The Legion for you... Community Assistance Thread

[ThatOneMarshal]

Ah, so that's what Greek fire did!

[Knight of the Raven]

I didnt really like guys in fiction that kills innocents

Every legion, even "good guys" like Salamanders, is guilty of wanton genocide upon anything that's not human, not human enough, or doesn't want to bow the knee to the most bloodthirsty tyrant in human history. Oops!

[ThatOneMarshal]

Those were not innonecents ;).

[Zebulon]

Every legion, even "good guys" like Salamanders, is guilty of wanton genocide upon anything that's not human, not human enough, or doesn't want to bow the knee to the most bloodthirsty tyrant in human history. Oops!

I am not really disagreeing, but I can't think offhand of the Salamanders ever having been portrayed as acting cruelly or dishonourably. Can you name an example?

[1ncarnadine]

 

Every legion, even "good guys" like Salamanders, is guilty of wanton genocide upon anything that's not human, not human enough, or doesn't want to bow the knee to the most bloodthirsty tyrant in human history. Oops!

I am not really disagreeing, but I can't think offhand of the Salamanders ever having been portrayed as acting cruelly or dishonourably. Can you name an example?

 

 

It's more implied than anything else. Just consider what they are: a force of highly aggressive, jacked-up supermen who pacify worlds with flamethrowers. They draw the line at chemical flamethrowers though! But yeah. Death by fire is not pleasant. Lots of screaming and burning.

[ThatOneMarshal]

 

 

 

Every legion, even "good guys" like Salamanders, is guilty of wanton genocide upon anything that's not human, not human enough, or doesn't want to bow the knee to the most bloodthirsty tyrant in human history. Oops!

I am not really disagreeing, but I can't think offhand of the Salamanders ever having been portrayed as acting cruelly or dishonourably. Can you name an example?

It's more implied than anything else. Just consider what they are: a force of highly aggressive, jacked-up supermen who pacify worlds with flamethrowers. They draw the line at chemical flamethrowers though! But yeah. Death by fire is not pleasant. Lots of screaming and burning.

Besy example I can think of is from ww2 movies like saving private Ryan and Fury. Fury had a particularly brutal scene with an unfortunate soul whose tank caught on fire.

 

That's actually a really interesting point on the salamanders though. I think everyone gets really caught up on the idea of them being the nice guys when in reality they just aren't as mean as the others. And that's why I love war hammer, in most setting the "good guys" would be considered the bad guys in almost every other setting be it sci-if, fantasy, or modern.

[Knight of the Raven]

From what little spoilers I found of Promethean Sun, Vulkan wipes out a human feral world just because eldar exodites were protecting them from the proto-dark eldar. And remember that Salamanders protect the Imperium's people, and that definition doesn't include any alien. The only reason a Salamander wouldn't burn a bunch of xenos babies alive is that it's a waste of promethium and crushing their heads with his boot saves fuel.

The Great Crusade was started to reunite humanity, not make a Star Trek Federation or the old Galactic Republic. Aliens are not welcome.

Those were not innonecents .

Ah, the magic of not considering your enemies people.

[ElectricPaladin]

From what little spoilers I found of Promethean Sun, Vulkan wipes out a human feral world just because eldar exodites were protecting them from the proto-dark eldar. And remember that Salamanders protect the Imperium's people, and that definition doesn't include any alien. The only reason a Salamander wouldn't burn a bunch of xenos babies alive is that it's a waste of promethium and crushing their heads with his boot saves fuel.

The Great Crusade was started to reunite humanity, not make a Star Trek Federation or the old Galactic Republic. Aliens are not welcome.

Those were not innonecents .

Ah, the magic of not considering your enemies people.

Basically, the Salamaners were still a branch of the military of an aggressive and uncompromising expansionist empire with a sense of manifest destiny that precluded negotiation or accepting outsiders. The difference is that they were willing to accept more casualties in return for preventing civilian casualties - and before Vulkan, this grew out of more of a self destructive drive than out of any moral code. This is, in a sense, noble - especially since they were willing to view humans under the rule of petty dictators or xenos as civilians - and the "nobility" grew as the Salamanders developed their own identity after Vulkan was found. But none of that makes them "nice."

[Doctor Perils]

 

Every legion, even "good guys" like Salamanders, is guilty of wanton genocide upon anything that's not human, not human enough, or doesn't want to bow the knee to the most bloodthirsty tyrant in human history. Oops!

I am not really disagreeing, but I can't think offhand of the Salamanders ever having been portrayed as acting cruelly or dishonourably. Can you name an example?

