Beating the Worst - Centurions

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

There is no allowance to draw Line of Sight from a firing point other than for the purpose of firing a weapon. Thus I've Been Expecting You ceases to work if you put Coteaz in a transport, even if it has firing points.

I see you've never met a WAAC RAI fan.

[Sheesh Mode]

Personally haven't played against one of those yet. 

 

They seem like boogey men.

[Azash]

Just a thought. Wouldn't a chariot unit be effective against grav centurions. The owning player could wait to see how many hits come through and then decide whether the character should tank them with an invuln or make the cents roll against the chariot as a vehicle.

 

Seems like it might work. Then move into close combat, typically whatever is on a chariot is good at close combat.

 

Anyone try this? The only thing that makes me think this may not work is the sheer volume of shooting attacks grav cents can make.

[Captain Idaho]

Not many chariots in the Ultramarines armoury but Chaos can get a whole bunch too. Might be worth considering.

[Axagoras]

eh chaos chariots just get shot at by lots of medium strentgh shots and go down fast since the rider doesnt have a good enough save to tank (right?)

[knife&fork]

How easy is it to get a decent invul from the new daemonology powers? Never seen a chaos chariot in 40k... 

[brother_contagion]

Since I'm a Chaos player I'd want some advice on how I can deal with Centurions in general. In one game I reduced a 3 man squad to 1 with 5 Chosen w/ Plasma Guns, and tried to finish the last one off in CC with my Demon Prince but we both forgot the rule that Slow and Purposeful models can't overwatch, and my DP went down before he could swing =/

 

This deathstar would be a nightmare for me and is why I avoid playing in tournaments, wanting to avoid deathstars in general and Knights too. So, at least for Chaos Marines it sounds like maxed out Cultists (preferably changed into zombies for Fearless and Feel No Pain) and Helbrutes (Plasma Cannon?) in the Helcult formation and Spawns would be an answer to that.

 

I was also thinking of two Relic Predators with Executioners and Lascannon sponsons could deal with that unit and still be viable to take on other units, but I guess to use FW models would have to be outside of a tournament?

[knife&fork]

Since I'm a Chaos player I'd want some advice on how I can deal with Centurions in general. In one game I reduced a 3 man squad to 1 with 5 Chosen w/ Plasma Guns, and tried to finish the last one off in CC with my Demon Prince but we both forgot the rule that Slow and Purposeful models can't overwatch, and my DP went down before he could swing =/

 

 

Everyone seem to forget this the first couple of games. Probably because it's the first SnP unit ever in a marine dex? 

It honestly makes a great difference, just charge them with just about anything. 

 

Your obliterators should outshoot them at distance?

 

 

 

EDIT:

Centurion bullying!

http://i.imgur.com/tYlm5UK.jpg?1

[brother_contagion]

 

Since I'm a Chaos player I'd want some advice on how I can deal with Centurions in general. In one game I reduced a 3 man squad to 1 with 5 Chosen w/ Plasma Guns, and tried to finish the last one off in CC with my Demon Prince but we both forgot the rule that Slow and Purposeful models can't overwatch, and my DP went down before he could swing =/

 

 

Everyone seem to forget this the first couple of games. Probably because it's the first SnP unit ever in a marine dex? 

It honestly makes a great difference, just charge them with just about anything. 

 

Your obliterators should outshoot them at distance?

 

 

True, I just converted a unit of 3 Obliterators but haven't got the chance to use them in a game, would like 3 more. I could try this next time I come across Centurions again.

[knife&fork]

How about that warpsmith? 

 

I know he's not a popular pick but I honestly think he's starting to be worth it.  -1 cover somewhere isn't bad but what I particularly had in mind his ability to grant 'gets hot' to a unit. Since it's not a psychic power it's a lot more likely to go off. Do you roll to hit with it? 

The ability isn't likely to kill off entire units, but a HP or wound here and there adds up quickly. If you can scare an opponent into not shooting for a round he pretty much paid for himself already.

[Captain Idaho]

Wow a Warpsmith can do that? With all the shooting cheese in the game, I wonder why no one has suggested that sooner.

 

Probably Internet wisdom...

[Stickeh]

Centurions don't really give a damn about -1 cover, what with rocking a 2+ and normally a psyker or DA PFG giving them 4++. Unless that was posted in the wrong thread I don't see how a warp smith could help much.

