invulnerable screamerstar basically stoped it doing anything cos he didn't roll gate. Basically you want s10 ap2 shooting at greater than 24" range or a really tough unit with little or no armour save. Guard blob with azrael might work too, if you can move it forward fast enough to pen them in.

[Captain Idaho]

I reckon I could beat it if using my all comers tournament list if invisibility isn't a factor. If it is then things get more complicated.

[minigun762]

Not counting invisibility, plasma cannons seem to be a tailor made solution. No armor saves and wounding on 2's with a greater range.

[Teetengee]

Counting invisibility, I think the answer might be guard or ork allies, they lose less accuracy (as they have less to start with) and pour out lots of shots. Daemonettes might work too just lots of them.(At even points you can dedicate 100 easily enough losing only one unit per turn and still come out ahead even if something goes horribly wrong).

Guard: 50 pts, 10 man squad 1 shot each is 10/6/6/6=.0463 wounds, 2 shots is twice that. (assuming toughness 5 and no fnp)

900 pts guardmen squads is 18 times 10 men squads. First turn you lose a unit. Then you fire back with half of them (due to range) .35 wounds done. Next turn you lose a unit. You now fire with all of them 2.2 wounds dealt so far. Next turn you lose a unit. A third of your units are now in double shot range. 2 wounds past now. Next turn you lose a unit. Half your units are in double shot range. 6 wounds through so far. Next turn you lose a unit. 7 units in double shot range. 4 wounds through. Now you charge. They are tarpitted for the rest of the game and you have a ton of guard to shoot at other stuff. (And that is without orders).

[Dam13n]

I'm tempted to get some Nurgle Spawn at some point.  T6 to soak up the Hurricane Bolters, no armour so Grav Cannons need 6s to wound as well.  Combo of fast moving and no overwatch from the Centurions or the attached characters (as the entire unit is slow and purposeful) should allow for a Tarpit.

 

Alpha strike with White Scars also comes to mind.  Khan plus a Bike Command Squad with 4 Grav Guns and an Apothecary.  Means no "expecting you", in their face turn 1 with 12 grav shots.  Add some more bike squads with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-grav for 9 more Grav Shots each.

 

Speed should allow you to flank the unit so they can't tank everything on the Chapter Master.

 

Once weakened, they should present less of a threat.

[Captain Idaho]

What methods do people have for mitigating the damage they can deal whilst waiting for a chance to hit back when invisibility flops?

 

Judicious use of combat squads. Line of sight and movement blocking using the armoured corpses of vehicles works.

[Azash]

Centurions are best killed by centurions honestly. Forewarning is a single charge 4++ invulm, endurance is eternal warrior and a 4+ FNP and two charges. Invisibility is just beast mode. Any template weapon is gonna fail cause its large bases and multiple wounds. So you may do 2 wounds with a plasma cannon but if they save one its still on a single wound off a model.

 

To reliably kill the latter its prescience plus grav cents. Honestly I use prescience as a decoy to get my opponent to try and stop that then go for one of the main three.

 

Barring that get outside the box a psychic shriek librarian attack. Hallucination is another good way to stimy them. With tiggy and Coteaz and three cents we are looking at a 525 pt squad...if it doesn't get to shoot every round from round two on its a major blow to my list.

 

All grav is a 30" kill bubble be it bikers or cents. The opponents that have faired the best against me are the ones that avoided the kill bubble. They used speed to get around or a combination of deployment and reserves. Not sure speed is an option for marine armies (dark Eldar with shimmer shields is good tho) so the latter is your best bet. Group deploy to the rear and one side to force the cents to chase you then use reserves to pop out along an edge out of range.

 

Although with 30" kill bubble becareful. I use the threat to heard my opponent what ends up killing them is the bikers or the knight titan.

[Captain Idaho]

If the opponent doesn't get invisibility (or I go first) I'll just drop an Orbital bombardment on them and laugh as I kill the squad and render the Chapter Master looking sheepishly at their smoking remains! ;)

[Tangamarine]

I nearby Dark Angels powerfield generator greatly increases the survivibility of each unit, which may result in the targeted unit being relatively unscathed (Unless of course they end up using 5 of them, then you are pushing your luck :P ) The only downside is that has such a short range of effect they could always fire at another unit.

[*Furyou Miko]

Does Expecting You work on all reserves, or just deep strikers?

 

Could use outflanking melta-minions to get around their cover shenanigans. Otherwise just pound away with a pair of Exorcists. :D

[Ishagu]

It's any unit coming from reserve that ends within 12" of Coteaz's unit.