 

They aren't ever specifically stated as being cruel or dishonourable, because all GW and BL writing is pretty much done from an in universe point of view, generally the Imperium. From their point of view the salamanders are "good guys" because they might stand between a bolt shell and a cowering human. Everyone else (even people from the Imperium) are more likely to actually have fired the bolt.

 

But that won't stop the salamander from happily crushing the human with his bare hands if he discovers any sort of taint on the human (traitor, xenos, daemon, or not liking the emperor quite enough). First he'll take his helm off to give the human the fright of his life with his glowing red eyes.

[Calas Typhon]

Essentially Salamanders are the same as every other Astartes, a hammer for the Emperor to wield to shape the Imperium for human use. So yes, they are capable of as much violence and zeal as any other Legion, it just is not shown really at all because we are focused too much on the good guy image.

 

I do not want to rant about their image in the Horus Heresy and Warhammer 40k when it comes to the actions they take to defend humanity. However, it has to be said, they are not portrayed as the Vengeful Astartes they should be, instead they are shown in my opinion as Human Rights activists out to throw strategy and tactic out the window to protect even those that should not really be protected. This is where the nice guy image is brought in, and it should not really be cultivated that much. Lets be honest, they are the most violent creations in the Universe, if they have a target they will destroy that target with plasma and fire. We do not see enough of this and we are focused too much on the good guy image.

 

All in all they are capable of destruction by fire, bolter and blade. They would not think twice about destroying humanity that is corrupted or humanity that can't be helped (what the hell Damnation of Pythos and that one Meduson story) and they sure as hell would not work, hold back or ignore xenos corruption.

[Knight of the Raven]

It's relatively easy to write them as "corrupted" into believing those too weak or cowardly to fight for themselves deserve no help or even deserve to be killed too. Same thing for Space Wolves and Raven Guard, and the latter can even have such a successor chapter if you want.

 

One review of Rebirth mentioned the Salamanders were basically "FORGET STRATEGY AND COVER THE CIVILIANS WITH YOUR BODIES!" which, while it probably makes people fuzzy inside, is hardly worthy of the best soldiers of humanity.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah… it sounds like the point we are trying to make about Salamanders is kind of being undermined by some lazy black-and-white writing.

 

I stick by my original point: what makes them "good" - or at least "better" - is a willingness to accept greater casualties in return for protecting mortals that are loyal to the Empire or might still be saved. Unlike the traitors - and most of the loyalists - they don't forget that they were made to build an empire for mortals to live in. That's noble, but it doesn't make them "nice." They're the humble self-sacrificing marines, not the happy friendly marines.

[southpawgrammar]

Hi folks!

I don't know which legion to choose. I will be buying The Horus Heresy: Betrayal at Calth to begin with. I do like Space Wolves but is that a good legion to choose? First, There is no rules for them, right? Second, how will they look when forge world release them? will they be the cartoonish wolf viking clowns from 40k or will they be more like their brother marines? The fenrisian culture shouldn't made a huge impact yet, right? Could I use "modern" space wolves shoulder pads?

[ThatOneMarshal]

Hello southpaw gamer!

 

You will be happy to know that forgeworld has done justice to the space wolves. For evidence I would go ahead and check out the Horus heresy weekender thread. Check page 1 and there should be a slew of info on the space wolves that forgeworlds working on. They have taken more of an influence from the Norse and Celtic tribes I believe rather than wolf everywhere.

 

I would be a little wary of starting right now because the book will be real eased unfortunately in about later of this year. However if you love them that shouldn't stop you from buying some generic stuff like tactical marines and tanks. If you want some inspiration I would urge you to check out Dantay_xv space wolves thread which has a similar way to how forgeworld will be doing there models.

 

Have you read any of the space wolves 30k books? I heard great things about prospero burns and some others. Might help you decide if ou like them because forgeworlds basing off that I believe.

 

I believe you can use 40k iconography for the legions. Though I would be a little with the actual shoulder pads because their different from MK 4. I believe they use the same icons though.

 

Any other legions you like as well?

 

EDIT: weekender thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317985-hh-weekender-2016-thread-titan-secutarii-pg-56/page-81?do=findComment&comment=4310398

[southpawgrammar]

Thank's mate for taking your time. I think your right. It's better to wait with the wolves. It will not be a problem to find another legion

I love the books! They are the reason I return to the hobby.

[Bmseifer]

So... me and a couple of friends ordered some BaC boxes and will take the plunge into heresy.