[knife&fork]

Wow a Warpsmith can do that? With all the shooting cheese in the game, I wonder why no one has suggested that sooner.

 

Probably Internet wisdom...

 

Well he's 110 pts for a 2W model in a codex that used to really need the HQ slots, back when psychic powers were a lot easier to get through.

But with daemons now being battle brothers it's something I would try as a chaos player. 

[Captain Idaho]

Centurions don't really give a damn about -1 cover, what with rocking a 2+ and normally a psyker or DA PFG giving them 4++. Unless that was posted in the wrong thread I don't see how a warp smith could help much.

Oh yeah they wouldn't be really useful on Centurions, unless they weren't grav cannon based (Imperial Fists in other words).

 

I just meant they were useful in general for spoiling those cover saves for some armies.

 

Maybe. :)

[knife&fork]

The -1 in cover only applies to piece of terrain (like loyalist techmarine in reverse) . Giving 'gets hot' was the interesting part when it comes to centurions. 

 

Should work quite nicely against serpents as well considering how often they are forced to jink these days. Rolling 1s happen a lot now. 

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah and Broadsides with all those missiles...

[incinerator950]

If I didn't want OS more, I'd be playing unbound with a warpsmith.

[brother_contagion]

Wow a Warpsmith can do that? With all the shooting cheese in the game, I wonder why no one has suggested that sooner.

 

Probably Internet wisdom...

 

It might be because it has an 18" range and it only affects vehicles =/

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm. Good but not brilliant. No good against Centurions.

[brother_contagion]

As long as the Chapter Master doesn't have Terminator or Artificer Armor, you could try using 3 Maulerfiends giving you 24 S8 shots, and if you have 3 lvl 3 Sorcerers casting Gift of Contagion on the unit to make them T4 so once the CM is gone, any failed save is an instant death. Definitely not the best strategy but something that is possible.

 

Simply tarpitting them would probably be best.

[Azash]

As far as Obliterators go at least in my experience that are not the answer.

 

Speaking from the perspective of the player with the centurions I have never lost a single model to obliterators.

 

Now to be sure when you have a 2+, 4++, 5+ FNP, T5, 2W which I had in one game its gonna make it pretty difficult on any unit. Essentially if the cent player can get that 4++ invuln on them it makes oblits a bad choice. Also if they are running with Coteaz it means the Oblits have to drop more than 12" away limiting the damage they can do.

 

Effectively it limits the weapons they can use on the centurions. It takes away there best weapon the TL PG. The 50 mil bases on the cents makes it harder to get a lot of models under a blast. So if you spread out you really limit the effectiveness. Also most C:CSM players take mark of nurgle for the T5 so they can't be ID'ed. Which helps centurions since they ignore the models T value. Mark of Tzeentch would be a better option if you know your going up against grav.

 

Since oblits can't use the same weapon twice in a row it rules out dropping at range and plinking with the LC. Most oblits drop and use PC's on turn 2 then move up to try and be in a position to get those PG shots off to finish the cents.

 

Against three oblits firing PC's my cents will take a single wound. The obliterators never make it to turn 3.

 

Now I also have a nasty habit of running cents and a knight titan in the same list which gives a chaos player with oblits a no win choice. Whatever they don't go after wipes them next turn and both units force them to get close on there initial deep strike.

 

T5 oblits is mathematically pre determined failure. 15 shots (with rerolls of some type usually), 13 hits, 13 wounds, 4 saves, 9 remaining wounds for a 6 wound pool with grav, 15 HB hits, 5 wounds, 4.5 saves, .5 remaining wounds. Oblits firing average case with PC, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5 saves, 1.5 remaining wounds on a pool with 6+ (usually ic's in a squad). Maybe a single centurion goes down.

 

The odds get worse cause SM players tend to wrap special characters into the squad to get benefits. Now with space wolves allowing allied drop pods to drop them in...oblits are useless. Hold the cents back in the second wave till the oblits come in on turn 2. Drop the cents in pop out and wipe them.

[knife&fork]

As far as Obliterators go at least in my experience that are not the answer.

 

 

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. 