 

My legion of choice is so far the Sons of Horus because of their color scheme. I play Iron Hands in 40k and even though it would be convenient to play them in 30k too, I would very much welcome the choir of painting something else than black.

 

As for loyalist/traitors, if I'd go loyalist then it would be Iron Hands for the reason stated above (convenience of using models for both systems). If I go traitor it would be to also have a Chaos army for 40k(I dislike the spikey models in 40k)

 

So help a brother out! What's the Pro's and Con's with SoH?

[Lord Asvaldir]

Purely tactics wise, Sons of Horus are great, especially after the most recent update. If you like a really aggressive, close assault army SoH probably do that better than any other legion, because they have a bonus to assaults and shooting at short range, plus a reserve reroll to help make sure you units show up on time. Really there are no drawbacks to SoH, a long ranged gunline style army really doesn't make use of their tactics but pretty much any other list will. 

 

When it comes to lore to each their own of course, but I'd say it's hard to not like Sons of Horus, they are the best of the best, one of the emperor's favored legions lead by his favorite son with a very long list of achievements, which makes their dramatic fall to being the arch traitors all the more interesting. Plus you can of course run a loyalist Sons of Horus army, there's the loyalist character Loken who's not only great rules wise but has a whole bunch of character build up in the first two Horus Heresy novels. 

 

For modelling you've got some great opportunities, if you want to use them as CSM counts as sometimes you can load up on trophies/plumes on your models while avoiding spikes, and still have a semi-CSM look. For painting I can't really help with the green shade, painting has never been my expertise but it sure does look great. 

 

In short I think SoH are just a great legion, unlike some legions you have a lot of variety when it comes to picking units, as a long of units work well with their tactics. Definitely high on my list for my 2nd legion choices.  

[ElectricPaladin]

I agree that the SoH are pretty cool. I'm really tempted, myself, to get some SoH models to paint up as loyal blackshields and use either the Blackshields or the SoH rules for them according to my whims.

[Bmseifer]

And what are the Pro's/Con's with Iron Hands? Right now its between those 2 legions.

[1ncarnadine]

And what are the Pro's/Con's with Iron Hands? Right now its between those 2 legions.

 

Pros: Solid gaming rules, cool robot parts, highly flexible morality

 

Cons: Endless headless Primarch jokes

[Lord Asvaldir]

Iron Hands are also a very solid legion rules wise, -1 strength when shooting at them is just really good no matter what list you want to use. However, they are more restrictive than Sons of Horus due to the rigid tactics rule, which means you can't have more jump infantry/bikes/jet bikes than normal infantry. Means rites of war like angels wrath or some of the newer ones are not usable by Iron Hands. If you want to go mechanized though, Iron Hands are one of the best legions for massed tanks, and they are also good at large infantry armies. You also have a lot more access to mechanicum units than any other legion if you'd like to go down that route. 

 

Personally I prefer Sons of Horus because it's more in line with my play style and I like the lore more, but for you it really comes down to your personal preferences. The good news is game wise whichever legion you choose you have solid legion rules with good list options. 

[ThatOneMarshal]

Well to paraphrase our resident Iron Hands, Wolf Pack, The Flesh is Weak. So that's always a plus.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, here is a question for the loyalists: which loyalist Legion is the most tactically adaptable?

 

By that I mean which is decent with multiple play styles (infantry, mech, drop pods and so forth) as opposed to excelling with one but sucking with others, and which has the best options for adapting mid game as opposed to being constrained to a certain MO.

 

Cheers ;)

[Doctor Perils]

Okay, here is a question for the loyalists: which loyalist Legion is the most tactically adaptable?

 

By that I mean which is decent with multiple play styles (infantry, mech, drop pods and so forth) as opposed to excelling with one but sucking with others, and which has the best options for adapting mid game as opposed to being constrained to a certain MO.

 

Cheers ;)

I think the posterboys are well known for tactical and strategic flexibility, though imperial fists and dark angels are also reputedly good in battle, with perhaps a greater emphasis on close combat.

 

Arguably, all legions are good at everything, so look at other kinds of arguments then tactical flexibility :)

[Xenith]

Crisis of confidence:

 

Do I continue with Alpha Legion, or make a Blood Angel Legion Force?

 

I've started Alpha Legion as a test of my painting, and like the very different play style they offer.

 

I have a lot of BA in 40k already, but it might be nice to have tanks and stuff transferable for bigger games, and Legion stuff can go with my 40k BA.