 

Fist of all I don't think it was suggested by anyone that obliterators should get into a close range firefight, and win, against a grav cent sqaud that's 2-4 times as expensive excluding special characters. 

If anything they are part of a solution to break down a squad over several turns, get a few wounds on a cent squad and it starts to drop rapidly in effectiveness. Chaos unlike most MEQ also has access to things like cultists and plague zombies where gravcannons suddenly become the the worst weapon in the codex. 

 

Podding centurions against chaos would probably be the dumbest move ever. Sure you kill one unit good, but then what? Your 300+ pt unit can then be tarpitted and killed by just about anything in a CSM list. I'll be honest in that it will probably work great the first couple of games until your opponent learns to deploy properly and counter reserve, but it's not a long term viable setup and I wouldn't expect it to work against experienced players more than once. 

[minigun762]

Oblits, especially T5, might be better off with assaulting the Centurions, especially if the have VotLW.

[Azash]

Obliterators have 2 weapons that function beyond cent range and they can't use the same weapon twice in a row. So they have to drop in a 24-30" range due to scatter in order to engage. The kill bubble on cents is 30". They can't pick them off at range unless there has been some FAQ I haven't heard about.

 

The tactic using the drop pod is not to drop the cents on top of an opponent. Its to garuntee deployment so 90% of the opponents occupied board is in that 30" kill bubble. If that's the heavy support that's supporting a drop pod assault all they have to do is focus on key units. You don't send cents to mow down blobs that's generally what the tactical squads dropping in are for.

 

Nurgle or Tzeentch oblits run between 228-234. It will take ay least two of these two be effective against cents so 500+. Or if you want two or three sorcers one unit of oblits bit 200-300 pts of sorcers to make them work 400-500 pts.

 

If you think it can work go for it. I've played against it and either the cents chew em up or they occupy so many of the points in countering the other units run rough shod.

 

In C:CSM the best option I see is swarming them with cultists. The difficulty is how to get those cultists in cc since they don't last long with the T-shirt save. Another good option would be to ally in something fast like flesh hounds and go for cc that way.

[brother_contagion]

Obliterators have 2 weapons that function beyond cent range and they can't use the same weapon twice in a row. So they have to drop in a 24-30" range due to scatter in order to engage. The kill bubble on cents is 30". They can't pick them off at range unless there has been some FAQ I haven't heard about.

 

The tactic using the drop pod is not to drop the cents on top of an opponent. Its to garuntee deployment so 90% of the opponents occupied board is in that 30" kill bubble. If that's the heavy support that's supporting a drop pod assault all they have to do is focus on key units. You don't send cents to mow down blobs that's generally what the tactical squads dropping in are for.

 

Nurgle or Tzeentch oblits run between 228-234. It will take ay least two of these two be effective against cents so 500+. Or if you want two or three sorcers one unit of oblits bit 200-300 pts of sorcers to make them work 400-500 pts.

 

If you think it can work go for it. I've played against it and either the cents chew em up or they occupy so many of the points in countering the other units run rough shod.

 

In C:CSM the best option I see is swarming them with cultists. The difficulty is how to get those cultists in cc since they don't last long with the T-shirt save. Another good option would be to ally in something fast like flesh hounds and go for cc that way.

 

It's not about DSing Obliterators, that's not what I was talking about. Simply taking shots at them at range, they have Lascannons and Plasma Cannons to fire and effectively still be out of range (36" for Plasma Cannon +6" move = a max of 42", even if they didn't move they'd be well out of the Centurion's range). For a unit of Centurions beefed up like that, all you need to do is force them to make multiple saves, not necessarily using high AP weapons since they'll have the tanking CM. The only benefit to high AP against him is to force him to make his 3++ if he has Terminator or Artificer Armor so he won't have the benefit of a 2+ save against low AP weapons. It's simply forcing lots of saves or tarpiting them, and a big blob or two of Plague Zombies and Spawn would do that easily enough with enough points to spare for other units to keep things like Tacticals busy from killing off the blob squads.

 

EDIT: Also if a Nurgle Sorcerer casts Gift of Contagion (48" spell) and rolls to reduce their toughness at least once, something like an Obliterator's Lascannon would negate their FnP, and twice if two cast it on the unit to make their Plasma Cannons ignore their FnP (unlikely to get it twice in a row, but possible to get it once).